Paralambanetai

[Hidden In Him]

How do you explain that both beasts in Revelation 19 are cast alive into the LOF?

You know what... that's actually an excellent question. ἀναιρέω in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 is sometimes translated "annul, or abrogate," and this would fit well with the second clause in the phrase, in that the Lord will also "depose [him] with the brightness of His coming..." Neither in this case would literally mean "destroys" him, but rather "invalidates his reign". In other words, since the Antichrist would exalt himself above everything that is called God, the breath of Lord's mouth by its very power would prove that the Antichrist was just a mortal man by comparison.

Btw, what's up over at CF.com? Are you still over there or no?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Not Moses. It was the whole Word of God delivered to Moses. Satan started using science/knowledge hundreds of years before Christ was even born. Satan did not just use God's Word concerning the Atonement or even keeping the Law. The very basis of knowledge today in what we call science has removed us so far from God's Word we have Christians accepting theistic evolution. Sure they are not deceived in the Gospel, and not even in eschatology. But creation is where the church has totally been hoodwinked by Satan.

Even the ivy league colleges of the original thirteen colonies in America were bastions of teaching God's Word and spreading the gospel. What do they do today? To many Moses is just a myth, and the Exodus never even happened. All just human imagination to spread feel good stories to our naive young ones. Who then grow up trusting humanism and everything else besides God's Word.

Well yes, I agree that today things are much worse than simply apostatizing from Moses. I was simply making a case for the way that verse should be rightly translated.

 

[Truth7t7]

Ezekiel 21 is God telling Israel they were about to be cut-off or going into bondage in Babylon for 70 years. So, because of the wicked peoples sins the Righteous also had to suffer. Daniel was carried away to Babylon. Many righteous men were not doubt enslaved and killed because of the wicked peoples continual sins against God. Its context, context, context.



No, it concerning the Day of the Lord God's Wrath (which they were afraid of) but I point out he's POINTING unto the Gathering unto Christ thus I point out he's pointing unto the Rapture which must happen first. Let me take out the Rapture(Gathering) part out and show you what his CONCERN really is. They wrote different from the way we write. And different languages, even today when translated confuses people. Beseech simply means we ask you urgently.

2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, ()2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

NOW THINK OF THE PART IN PARENTHISIS. (by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,)

So now INSERT the parenthetical citation into the above verse, see how he's really speaking about their FEAR of being in the Day of the Lord God's Wrath? But points out IN PARENTHISIS why they should not fear?

Paul wants them to know why he's asking them NOT TO FEAR !! The Rapture is what they need to look for, because the Day of the Lord (God's Wrath) must be preceded by The Rapture (DEPARTURE) and then the Coming Anti-Christ. Well, since we leave at the Rapture, why would you think I am suggesting that Paul was telling the Thessalonians to look for the Anti-Christ? We will be gone at the Rapture, then the Man of Sin comes, but BOTH THINGS must happen before the DOTL comes.

So, Paul was only trying to allay their fears that they were in the DOTL by showing them two things which must happen before the DOTL happens. The Rapture (Departure) and the Man of Sin, thus they could not be in the coming Day of the Lord.

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture of the Church to heaven found in scripture, it's one of many fairy tales taught by John N. Darby 1830's and supported by C.I. Scofield in his 1909 reference bible

 

[Truth7t7]

You know what... that's actually an excellent question. ἀναιρέω in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 is sometimes translated "annul, or abrogate," and this would fit well with the second clause in the phrase, in that the Lord will also "depose [him] with the brightness of His coming..." Neither in this case would literally mean "destroys" him, but rather "invalidates his reign". In other words, since the Antichrist would exalt himself above everything that is called God, the breath of Lord's mouth by its very power would prove that the Antichrist was just a mortal man by comparison.

Btw, what's up over at CF.com? Are you still over there or no?

Daniel 7:11KJV
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Truth7t7]

I see God being the restrainer in the Holy Spirit Who guards us. He becomes out of the midst when that role is no longer needed, as I see it.

Much love!

Pure opinion in speculation found no place in scripture

 

[Hidden In Him]

"For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man (Satan/Pan) who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom. He (Satan/Pan) will oppose himself to everything that people call a god or make an object of worship; he (Satan/Pan) will put himself above them all, so that he (Satan/Pan) will sit in the Temple of God and proclaim that he himself is God. Don’t you remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is restraining, so that he may be revealed in his own time. For already this separating from Torah is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way. Then the one (the FP) who embodies separation from Torah will be revealed, the one (the FP) whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the glory of his coming. When this man (the FP) who avoids Torah comes, the Adversary (Satan/Pan) will give him (the FP) the power to work all kinds of false miracles, signs and wonders. He (Satan/Pan) will enable him (the FP) to deceive, in all kinds of wicked ways, those who are headed for destruction because they would not receive the love of the truth that could have saved them. This is why God is causing them to go astray, so that they will believe the Lie. The result will be that all who have not believed the truth, but have taken their pleasure in wickedness, will be condemned."

Too far afield for me. For one it turns Satan being a "man" into figurative language, and for another the rest of the passage then becomes unnatural. It would do Satan, an angelic being, no good to sit in the temple of God without actually manifesting himself visibly to the world, otherwise no one would even know he was doing so. A true man in the flesh, however, would very naturally be visible to the world.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yeah, I've got all that. I've studied this a fair amount. And it goes a little further than just simple usage of the time, you've got to take into account how Paul wrote.

The word was used a lot for rebellion in the LXX, not even apostasy as we think of it, but the classical use was departure, and everywhere else in the Bible where the different forms are used, it means depart. The one other NT place is in the accusation that Paul taught "rebellion/departure" from Moses.

And in fact, it says, apostasia from Moses, that is, "departure from Moses", rather than apostasia against Moses", or, "rebellion against Moses".

And there is that place in "The Birds", from Aristophanes, I think it is, the apostasia when the two humans would fly away to the bird city in the sky.

That's kind of summary, anyway.

Much love!

Apostasia is the root word for the english Apostasy, with departure, defection, and falling away, being from the teachings of Moses or a faith once held, it's that simple

The teaching of Apostasia being a pre-trib rapture is laughable, not even in the ball park

Merriam-Webster
Definition of apostasy

1: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith
2: abandonment of a previous loyalty : DEFECTION

History and Etymology for apostasy
Middle English apostasie, borrowed from Anglo-French, borrowed from Late Latin apostasia, borrowed from Greek apostasía "defection, revolt, (Septuagint) rebellion against God" (Late Greek, "defection, apostasy"), variant (with -ia -IA entry 1) of apóstasis, from aposta-, variant stem of aphístamai, aphístasthai "to stand away from, keep aloof from, revolt," middle voice of aphístēmi, aphistánai "to put away, remove, cause to revolt"

 

[Hidden In Him]

No, Paul pointed back unto a particular Departing by using a definite article. Instead of rehashing that point again I will repost to see if you can understand why I say Paul is pointing back unto the very first verse.

..........One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”................

So I already answered this

Ronald, how does the presence of the definite article refute my argument in any way? Of course the apostasy will be a specific event, it is described in Matthew 24:15-22 as such, and likewise in Daniel 7. Claiming that the definite article proves the translation has to be "departure" is so obscure I can't even make out how it's relevant to the present discussion.

The first 7 English translations had Departure.

You are basing your interpretation on early English translations at the expense of the original texts? This does not make for a strong argument, Ronald.

The Latin Vulgate had discessio which means departure from 400 AD.

Discessio also means "dispersal," and this is what the abomination of desolation will create; it will disperse the Jews in every direction as they are fleeing from the city during the apostasy.

Ronald, if "departure" was how the early church was reading this verse, why would Chrysostom (whose writing were contemporary with the writing of the Vulgate) write the following concerning 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4:

Here he discourses concerning the Antichrist, and reveals great mysteries. What is the falling away? He calls him Apostasy, as being about to destroy many, and make them fall away. So that if it were possible, He says, the very Elect should be offended. From Matthew 24:24 And he calls him the man of sin. For he shall do numberless mischiefs, and shall cause others to do them. But he calls him the son of perdition, because he is also to be destroyed. But who is he? Is it then Satan? By no means; but some man, that admits his fully working in him. For he is a man. And exalts himself against all that is called God or is worshipped. (Homilies on 2 Thessalonians)

The Anti-Christ is not the focus at all brother

Yes, it is. Their fears are referenced only once in v.2. The Antichrist is referenced in v.3, v.4, v.5, v.6, v.7 v.8 and v.9, which is the majority of the Chapter. I don't have time to go through how every single one of those verses is actually a reference to the Antichrist, but even should you eliminate v.6-7, arguing that the dominant theme of the Chapter is something referenced only once in an opening verse, yet something referenced over and over again over a long succession of succeeding verses is not is a weak argument, IMO.

But see it as you wish. I don't think you are making very strong cases on any of this.

 

[Hidden In Him]

One of the names of the antichrist is THE SYRIAN - is Putin from Syria?

I wasn't making the argument that he is the Antichrist, Curtis. I was simply telling SBG that she wouldn't be the first to have wondered about the man. Im sure most Ukrainians have likely thought about it for a second or two themselves, LoL.

Born in Leningrad.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Not "Syrian" but "Assyrian". Which would mean from iraq, not Syria. The Antichrist will be a renegade Jew.

I don't agree with the renegade Jew part, but him being an Iraqi or Iranian is interesting. Both countries are 99% Muslim, whereas Syria is only 87%.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There is a verse that says, pray that you will be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are to come and to stand before the son of man. It seems to tie in to: “away from and stand” in the verse we are discussing.

 

[Truth7t7]

There is a verse that says, pray that you will be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are to come and to stand before the son of man. It seems to tie in to: “away from and stand9 in the verse we are discussing.

The Church will "escape" the time of the Lords indignation upon the world as seen below

Isaiah 26:20-21 below clearly shows the hour of earth's temptation, and the church is instructed to enter the dwelling place until the indignation is past, just like the passover in Egypt, God's Divine protection

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There will be some believers beheaded during the tribulation. They are under the altar in heaven in Revelation and we are told they came out of the tribulation. What I try to do is not make assumptions and say, therefore, all will go into the tribulation. I do think we will be left if we need more testing to come out pure in trust.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I guess it’s a good time to bring up the Ezekiel verse that has disturbed me for a long time, the one that says, now I will destroy the righteous along with the wicked. I finally just assumed it had to be a mistranslation. It’s either that or I am really, really missing something.

So I finally rooted around a little bit about this. The Septuagint does not say the same thing in this verse…

 

[Nancy]

So I finally rooted around a little bit about this. The Septuagint does not say the same thing in this verse…

What DOES it say?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well, near as I can understand, the very first Septuagint was the first ever translation of the Hebrew Pentateuch into Greek done by a group of 70 or 72 Jewish men for the personal library of an Egyptian ruler. Modern Septuagints are culled from many early and reliable Hebrew to Greek manuscripts, but a letter was found that spoke of the first one.

Anyway, a septuagint I found (Bretons? Brentons?) says: Behold, I am against thee, and I will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and I will destroy out of thee the transgressor and unrighteous. 4Because I will destroy out of thee the unrighteous and the transgressor, therefore so shall my sword come forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north:

It’s really the only thing that makes everything God has done in the past make sense. And even in other places IN Ezekiel.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Anyway, considering the first one was done by 72 Jewish men, it holds some authority to me. I could try to look into the original Hebrew too…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No, that didn’t help. It says saddiq, which means righteous.

But it does not fit with God (who never changes) in the past - with Noah, with Lot.
It doesn’t fit for God to get angry and destroy men who are righteous in His wrath.

 

[marks]

Pure opinion in speculation found no place in scripture

Correct!

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

There will be some believers beheaded during the tribulation. They are under the altar in heaven in Revelation and we are told they came out of the tribulation. What I try to do is not make assumptions and say, therefore, all will go into the tribulation. I do think we will be left if we need more testing to come out pure in trust.

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven found in scripture

The church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation and second coming just as scripture teaches below

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.