Paralambanetai

[Hidden In Him]

Nah. It would be perfectly valid to say: he tries to convince people to depart from Moses, separate from Moses, leave Moses. I think depart is valid no matter WHICH way you see it.

:) Apostatize is the more accurate translation, because that is more specifically what he means, were you even to use the word "depart." Same with "fall away." What the translators meant by those words was apostatize, as my quote from Chrysostom shows.

 

[Truth7t7]

Im not sure. I’m not at all well read on dispensationalism. I do believe there will be a time of a greatly improved (though not perfect) thousand years on earth. It says there will be no war during that time but there will still be some arguments, which Jesus will settle. And some men will still die it says, and a man who dies at 100 will be considered a youth, but others will outlast the work of their hands. (I always think houses there, that men will live longer than the houses they build will last.) So, greatly improved, but not yet perfect.

I do also believe a time of terrible testing is coming on the whole world to test all its people and that we are to pray we be accounted worthy to escape that time of testing and stand before Jesus.

Escape all these things, what things?

 

[marks]

Aristophanes now becomes scripture, and the Strongs concordance for definition, Big Smiles!

Is that what I said? No.

Does your ridicule accomplish anything? I'm guessing you feel better about yourself.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Just as Apostasia is depart, separate, leave, from a faith or belief once held, used only 2 times in the NT, with exactly the same meaning

From what I read, it doesn’t necessarily have to follow that it’s specifically a departure from faith in God. It could be a departure like…the departure of the restrainer/Holy Spirit, as verse 7 seems to tie in with verse 3 in my opinion.

 

[Truth7t7]

Is that what I said? No.

Does your ridicule accomplish anything? I'm guessing you feel better about yourself.

Much love!

No ridicule whatsoever, you mentioned Aristophanes, and I mentioned his profession in context to your claims made, comedy is a big understatement regarding claims of a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Escape all these things, what things?

The wrath of God and the Lamb.

 

[Truth7t7]

From what I read, it doesn’t necessarily have to follow that it’s specifically a departure from faith in God. It could be a departure like…the departure of the restrainer/Holy Spirit, as verse 7 seems to tie in with verse 3 in my opinion.

The old dispensational teaching in the Holy Spirit being removed from earth was revised in the 1919 editions of the Scofield reference bible, he had to fix the problem of the Holy Spirit being removed, with humans being saved during the tribulation, in which only the Holy Spirit can seal for salvation, that teaching has been gone from mainstream for a long time

 

[Hidden In Him]

My understanding is that in Classic Greek 400 BC or so, that departure was the meaning, and it began to be used for rebellion.

Aristophanes' play, "The Birds", has a couple of humans planning to leave the surface of the earth to fly up to the bird city in the sky, planning their apostasia, their departure.

Much love!

It's plausible enough, only the problem is that you run up against the predominant usage in the LXX and the New Testament, or in other words, how religious Jews were using this phrase consistently in late antiquity. And what that means is that even if it originally was used of general departures or disappearances among the Greeks, it had taken on religious connotations among the Jews by the time Paul was writing 2 Thessalonians.

I think the case is stronger for apostasy. Maybe one of us should get off our duff and cite the uses of the LXX, though I'm guessing it will have to be me because the LXX uses appear to further strength my argument.

 

[marks]

It's plausible enough, only the problem is that you run up against the predominant usage in the LXX and the New Testament, or in other words, how religious Jews were using this phrase consistently in late antiquity. And what that means is that even if it originally was used of general departures or disappearances, it had taken on religious connotations among the Jews by the time Paul was writing 2 Thessalonians.

I think the case is stronger for apostasy. Maybe one of us should get off our duff and cite the uses of the LXX, though I'm guessing it will have to be me because the LXX uses appear to further strength my argument.

I've already noted that the LXX usage leans to rebellion. I know that.

Look at how Paul quoted the poets and writers of the times. Aristophane's plays were in production in those days. He was like the Shakespear of that time.

Paul was writing to the Thessalonian Christians, not to a Jewish audience. And Thessalonika was a cultural center.

Anyway, I think I've contributed what I'm able on this topic. As always, most interesting!

Much love!

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Yes, he highlighted the departure from the faith of Christianity also known as the Apostasy.

Strong's definition:

G646 apostasia

ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”) : - falling away, forsake.

Total KJV occurrences: 2


Thayer's Definition:

G646 apostasia

1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647

Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

Total KJV occurrences: 2



Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament:

Apostasia

defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. ?p?stas?? , freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.


Liddell and Scott:

A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3 .


Liddell, Scott, Jones Ancient Greek Lexicon (LSJ):


apostasia
I a departure from one's religion, apostasy , Salv. Gub. Dei, 6, p. 128; Aug. c. Jul. 56.

apostasia apostasiae N F :: apostasy, departure from one's religion, repudiation of one's faith



Winer's Grammar:

Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36 29 ) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).


greeklexicon.org (Greek-English lexicon):


G646 apostasia

Part(s) of speech: Noun, Feminine

Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

Its The DEPARURE of the Church. You just wasted a lot of writing, I understand what it has come to be seen as with a BAD TRANSLATION in 1611.

 

[marks]

No ridicule whatsoever,

Honesty and sincerity go a long way with me.

I cited historical usage. You didn't have to respond.

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

The wrath of God and the Lamb.

So you follow pre-wrath and not pre-trib?

What do you set as a guideline for pre-wrath, the 6th seal?

This pre-wrath teaching is new to me?

 

[Truth7t7]

Honesty and sincerity go a long way with me.

I cited historical usage. You didn't have to respond.

Much love!

Of course forums are a place to respond to posters, and it was comical to say the least

 

[stunnedbygrace]

:) Apostatize is the more accurate translation, because that is more specifically what he means, were you even to use the word "depart." Same with "fall away." What the translators meant by those words was apostatize, as my quote from Chrysostom shows.

I am more convinced otherwise. I think he used the noun instead of the verb to denote a specific event, not something that occurs and always has occurred in a waxing and waning way over the space of hundreds of years.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So you follow pre-wrath and not pre-trib?

I don’t know…

 

[Hidden In Him]

I've already noted that the LXX usage leans to rebellion. I know that.

Look at how Paul quoted the poets and writers of the times. Aristophane's plays were in production in those days. He was like the Shakespear of that time.

Paul was writing to the Thessalonian Christians, not to a Jewish audience. And Thessalonika was a cultural center.

Again, plausible but less likely. Yes, Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles, but his ministry was in teaching them about the scriptures and prophecies of the Jews, and this is the background for his teaching in 2 Thessalonians 2. The apostasy was a theological concept the Jews had long held to, as it was foreshadowed by Antiochus, and then referenced again by Jesus, as spoken of in Daniel, where it is stated that the little horn would set up the abomination that causes desolation, and "wear out" the saints.

Yeah, I think I'm done with this one as well. It's "played out." Get it? Played out... I'm here all week <snare and crash>

Check you later. Good discussion.
- H

 

[marks]

From what I read, it doesn’t necessarily have to follow that it’s specifically a departure from faith in God. It could be a departure like…the departure of the restrainer/Holy Spirit, as verse 7 seems to tie in with verse 3 in my opinion.

That's one of the reasons I think as I do on this. If we're talking about a departure from the faith, how is this a precursor? Since there has been apostasy from the faith all along. But there will only be ONE departure of the church.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yeah, I think I'm done with this one as well. It's "played out." Get it? Played out... I'm here all week <snare and crash>

Groan!!!

Love you!

 

[marks]

not something that occurs and always has occurred in a waxing and waning way over the space of hundreds of years.

That's a good way to put this.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The old dispensational teaching in the Holy Spirit being removed from earth was revised in the 1919 editions of the Scofield reference bible, he had to fix the problem of the Holy Spirit being removed, with humans being saved during the tribulation, in which only the Holy Spirit can seal for salvation, that teaching has been gone from mainstream for a long time

Oh, I don’t know about any of that. I just think the restrainer is God, who is Spirit.
There will be 2 witnesses during part of the tribulation. The Holy Spirit is with them. Not sure the Holy Spirits removal or stepping out of the way has to mean He can’t still be wherever He wants or can’t return…