Paralambanetai

[Ronald D Milam]

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture of the Church to heaven found in scripture, it's one of many fairy tales taught by John N. Darby 1830's and supported by C.I. Scofield in his 1909 reference bible

You are going to be in it whether you like it or not, I hope I am right beside you (In spirit........our bodies do not leave earth, that's a myth) and then on the way I will just give you that look and smile.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

The Church will "escape" the time of the Lords indignation upon the world as seen below

Isaiah 26:20-21 below clearly shows the hour of earth's temptation, and the church is instructed to enter the dwelling place until the indignation is past, just like the passover in Egypt, God's Divine protection

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Read that carefully, that is about Israel who flees Judea. The Church is in Heaven, but even though I used to say that was about the Church I realized I was in error.

Gone to Cotsco, pray for me guys, its like a riot in there on the 1st.

 

[ScottA]

At no time did I state "Satan Was A Man" as you claim, however the (Man Of Sin) will be a future human man as scripture clearly teaches

It might be your opinion that the "He" "Himself" is Satan, but I strongly disagree

The scripture is very simple and easy to understand

We disagree, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 speaks of a singular man (Man Of Sin) "He" "Himself" Singular, and this is a future event unfulfilled, when he will be revealed in Jerusalem

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Let's look at it:

1. In your statement above, where did you get "future" from?

2. Who in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 do you say is "the son of perdition?"​

3. Who do you say are the sons of their "father the devil?" John 8:44​

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I do always wonder about in the messages to the churches, the 10 days of being thrown into prison…

 

[Truth7t7]

If we're talking about a departure from the faith, how is this a precursor? Since there has been apostasy from the faith all along. But there will only be ONE departure of the church.

Much love!

And it wont be a departure of the Church to heaven in a pre-trib rapture

To even think a suggestion would even be claimed of a pre-trib rapture, when the english Apostasy finds its foundation if the Greek Apostasia, Real Big Smiles!

Merriam-Webster
Definition of apostasy

1: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith
2: abandonment of a previous loyalty : DEFECTION

History and Etymology for apostasy
Middle English apostasie, borrowed from Anglo-French, borrowed from Late Latin apostasia, borrowed from Greek apostasía "defection, revolt, (Septuagint) rebellion against God" (Late Greek, "defection, apostasy"), variant (with -ia -IA entry 1) of apóstasis, from aposta-, variant stem of aphístamai, aphístasthai "to stand away from, keep aloof from, revolt," middle voice of aphístēmi, aphistánai "to put away, remove, cause to revolt"

 

[Truth7t7]

Let's look at it:

1. In your statement above, where did you get "future" from?

2. Who in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 do you say is "the son of perdition?"​

3. Who do you say are the sons of their "father the devil?" John 8:44​

Future is clearly defined in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 as it describes the second coming and resurrection, do you believe this has taken place in history?

2 Thessalonians 2:1KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

 

[ScottA]

I do always wonder about in the messages to the churches, the 10 days of being thrown into prison…

"Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life." Revelation 2:10
​

The passage reveals the answer: It equates "tribulation ten days" with "until death." This is to say "all." In this case, it would mean: all of your time before dying.

 

[Truth7t7]

Read that carefully, that is about Israel who flees Judea. The Church is in Heaven, but even though I used to say that was about the Church I realized I was in error.

Gone to Cotsco, pray for me guys, its like a riot in there on the 1st.

Isaiah 26:20 is Gods divine protection of the Church on earth, there is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven as you claim

 

[ScottA]

Future is clearly defined in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 as it describes the second coming and resurrection, do you believe this has taken place in history?

2 Thessalonians 2:1KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That does not say "future." You are only assuming it to mean future.

But, no, I do not "believe" this has taken place in history, as Paul spoke against. But he also gives the correct answer, saying, "each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming." The order of which is to "each" when Christ comes to "each"..."in his own order." Which is not to say Christ comes to all at some "future" date, but that He comes to each in their own order. In other words, to those whom Christ entered into in the past, it was in the past, and to those He comes into in the future it is in the future. Which date(s) it would be incorrect to say had "already come." He made that clear. But it is equally wrong to say, Christ has not yet come to those He has already come to in their "own order" now past, of whom He was the First.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So you follow pre-wrath and not pre-trib?

What do you set as a guideline for pre-wrath, the 6th seal?

This pre-wrath teaching is new to me?

Lol. I have no idea…I have it in my mind that our gathering comes before the time of testing/tribulation coming on the world as we are told to pray we’re accounted worthy to escape it. But I also think…some who need more testing to come out pure will be left and they learn the obedience of trust and become saints. I think the saints rule with Jesus over the nations during the thousand years.

What little I read in the past about different views all seemed to have some things not quite right to me from what I remember…I’m convinced that every prophetic verse has to be properly placed, is it Pretrib, during trib, premillenium, millenium, after millenium. And I think all the views place some of them in the wrong place and I think too many assumptions are made and more careful reading is needed. Without assumptions.

I can’t work it all out. Just some of it. I do know the more I read, the more I see there is absolutely a gathering and it’s hidden in plain sight in many places and also fits with the OT. When I first began to read I kept having such confusion over which it was, were the righteous removed or were the wicked removed?? Then I saw that it was both. In different timeframes. For instance, in Rev, the earth is reaped twice. The first one doesn’t sound unpleasant. The second one, where the wicked are removed sounds terrifying. I think the first is the gathering together and the second is when the wicked are removed.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

"Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life." Revelation 2:10
​

The passage reveals the answer: It equates "tribulation ten days" with "until death." This is to say "all." In this case, it would mean: all of your time before dying.

Tsk. So ten days means all days…? You’re too far out there for me Scott.

 

[ScottA]

Tsk. So ten days means all days…? You’re too far out there for me Scott.

The renewing of our mind...means to understand the things of time from the timelessness of our eternal God.

These words (such as "ten days" in that passage) are simply God doing the opposite for us--speaking to us from our own perspective--because we are babes. But baby talk is not "all truth", which even the apostles of Jesus "could not yet bear." But we are to "press on" to press into it and learn of all things from God's perspective, rather than that of this world. His kingdom is not of this world...nor should we continue as if it were, considering all things from a worldly perspective.

Here is another: "a thousand years." ...what is a thousand years to God? Peter says "one day." But even that is to children who are not ready to hear that there are no days in the reality of God-- "no shadow of turning." Thus, neither is completely true, but the term is used as baby talk regarding things that would otherwise be stated as: always or forever.​

 

[Truth7t7]

That does not say "future." You are only assuming it to mean future.

But, no, I do not "believe" this has taken place in history, as Paul spoke against. But he also gives the correct answer, saying, "each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming." The order of which is to "each" when Christ comes to "each"..."in his own order." Which is not to say Christ comes to all at some "future" date, but that He comes to each in their own order. In other words, to those whom Christ entered into in the past, it was in the past, and to those He comes into in the future it is in the future. Which date(s) it would be incorrect to say had "already come." He made that clear. But it is equally wrong to say, Christ has not yet come to those He has already come to in their "own order" now past, of whom He was the First.

You dont believe 2 Thessalonians 2:1 states future, but you believe it's future because the events seen in the second coming and resurrection haven't happened in history, smiles!

Then you hide the complete context of 1 Corinthians 15:23 without posting verse 24

Yes it clearly states at the event of the second coming "Then Cometh The End" a future event unfulfilled

1 Corinthians 15:23-24KJV
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

 

[Truth7t7]

Lol. I have no idea…I have it in my mind that our gathering comes before the time of testing/tribulation coming on the world as we are told to pray we’re accounted worthy to escape it. But I also think…some who need more testing to come out pure will be left and they learn the obedience of trust and become saints. I think the saints rule with Jesus over the nations during the thousand years.

What little I read in the past about different views all seemed to have some things not quite right to me from what I remember…I’m convinced that every prophetic verse has to be properly placed, is it Pretrib, during trib, premillenium, millenium, after millenium. And I think all the views place some of them in the wrong place and I think too many assumptions are made and more careful reading is needed. Without assumptions.

I can’t work it all out. Just some of it. I do know the more I read, the more I see there is absolutely a gathering and it’s hidden in plain sight in many places and also fits with the OT. When I first began to read I kept having such confusion over which it was, were the righteous removed or were the wicked removed?? Then I saw that it was both. In different timeframes. For instance, in Rev, the earth is reaped twice. The first one doesn’t sound unpleasant. The second one, where the wicked are removed sounds terrifying. I think the first is the gathering together and the second is when the wicked are removed.

Thanks for your detailed explanation, your belief is closely following dispensationalism's teachings regarding a pre-trib rapture and a Millennial Kingdom on this earth

 

[ewq1938]

Its The DEPARURE of the Church.

No, it's departure FROM the church.

 

[ScottA]

You dont believe 2 Thessalonians 2:1 states future, but you believe it's future because the events seen in the second coming and resurrection haven't happened in history, smiles!

Then you hide the complete context of 1 Corinthians 15:23 without posting verse 24

Yes it clearly states at the event of the second coming "Then Cometh The End" a future event unfulfilled

1 Corinthians 15:23-24KJV
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Please speak for yourself.

But, no, you are again assuming vs. 24 means "future." It does not. This you apparently do because you do not recognize what the end of the flesh is or the death of the old man, as Paul explained. It is not necessarily the end of the world or death of the natural man as many believe, but the end of the old man--which marks the beginning of the new man born of the spirit of God. To the man of God, this is conception.

In which case, every reference to "future", must be likewise corrected to align with the eternal, rather than the world as it turns in shadow.

 

[Truth7t7]

Please speak for yourself.

But, no, you are again assuming vs. 24 means "future." It does not. This you apparently do because you do not recognize what the end of the flesh is or the death of the old man, as Paul explained. It is not necessarily the end of the world or death of the natural man as many believe, but the end of the old man--which marks the beginning of the new man born of the spirit of God. To the man of God, this is conception.

In which case, every reference to "future", must be likewise corrected to align with the eternal, rather than the world as it turns in shadow.

We Disagree

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[marks]

Then I saw that it was both. In different timeframes.

Yes!

:)

 

[ewq1938]

That's one of the reasons I think as I do on this. If we're talking about a departure from the faith, how is this a precursor? Since there has been apostasy from the faith all along. But there will only be ONE departure of the church.

Because it will involve a huge amount of Christians and they will be falling away to the false Christ, notably the last false Christ in a line of false christs. This last one will be the only one that will be able to perform miracles to deceive people into falling away to him.

Look at the context:


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Here the second coming is called "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and the rapture is called "our gathering together unto him".

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

This day of Christ is directly linked to the two events of verse 1. Clearly the day of Christ is the day of the second coming and rapture. Paul wants people NOT to be troubled or confused about when these two events happen.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Do not let anyone deceive you about when those two events happen! That day (second coming and rapture) will NOT take place until the Apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin take place and those are great tribulation related events. This proves that Paul placed the rapture after the events of the great tribulation and it's the second time Paul did this. He did the same here:



2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (also known as the second coming) , and by our gathering together unto him, (reference to the Rapture)

There is a reference to the second coming and the Rapture! That's the subject!

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

A second second coming reference!


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

That is the Antichrist! Claiming to be God causes the Apostasy or departing from the Christian faith and that takes place withing the great Tribulation. Paul teaches that the second coming and Rapture will NOT happen until the Apostasy and revealing of the man of sin happens plus he mentions that this man of sin will show himself as God and we know that happening during the great tribulation.


2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The context is regarding the timing of the return of Christ and the rapture. That cannot happen until two important things occur.

1. The falling away/Apostasy
2. and the revealing of the Antichrist

Obviously it is the man of sin's appearance which causes the falling away because they fall away from Christ to him, the AC or false christ.


So it hasn't happened and isn't happening now. The AC must appear which will be a global event, then those who had followed Christ will follow the AC. Why? IMO he will claim to be Christ so they won't realize they have fallen away from Christ. This happened during the tribulation and as Christ states in Matthew, the second coming is not until the trib has ended.
Why did Paul even write this? Because people were concerned Jesus could just return at any moment without any warning (like a thief in the night) and Paul wanted to clarify that certain events had to happen first. Paul accidentally started the notion of the second coming happening at any time which is the basis for the pre-trib doctrine.

Contextually Paul was not speaking of a long period of falling away. It was a special event where people would stop being Christians and have a new God to worship and it is tied directly to the tribulation and the AC claiming to be God! Clearly it is when people are deceived and begin worshiping the AC because they think he is God. I believe many Christians will think he is Jesus Christ and won't realize they committed Apostasy.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This has not yet happened but it is coming. Remember that the falling away is directly related to someone claiming to be God. They "fall away" to that false god.

Remember Christ's warning:


Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


There will come a time when people will believe Jesus has returned but it will be a false Christ.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


Here the Apostasy is said to happen in the "latter times" as opposed to over a long span of time. This places it at the great tribulation which also is a certain period of time just before the second coming.

 

[marks]

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

A second second coming reference!

So then here is my question for you.

IF the Christians Paul was writing to thought that they would be gathered to Christ when the Day of the Lord came, why would they be distressed by someone telling them the day of the Lord had arrived?

The reason they would be distressed is that they expected to be gathered to Christ before the day of wrath was here. So Paul assures them, that day shall not come but the departure come first.

Much love!