Thinking of Converting to Catholicism

[aspen]

-- Try to focus, Aspen. You make the accusation, but you provided ZERO information to validate your accusation.

Or, to rephrase: You said I was wrong, but you provided NOTHING to actually show/prove I was wrong.


How much more specific do I need to get?

I asked you a simple question Foreigner. Why are you getting all defensive? I am not accusing you of anything. No need to play games with me - I just want to know why you are misrepresenting Catholic doctrine. The evidence is contained in your posts - here is one example for you to explain away:

1. "[font="tahoma][size="2"]It is ALSO the Catholic Church that claims that Mary never died but bodily ascended into heaven." False.[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]Then in the same post, you quote "[/size][/font][font="tahoma][size="2"]Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus, said this of Mary: "after the completion of her earthyly life, was assumed body and soul[/size][/font][font="tahoma][size="2"] into the glory of heaven."[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma] [/font][/color]
[color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma][size="2"]There is a big difference between being taken up to Heaven by God and ascending to Heaven under your own power. Catholic doctrine teaches Mary was taken up to Heaven, just like Elijah.[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma] [/font][/color]
[color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma][size="2"]I accept your apology.[/size][/font]

 

[Templar81]

I've been re-thinking thigs and I've coem to the conclusion that even though I lvoe the Catholic church and may one day join, It isn't the right time. I think the good old CofE needs all hands on deck

 

[Foreigner]

Templar, you have made the right decision.
You may have just preserved your salvation.

 

[aspen]

Templar, you have made the right decision.
You may have just preserved your salvation.

LOL....since when do conservative Christians believe the Anglican church, where practicing homosexuals are ordained as priests and bishops and whose leader is a Druid, is more capable than the Catholic Church of preserving a person's salvation?

 

[Foreigner]

Any faith that teaches you should spend your prayer time on your knees talking to someone OTHER than Jesus is leading you astray.
Please note that Templar didn't say his search was over just because he won't become a Catholic.
As a matter of fact, his search just took a step in the right direction. Away from quicksand.




.

 

[aspen]

Any faith that teaches you should spend your prayer time on your knees talking to someone OTHER than Jesus is leading you astray.

I'll remember that when I go to my Protestant Bible Study tonight and we share prayer requests with each other and then pray together.

Also, you reasoning is flawed. Simply because you disagree with Catholic doctrine, doesn't make the Anglican church a better option.

 

[Foreigner]

"Sharing prayer requests with each other" is quite different than praying to Mary or the saints in heaven asking them to speak to the Father on your behalf.
If you don't get that, that is your issue.

Jesus said he is our brother, joint heir and direct intercessor. To speak to someone other than him in prayer is wrong.
Again, if you don't get that, that is your issue.

No one said the Anglican church was better. But Templar is searching. Skipping over Catholicism is the first correct step.

 

[aspen]

"Sharing prayer requests with each other" is quite different than praying to Mary or the saints in heaven asking them to speak to the Father on your behalf.
If you don't get that, that is your issue.

Jesus said he is our brother, joint heir and direct intercessor. To speak to someone other than him in prayer is wrong.
Again, if you don't get that, that is your issue.

No one said the Anglican church was better. But Templar is searching. Skipping over Catholicism is the first correct step.

Actually, I have no issue with asking for prayer from the entire Body of Christ - neither does the Bible.

What is his second step?

 

[Templar81]

Well, the Archdruid of Cantabury won't be in office forever and the CofE isn't quite as liberal as its American counterpart. Openly there are some openly gay clergy but they are few and far between but they do still irritate me. Women Bishops, well I'm not sure; if it compromises Apostallic succession then they are not a good thing, if not then I'm indifferent. I used to find women priests a bit strange but I got used to them. Plus, if the diocese doesn't want one then they can state that they will only have a mle Bishop. Also, it wouldn't be right for me to just leave a failing church like that, it would trouble m consience and a troubled consience wouldn't be the best starting block for joining the RCC. I will join the RCC or perhaps and Orthodox CHurch if the CofE is disolved in my lifetime and that friends is a promise.

As far as salvation; the Archdruid of Cantabury doesn't have control of who goes to heaven and who doesn't so he can't take away my salvation and neither can the Holy Father in Rome. Fear not that which destroys the body but that which destroys the soul. Wether I go to Heaven or Hell, it won't be anything to do with the church that I'm a member of but wether or not God wishes me there.

 

[aspen]

Well, the Archdruid of Cantabury won't be in office forever and the CofE isn't quite as liberal as its American counterpart. Openly there are some openly gay clergy but they are few and far between but they do still irritate me. Women Bishops, well I'm not sure; if it compromises Apostallic succession then they are not a good thing, if not then I'm indifferent. I used to find women priests a bit strange but I got used to them. Plus, if the diocese doesn't want one then they can state that they will only have a mle Bishop. Also, it wouldn't be right for me to just leave a failing church like that, it would trouble m consience and a troubled consience wouldn't be the best starting block for joining the RCC. I will join the RCC or perhaps and Orthodox CHurch if the CofE is disolved in my lifetime and that friends is a promise.

As far as salvation; the Archdruid of Cantabury doesn't have control of who goes to heaven and who doesn't so he can't take away my salvation and neither can the Holy Father in Rome. Fear not that which destroys the body but that which destroys the soul. Wether I go to Heaven or Hell, it won't be anything to do with the church that I'm a member of but wether or not God wishes me there.

Yeah, not trying to be critical of the Anglican church, Templar - simply pointing out Foreigner's flawed logic and trying to see if he will admit that according to his understanding of Christianity, the Anglican and Catholic are just as wrong. I think you should be where God wants you to be - it sounds like you are listening to Him and making a good decision!

 

[Foreigner]

Actually, I have no issue with asking for prayer from the entire Body of Christ - neither does the Bible.

-- The Bible NEVER suggests/calls for/implies that we should ask those that have already died to pray for us. Period.

Why? Because getting on your knees and actually using prayer in speaking to someone other than God is a ridiculous thing to do.

It is yet another Catholic belief founded on the opinion of men and not on God.

Either Jesus is the intimate loving brother and intercessor who loved us enough to die for us and hears our every prayer as He sits at the right hand of the father or He isn't.

It is pretty pathetic if a person thinks that they have to pray to someone who is dead instead of Jesus directly hopes that they will lobby for a cause that Jesus already knows is on their heart.

He calls those of us on earth to pray for each other. It is NOT a mandate for those who have already died and gone to heaven.

Again, it is simply a worldly creation via the Catholic church.

Yeah, not trying to be critical of the Anglican church, Templar -

-- Except for the part where you said, "the Anglican church, where practicing homosexuals are ordained as priests and bishops and whose leader is a Druid, is more capable than the Catholic Church of preserving a person's salvation?" right Aspen?:lol:

 

[aspen]

-- The Bible NEVER suggests/calls for/implies that we should ask those that have already died to pray for us. Period.

Are they no longer in the Body of Christ?

Why? Because getting on your knees and actually using prayer in speaking to someone other than God is a ridiculous thing to do.

Ah...no verse, but Foreigner says it is a ridiculous thing to do....ok, that settles it! LOL

It is yet another Catholic belief founded on the opinion of men and not on God.

Noted.

Either Jesus is the intimate loving brother and intercessor who loved us enough to die for us and hears our every prayer as He sits at the right hand of the father or He isn't.

LOVE those false dichotomies!! Either you believe me or you are complete moron.....ok got it!

It is pretty pathetic if a person thinks that they have to pray to someone who is dead instead of Jesus directly hopes that they will lobby for a cause that Jesus already knows is on their heart.

Hmm... does that mean your god is the god of the dead? Mine is God of the living!

He calls those of us on earth to pray for each other. It is NOT a mandate for those who have already died and gone to heaven.

So you only do the bare minimum? What is mandated?

Again, it is simply a worldly creation via the Catholic church.


Noted.

-- Except for the part where you said, "the Anglican church, where practicing homosexuals are ordained as priests and bishops and whose leader is a Druid, is more capable than the Catholic Church of preserving a person's salvation?" right Aspen?:lol:

- I also believe the Anglican church holds holy orders and is therefore in communion with the Catholic Church. And what do you think, Foreigner? I thought so - I accept your apology!

 

[Foreigner]

"Are they no longer in the Body of Christ?" - Aspen

-- When you ask someone in your prayer group to pray for something, do you get down on your knees, fold your hands, close your eyes, and say "Blessed Leroy, honored by God, please intercede on my behalf?"

Typical Aspen. Wants to spend his prayer time speaking to someone who ISN'T God.




"Ah...no verse, but Foreigner says it is a ridiculous thing to do....ok, that settles it! LOL" - Aspen

-- What do you care? There is no scripture that supoprts the idea of actually praying to someone who ISN'T God, but that doesn't stop you from supporting the idea.
If it's good enough for you....;)




"LOVE those false dichotomies!! Either you believe me or you are complete moron.....ok got it!" - Aspen

-- So, Jesus, having died for your sins, and sitting at the right hand of the Father to be your intercessor....is a false dichotomy?
Believing it is better to pray to Him instead of to someone who ISN'T God...is a false dichotomy?
LOL Brilliant!




"Hmm... does that mean your god is the god of the dead? Mine is God of the living!" - Aspen

-- Ah, yes. The intentional misrepresentation of what was said. It has become your trade mark.

Morphing the questioning of praying to someone who is not God to intercede for you into I am saying God is dead.
Aspen, you are dishonest man.

And you seem to have forgotten the whole rose-from-the-dead-on-the-third-day-and-now-sits-at-the-right-hand-of-the-Father thing.

Him having His Father's ear on our behalf isn't good enough for you, though. You'd rather pray to someone who ISN'T at the right hand of our Father.
Good luck with that.

 

[aspen]

"Are they no longer in the Body of Christ?" - Aspen

-- When you ask someone in your prayer group to pray for something, do you get down on your knees, fold your hands, close your eyes, and say "Blessed Leroy, honored by God, please intercede on my behalf?"

Typical Aspen. Wants to spend his prayer time speaking to someone who ISN'T God.




"Ah...no verse, but Foreigner says it is a ridiculous thing to do....ok, that settles it! LOL" - Aspen

-- What do you care? There is no scripture that supoprts the idea of actually praying to someone who ISN'T God, but that doesn't stop you from supporting the idea.
If it's good enough for you....;)




"LOVE those false dichotomies!! Either you believe me or you are complete moron.....ok got it!" - Aspen

-- So, Jesus, having died for your sins, and sitting at the right hand of the Father to be your intercessor....is a false dichotomy?
Believing it is better to pray to Him instead of to someone who ISN'T God...is a false dichotomy?
LOL Brilliant!




"Hmm... does that mean your god is the god of the dead? Mine is God of the living!" - Aspen

-- Ah, yes. The intentional misrepresentation of what was said. It has become your trade mark.

Morphing the questioning of praying to someone who is not God to intercede for you into I am saying God is dead.
Aspen, you are dishonest man.

And you seem to have forgotten the whole rose-from-the-dead-on-the-third-day-and-now-sits-at-the-right-hand-of-the-Father thing.

Him having His Father's ear on our behalf isn't good enough for you, though. You'd rather pray to someone who ISN'T at the right hand of our Father.
Good luck with that.

All of your responses are simply smoke and mirrors......the fact is the Bible is silent about praying to saints. You've got nothing and you know it. so you decide to slander me - whatever you need to do to save face, Foreigner - I know this is all about ego for you.

Meanwhile, I will continue to pray with and ask for prayer from the entire Body of Christ.

BTW, what were Moses and Elijah doing when they appeared during the Transformation?

[font="Verdana][size="3"]
Matthew 17:3-5
New International Version (NIV)

[sup]3[/sup] Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

[sup]4[/sup] Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

[sup]5[/sup] While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

Apparently, their is nothing wrong with talking with the entire Body of Christ, after all.

[/size][/font]

 

[Foreigner]

All of your responses are simply smoke and mirrors......the fact is the Bible is silent about praying to saints.

-- So, statements of fact that you cannot refute are now to be know by the term...."smoke and mirrors?" I love it.

Strange that the Bible would be completely 'silent' on a topic that is the cornerstone a specific denomination.

Yet Catholics are the same people who say that the concept of the Rapture is wrong because the word "Rapture" isn't found anywhere in the Bible.

Ah, hypocrisy...


The Catholic church bases many of their beliefs on things not found in the Bible.
They choose beliefs based on the opinion of man and not on the guidance of God or His Word.
And, as usual, their excuse is, "Well, the Bible doesn't say it ISN'T true."

- Praying to dead people
- Praying to Mary
- Purgatory
- Mary never having any other children after Jesus was born (although, in this case, the Bible says just the opposite)
- Mary was taken body and spirit into heaven and never actually died
- The Pope is infallible (although the 'original Pope' Peter was 'fallible' enough to deny Christ three times).
- Wearing the Scapular, given to Simon Stock by the 'Blessed Virgin' means that 30 days after you die you will go to heaven.

They are just like homosexuals I have spoken with who say that it was obvious Jesus supported homosexuality because he preached love, and never specifically spoke out against homosexuality during His ministry.

He never spoke out against beating your wife or selling your kids into slavery, either.

You've got nothing and you know it.

-- This from the guy who tried to compare praying to dead people to asking your living friends in a prayer group to pray for something for you.
Pot, meet kettle.:lol:

so you decide to slander me - whatever you need to do to save face, Foreigner - I know this is all about ego for you.

-- This is what you are reduced to, Aspen?
I am sorry that beliefs in your faith do not gel with God's word.
If you wish to follow them, knock yourself out.
But don't insult the intelligence of the rest of the world in an attempt to justify them.

[font="Verdana][size="3"]
BTW, what were Moses and Elijah doing when they appeared during the Transformation?

Matthew 17:3-5
New International Version (NIV)
[sup]3[/sup] Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
[sup]4[/sup] Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
[sup]5[/sup] While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

Apparently, their is nothing wrong with talking with the entire Body of Christ, after all.
[/size][/font]

-- Thank you for this opportunity to educate you once again!

Your question was, "BTW, what were Moses and Elijah doing when they appeared during the Transformation?"

Answer: Talking with Jesus. Just like you and I will do face to face when we are with Him in heaven.

Your attempt at supporting your opinion goes right down the toilet when you note (in the very scripture YOU provided) that neither Moses nor Elijah spoke with Peter or the other disciples.

Once again Aspen, you show that you are not very good at this.

 

[aspen]

-- So, statements of fact that you cannot refute are now to be know by the term...."smoke and mirrors?" I love it.

You mean your opinion?

Strange that the Bible would be completely 'silent' on a topic that is the cornerstone a specific denomination.

If you want to look past the Transfiguration and the fact that we remain united in the Body of Christ even after death....one Body - go ahead, It is not my job to convince you of anything.

Yet Catholics are the same people who say that the concept of the Rapture is wrong because the word "Rapture" isn't found anywhere in the Bible.

I think Catholics could careless if Protestants want to believe in the Rapture - the protests come when Protestants start excluding Catholics. I think the rapture doctrine goes against sola scriptura.

Ah, hypocrisy...

Nope....sorry. Catholics do not believe in sola scriptura.


The Catholic church bases many of their beliefs on things not found [explicitly] in the Bible.


They choose beliefs based on the opinion of man and not on the guidance of God or His Word.

Your opinion

And, as usual, their excuse is, "Well, the Bible doesn't say it ISN'T true."

Your opinion.

- Praying to dead people
- Praying to Mary
- Purgatory
- Mary never having any other children after Jesus was born (although, in this case, the Bible says just the opposite)
- Mary was taken body and spirit into heaven and never actually died
- The Pope is infallible (although the 'original Pope' Peter was 'fallible' enough to deny Christ three times).
- Wearing the Scapular, given to Simon Stock by the 'Blessed Virgin' means that 30 days after you die you will go to heaven.

They are just like homosexuals I have spoken with who say that it was obvious Jesus supported homosexuality because he preached love, and never specifically spoke out against homosexuality during His ministry.

I am not sure why you feel the need to misrepresent Catholicism.

He never spoke out against beating your wife or selling your kids into slavery, either.


It would be much easier to take you seriously if Protestantism actually reformed Christianity - the fact is, Protestantism simply added their own traditions in place of Catholic traditions.

-- This from the guy who tried to compare praying to dead people to asking your living friends in a prayer group to pray for something for you.
Pot, meet kettle.:lol:

There is no difference between asking people who are in the presence of God for prayer and asking Christian friends for prayer - we are all one body.

This is what you are reduced to, Aspen?
I am sorry that beliefs in your faith do not gel with God's word.
If you wish to follow them, knock yourself out.
But don't insult the intelligence of the rest of the world in an attempt to justify them.

Believe me, I do not need your approve to worship God in the manner I am called to worship Him - lol. But I am glad you let yourself off the hook - haha

Thank you for this opportunity to educate you once again!

I am just wondering, how can you fail to see the arrogance in this statement.......

Your question was, "BTW, what were Moses and Elijah doing when they appeared during the Transformation?"
Answer: Talking with Jesus. Just like you and I will do face to face when we are with Him in heaven.

Yet, they were on Earth.....

Your attempt at supporting your opinion goes right down the toilet when you note (in the very scripture YOU provided) that neither Moses nor Elijah spoke with Peter or the other disciples.

Once again Aspen, you show that you are not very good at this.

Jesus is our example.

 

[Foreigner]

"You mean your opinion?" - Aspen

-- It isn't just an opinion if it is supported by facts. Which mine is.




"It is not my job to convince you of anything." - Aspen

-- That's a relief, because you have failed miserabley.




" am not sure why you feel the need to misrepresent Catholicism." - Aspen

-- You say that, but you don't present anything to show the misrepresentation. Don't worry, I understand why.




"Nope....sorry. Catholics do not believe in sola scriptura." - Aspen

-- Never said they did.
They take it further, stating that if it isn't mentioned in the Bible then whatever belief they choose to follow is supported by God.

Laughable, but it is what they believe.




"It would be much easier to take you seriously if Protestantism actually reformed Christianity - the fact is, Protestantism simply added their own traditions in place of Catholic traditions." - Aspen

-- Yup. By removing the man-created, man-based Catholic beliefs and making their "traditions" be based on actual scripture.




"Yet, they were on Earth....." - Aspen

-- Yup, Moses and Elijah were on earth..... interacting ONLY with Jesus. NOT with Peter or the other disciples..........at all.
Yet you choose this scripture to try to support the idea of praying to those that have already died and gone to heaven.

How utterly comical.




.

 

[Duckybill]

I am sorry that beliefs in your faith do not gel with God's word.
If you wish to follow them, knock yourself out.
But don't insult the intelligence of the rest of the world in an attempt to justify them.

I wonder how many Aspen has charged with 'slander' for challenging his unScriptural beliefs.

 

[aspen]

I wonder how many Aspen has charged with 'slander' for challenging his unScriptural beliefs.

Only those people who accuse me of behaviors or beliefs I am not guilty of.

 

[Duckybill]

Only those people who accuse me of behaviors or beliefs I am not guilty of.

By your own standard you are as guilty of slandering.