The child is the clue that it is Israel, not the church.
Jesus was an Israelite.
The future Israelite's that Jesus came from will be attacked from satan, as she is even unto today.
Christians are not under the New Covenant
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Jesus was an Israelite.
The future Israelite's that Jesus came from will be attacked from satan, as she is even unto today.
Except the church theory is the ultimate LOL.
They are not in the wilderness being chased by satan, nor will they ever be.
Replacement theology teaches God lied to the fathers.
That theology is satanic in essence.
It calls God a liar in the highest order.
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12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman (Israel)clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:...
And behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were bowing down to me...
....AKA..all Israel.
And behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were bowing down to me...
....AKA..all Israel.
Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
and I suppose since there were false prophets it impossible got there to be true prophets???
Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but Israel (as the mother) was only mentioned in one commentary and that was about "Israel- the true Jewish church" meaning that it was of both Jews and Gentiles. Any mention of Mary was rapidly dismissed as "unreasonable." Yet all 10 of these commentators were solid on the word "mother" as representing "the church" and that of true believers.
..."And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; Rev 12:1
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
It is the picture of the bride, the Church.
Benson Commentary
“St. John resumes his subject from the beginning, and represents the church (Revelation 12:1-2) as a woman, and a mother bearing children unto Christ.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
12:1-6 The church, under the emblem of a woman, the mother of believers, was seen by the apostle in vision, in heaven. She was clothed with the sun, justified, sanctified, and shining by union with Christ, the Sun of Righteousness.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
The woman, beyond all question, represents the church.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
1. This episode (Re 12:1-15:8) describes in detail the persecution of Israel and the elect Church by the beast, which had been summarily noticed....As new Jerusalem (called also "the woman," or "wife," Re 21:2, 9-12), with its twelve gates, is the exalted and transfigured Church, so the woman with the twelve stars is the Church militant. Revelation 12:1,2 A woman clothed with the sun travaileth,
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
...and the church apostolical is here called "a woman", because the church was not now in its infancy,
Geneva Study Bible
Of which two the beginning of the Church is described in this chapter, and the progress of it in the chapter following.
Meyer's NT Commentary
Whether and in what way the Church is to be understood by the woman, cannot be inferred until the close of the entire vision,[3022] since the particular points of the text condition the meaning of the whole. The emblematic description (περιβεβλημένη
δώδεκα) represents the woman who is just about bearing, Revelation 12:2, in a heavenly brilliancy reminding us of the manifestation of Christ[3023] and of God.[3024]
Pulpit Commentary
The woman, the Church, though on earth, is nevertheless, by virtue of her union with Christ, in heaven." A woman. The woman is undoubtedly the Church of God;
Vincent's Word Studies
The symbol is usually taken to represent the Church.
The church doesn’t have offspring Mary does rev 12:17
spiritual children by the command of Christ on the cross! Jn 19
spiritual children by the command of Christ on the cross! Jn 19
Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
"He took [Abraham] outside and said, 'Look up at the heavens and count the stars - if indeed you can count them.' Then he said to him, 'so shall your offspring be.'"- Gen. 15:5 “
Hmmmm! It doesn't say God promised Mary any "sapiritual offspring" at any time in her future like he did with Abraham!
Now since Abraham's "offspring" had to be spiritual "offspring" (because they had yet to even been born) how is it that the RCC can claim that Mary had been promised "offspring" as many as the "stars in the heavens" also even though Mary too had yet to be born?
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So He is not going to save all of Israel? Many of the dead folk were not able to see Jesus, but these last generation folk will be saved just because they happened to be around when He comes back? I thought God's covenant was for ALL of Israel. That is everyone, living and dead. It would be unfair for it not to be.
Unless of course Israel is composed of those Paul speaks of in Romans 2:28,29
"28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God."
and Gal 3:28,29
"28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
Rev 12:17...Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.
You can't avoid the truth of verses 1 and 17. None of the above 10 commentators even considered Mary as the woman in verses 1 & 17 so give it up. It's the Roman catholic false tradition's that cause you to stumble time and time again. Those "false traditions" may very well be the very demises of multitudes.
the drageon = all commentators agree it is Satan
mother = the church of the believing remnant of no specific denomination (that don't spread heresies - my add).
offspring = the church composed of those who spread the gospel and bear testimony to Jesus
Jhn 19:26-27...When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.
Scripture says no more than that. To add anything to that which cannot be verified by scripture alone is to violate the warnings of Rev 22:19...
"...and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."
Matthew Henry Concise Commentary:
All are condemned who should dare to corrupt or change the word of God, either by adding to it, or taking from it....Such corruption of the divine oracles would show that they had no true religion, and would be excluded from heaven.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Such corruption of the divine oracles would show that they had no true religion, and would be excluded from heaven.
It is conceivable that, from the remarkable nature of the communications made in this book, and the fact that they seemed to be unintelligible, John supposed there might be those who would be inclined to omit some portions as improbable, or that he apprehended that when the portions which describe antichrist were fulfilled in distant ages, those to whom those portions applied would be disposed to strike them from the sacred volume, or to corrupt them.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
As in the beginning of this book (Re 1:3) a blessing was promised to the devout, obedient student of it, so now at its close a curse is denounced against those who add to, or take from, it.
Gill's Esposition of the Entire Bible:
And if any man shall take away from the prophecy of this book,.... As he may be said to do, who denies the authority of this book, which has been done by some, and which the Holy Ghost foresaw; or takes it away from, or denies the reading of it to the people, as the Papists do with respect to the whole Scripture; and who wilfully pervert the sense of it, and will not have the things in it, relating to antichrist, to belong to him.
Pulpit Commentary:
Just as the evils set forth in the Apocalypse are declared in ver. 18 to be the portion of those who add to the book, so those who take from the book are deprived of those blessings which have been constantly referred to in the book.
Well clearly all of those commentators were mistaken! The woman is pregnant. The Church is to be Jesus' bride. So I wonder what Jesus thinks about his bride to be being pregnant?
(The marriage supper of the Lamb doesn't occur until Revelation 19:6-9.)Verse 5 says:
(5) She gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. Her child was caught up to God, and to his throne.
which is clearly referring to Jesus, right? So if the woman represented the Church then that is saying that the Church produced the Messiah, rather than the reality that the Messiah produced the Church.
Here's another commentary, from the Cambridge Bible Notes:
a woman] Who is this? The two answers most commonly given are (1) the Virgin Mary, (2) the Church. Neither seems quite satisfactory. ...
... But it is not in harmony with the usage of this book for a human being, even a glorified saint, to be introduced in his personal character: if St John saw (see on Revelation 4:4, Revelation 5:5) himself, who was not yet glorified, sitting among the elders, it is plain that it is typical, not personal, glory or blessedness that this description indicates.
Who then, or what, is the typical or mystical Mother of Christ? Not the Christian Church, which in this book as elsewhere is represented as His wife: but the Jewish Church, the ideal Israel, “the daughter of Zion.” See especially Micah 4:10; Micah 5:3 : where it is her travail from which He is to be born Who is born in Bethlehem. This accounts for the only features that support the other view, the appearance in her glory of the Sun, Moon, and stars of Song of Solomon 6:10, and the mention of “the remnant of her seed” in Revelation 12:17.
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Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
One out of 11 and you say 10 are wrong? I did not include the Cambridge Bible because it presented 3 different senarios which ended up with what I did agree, for the most part but not all of it, with which is in your last paragraph....
"Who then, or what is typical or mystical Mother of Christ? Not the Christian Church, which in this book as elsewhere is represented as His wife: but the Jewish Church, the ideal Israel, “the daughter of Zion.” See especially Micah 4:10; Micah 5:3 : where it is her travail from which He is to be born Who is born in Bethlehem. This accounts for the only features that support the other view, the appearance in her glory of the Sun, Moon, and stars of Song of Solomon 6:10, and the mention of “the remnant of her seed” in Revelation 12:17."
Revelation 12:1, in my RSV has a cross reference to Isaiah 66:7-8 which says..."
Isa 66:7-8..."Before she was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment? For as soon as Zion was in labor she brought forth her sons.
Therefore, I did see where Cambridge was also correct, even though it used the term "the Jewish Church, the ideal Israel, "the daughter of Zion"..."the remnant of her seed." I actually agreed with that, but did not include it, even though it agrees with what I have previousely said..."God's people actually began in the Garden of Eden and continues to grow (the tree) until the end of the ages; the Last Day/ Judgement Day."
Essentially, "the church"; the "church in the wilderness" was in God's entire plan from the beginning. The "church in the wilderness"* has the same meaning as "ekklesia" does in both the OT and the NT; they were and are still the same remnant of believers.
*Act 7:38..."This is he that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel that spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received living oracles to give unto us:"
No it is not.
The best is yet to come.
We are not whom the promise of the fathers(new covenant) is about.
We are merely INCLUDED in their future new covenant in a partial, dark glass(like viewing through a welders mask) way.
All eyes are not opened, nor are all the lame walking etc, yet.
Do you have a brain?
If so, you know the church is not the sun, moon and 12 stars.
Nor is Jesus.
Nor is Mary.
Joseph(one of the 12 stars), had a dream defining Israel(all 12 stars=12 tribes) and the clue started off the passage of Rev.
Post trib teachers will make up anything per commentary.
Jesus will return to save every human in Israel and Judah.
As a matter of fact, witnessing "know the Lord" will even cease, since they will all know and visibly see him.
No more passing out tracts in the day of Jesus(Millennial).
Very few today are saved per capita, especially the true believers that actually obey Acts 2:38.
We cannot see the fulfillment of the promise to the fathers through our dark glasses until Jesus returns.
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