A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R

A debunked and evil Exodus 3:14 delusion by some people purports that Exodus 3:14 states "I will be who I will be" instead of "I AM who I AM". Such people do not understand Hebrew nor discern spiritual matters (1 Corinthians 2:14), then they deceive each other and deceive themselves (2 Timothy 3:13).

The Hebrew word אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה (eyheh, am, Strong's 1961) is an imperfect verb, and this word is translated "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 (the "I" occurs because eyheh is singular).

A perfect verb is a word that conveys a completed action; in other words, an action that occurred in the past.

An imperfect verb is a word that conveys an incomplete action; in other words, an action occurs past into present, present, and/or future.

With the imperfect verb eyheh being used for the Name of the One who is and who was and who is to come, then we use I AM for eyheh in English because YHWH God is I AM in the past and YHWH God is I AM in the present and YHWH God is I AM in the future.

The Exodus 3:14 delusion people's contrivance of eyheh being "I will be" indicates that they think that YHWH God will become YHWH God at some time in the future after YHWH God speaks to Moses at the burning bush.

In other words, the Exodus 3:14 delusion people think that YHWH God has to be created! This is according to their thoughts of "I will be" for eyheh.

See where the Exodus 3:14 delusion people'd contrivance leads.

"I AM Who I AM" is the accurate translation for Exodus 3:14 of the Hebrew TaNaKah - the Hebrew Bible.

This current post augments the John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14 post #461 in this thread.

Truthfully (John 14:6), the declaration by YHWH God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) is directly referred to by Jesus in "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) such that Jesus declares Himself to be YHWH God.

 

[PinSeeker]

1 Cor 15:24-28 shows it ends.

No, it doesn't, Keiw. I respect your opinion, but no, it doesn't. Christ Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

YHWH( Jehovah) resumes being king, he is king of eternity.

This statement is a contradiction in and of itself. YHVH is certainly King of eternity, past and future. He does not resume ~ as if He's given it up for any length of time ~ His kingship.

If Jesus were God he was already king...

He was and is. Again, Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

...he was appointed( Daniel 7:13-15)( The ancient of days= God-YHWH) as king for 1000 years-Rev 20:6-- Then he must hand the kingdom back to his God and Father and subject himself---forever. YHWH( Father) is king of eternity.

A terrible, terrible misunderstanding and misapplication ~ of both Daniel 7 and Revelation 20.

Grace and peace to you, Keiw.

 

[Keiw]

John 20:17 and Revelation 3:12 and 1 Peter 1:3 and Colossians 1:3 and 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 and John 4:22-23 are all fact.

If you are trying to make a point after you cited versus you have failed miserably.

For example I have accurately quoted in Jesus with "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

You have been exposed as a liar about the Bible when you wickedly added 1914 AD into chapter six of the Book of Revelation as shown in post #427 in this thread; therefore, you are an unreliable source.

THE TRUTH (JOHN 14:6) IS THAT JESUS SAYS "I AM" AS RECORDED BY THE APOSTLE JOHN IN:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Your thoughts crumble, and you have no scriptural response to the post to which you replied, so you attempt to deceive.

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

How many Gods does the bible say exists? 1 is the answer--Paul named him at 1 Cor 8:5-6--The Father. Jesus is not called God there. Jesus is never called Ho Theos in the Greek language. It is proven fact. Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1 gets-a god.

 

[Keiw]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R

A debunked and evil Exodus 3:14 delusion by some people purports that Exodus 3:14 states "I will be who I will be" instead of "I AM who I AM". Such people do not understand Hebrew nor discern spiritual matters (1 Corinthians 2:14), then they deceive each other and deceive themselves (2 Timothy 3:13).

The Hebrew word אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה (eyheh, am, Strong's 1961) is an imperfect verb, and this word is translated "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 (the "I" occurs because eyheh is singular).

A perfect verb is a word that conveys a completed action; in other words, an action that occurred in the past.

An imperfect verb is a word that conveys an incomplete action; in other words, an action occurs past into present, present, and/or future.

With the imperfect verb eyheh being used for the Name of the One who is and who was and who is to come, then we use I AM for eyheh in English because YHWH God is I AM in the past and YHWH God is I AM in the present and YHWH God is I AM in the future.

The Exodus 3:14 delusion people's contrivance of eyheh being "I will be" indicates that they think that YHWH God will become YHWH God at some time in the future after YHWH God speaks to Moses at the burning bush.

In other words, the Exodus 3:14 delusion people think that YHWH God has to be created! This is according to their thoughts of "I will be" for eyheh.

See where the Exodus 3:14 delusion people'd contrivance leads.

"I AM Who I AM" is the accurate translation for Exodus 3:14 of the Hebrew TaNaKah - the Hebrew Bible.

This current post augments the John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14 post #461 in this thread.

Truthfully (John 14:6), the declaration by YHWH God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) is directly referred to by Jesus in "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) such that Jesus declares Himself to be YHWH God.

It is proven fact-Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT, only the Father is. That proves 100% a god belongs in the last line at John 1:1--Your translations are erred-Its fact--34,000 trinity religions = a house divided, they will not stand-34,000 false religions will fall, this is coming very soon. God warned all--GET OUT OF HER.

 

[Keiw]

No, it doesn't, Keiw. I respect your opinion, but no, it doesn't. Christ Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.


This statement is a contradiction in and of itself. YHVH is certainly King of eternity, past and future. He does not resume ~ as if He's given it up for any length of time ~ His kingship.


He was and is. Again, Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.


A terrible, terrible misunderstanding and misapplication ~ of both Daniel 7 and Revelation 20.

Grace and peace to you, Keiw.

If you can really believe that God has a God and will be in subjection. Its not rational thinking. Paul named who God is at 1Cor 8:5-6= The Father. Jesus warns all about the God they serve then taught all how to do it properly-John 4:22-24) The bible teaches there is 1 God. Only the Father is called Ho Theos in the NT. Plain Theos is in the last line at John 1:1 in Greek= a god, not The God. This is Fact.

 

[PinSeeker]

If you can really believe that God has a God and will be in subjection.

In Jesus's time on earth, He laid aside ~ discounted fully, for a time ~ His deity for man's sake, and in that state, Jesus, the Father was Jesus's God.

It's not rational thinking...

"That is so ugly," says the blind man.

Paul named who God is at 1Cor 8:5-6= The Father.

Oh, my. So Paul is writing to the Corinthians here, of course, and he is agreeing with what the Corinthian Christians know (or need to know), that idols do not represent real "gods" and "lords." This is his context. He is not distinguishing between God an Jesus in any sense, as Jehovah's Witnesses want to impose upon him.

Jesus warns all about the God they serve then taught all how to do it properly-John 4:22-24).

Right, and some of us do: in the the spirit, by the power of the Holy Spirit. In this way, God inhabits our praises, as the Psalmist says, and Jesus is saying here.

The bible teaches there is 1 God.

Absolutely. And this one God, YHVH, consists of three distinct Persons, but even so is one and only one God.

Only the Father is called Ho Theos in the NT. Plain Theos is in the last line at John 1:1 in Greek= a god, not The God. This is Fact.

An opinion. But you can call that an opinion, too, if you want. There is no capitalization in the Greek, a fact which some of your own Jehovah's Witness brethren have correctly pointed out). It is what it is.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[MatthewG]

If you read revelation you can see that Jesus is the Lord God Almighty; this is when Jesus had given everything back for the Father could be all in all. The Father and the Word one again, that sit on the throne as the Lord God Almighty.

 

[Gregory]

I have a question I was hoping to maybe get some answers on from non-Trinitarians. Here goes: Using scriptural proofs, what would you say is the difference between serving the man Jesus Christ and serving God? I ask because this question presents itself in the following passage of scripture:

22 Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eye-service as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God. 23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as unto the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. Serve Christ the Lord. 25 But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality. (Colossians 3:22-25)

The Trinitarian interprets "the Lord" here to be one and the same in every verse, referring to the Lord Jesus Christ, whom Paul's readers were being encouraged to serve with sincerity of heart, in fearing God. The non-Trinitarian, however, interprets verses 22-24 to be references to serving God, whereas the phrase in v.24 "Serve Christ the Lord" is a sudden transition to talking about serving the man Jesus Christ.
So how from scripture is serving the man Jesus Christ different from serving God?

Blessings in Christ to all who respond.
Hidden In Him

This scripture helps us understand that we do all that we do through and in the name of Jesus Christ. But we do these things fearing Jesus's God. (John 20:17)

We can call Jesus God, because he is an equal member of the Godhead. But, Jesus is not God the Father. He is God the Son. They are 1 in unity, not 1 in substance. 1 can never = 3.

 

[Keiw]

In Jesus's time on earth, He laid aside ~ discounted fully, for a time ~ His deity for man's sake, and in that state, Jesus, the Father was Jesus's God.


"That is so ugly," says the blind man.


Oh, my. So Paul is writing to the Corinthians here, of course, and he is agreeing with what the Corinthian Christians know (or need to know), that idols do not represent real "gods" and "lords." This is his context. He is not distinguishing between God an Jesus in any sense, as Jehovah's Witnesses want to impose upon him.


Right, and some of us do: in the the spirit, by the power of the Holy Spirit. In this way, God inhabits our praises, as the Psalmist says, and Jesus is saying here.


Absolutely. And this one God, YHVH, consists of three distinct Persons, but even so is one and only one God.


An opinion. But you can call that an opinion, too, if you want. There is no capitalization in the Greek, a fact which some of your own Jehovah's Witness brethren have correctly pointed out). It is what it is.

Grace and peace to you.

HoTheos is not an opinion, it is Fact
In 1822 a bible translation compared Greek to English side by side-a god in the last line at John 1:1--Many other translations had a god or was divine because they knew it did not call the word The God. Rejected by every trinity clergy because it exposes their religions as false religion, which it is. It is a house divided, it will not stand.

 

[PinSeeker]

HoTheos is not an opinion, it is Fact.

You're understanding of it is an opinion. We will certainly agree that it does differentiate between the Father and the Son, that they are distinct Persons. But what the nature of that differentiation really is, Keiw, is another question, and there are, obviously, differing opinions on that, and yours is one. And as I said before, I'm perfectly fine with you saying the same thing of mine. What we can agree to do, I think, is concede that both of us think our opinion is factual.

In 1822 a bible translation compared Greek to English side by side-a god in the last line at John 1:1--Many other translations had a god or was divine because they knew it did not call the word The God.

This is what the Watchtower folks propagated, yes. And since nobody would accept it, they formed their own organization. They "went out from us" (more on this in a moment).

Rejected by every trinity clergy because it exposes their religions as false...

So goes the Watchtower narrative. And that's why they segregated themselves.

...a house divided, it will not stand.

Well I agree, but that's not applicable... in the way you suppose it to be.

Okay, so, the Watchtower folks were some of those who, for various reasons over the centuries... millennia... have "gone out from us" because they are not of God, not in Christ. As John says, concerning antichrists, "(t)hey went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us... This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father."

As for you and your cohorts posting here, Keiw, that doesn't directly apply to you, but what Paul says in 2nd Timothy certainly does, namely, "...the time is coming..." (and is here now, of course) "...when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths" (2 Timothy 4:3-4)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Hidden In Him]

This scripture helps us understand that we do all that we do through and in the name of Jesus Christ. But we do these things fearing Jesus's God. (John 20:17)

We can call Jesus God, because he is an equal member of the Godhead. But, Jesus is not God the Father. He is God the Son. They are 1 in unity, not 1 in substance. 1 can never = 3.

Greetings, Gregory. As per post #479, I requested this thread be closed down because I personally lost interest several months ago. Unfortunately one of my most insignificant threads has become a monster that's garnering too much interest to be shut down. So it will run in perpetuity without my participation.

But I do appreciate the courtesy nonetheless, and feel free to interact with anyone else on this thread that's still involved in it.
God bless,
Hidden In Him

 

[DavidB]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R

A debunked and evil Exodus 3:14 delusion by some people purports that Exodus 3:14 states "I will be who I will be" instead of "I AM who I AM". Such people do not understand Hebrew nor discern spiritual matters (1 Corinthians 2:14), then they deceive each other and deceive themselves (2 Timothy 3:13).

The Hebrew word אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה (eyheh, am, Strong's 1961) is an imperfect verb, and this word is translated "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 (the "I" occurs because eyheh is singular).

A perfect verb is a word that conveys a completed action; in other words, an action that occurred in the past.

An imperfect verb is a word that conveys an incomplete action; in other words, an action occurs past into present, present, and/or future.

With the imperfect verb eyheh being used for the Name of the One who is and who was and who is to come, then we use I AM for eyheh in English because YHWH God is I AM in the past and YHWH God is I AM in the present and YHWH God is I AM in the future.

The Exodus 3:14 delusion people's contrivance of eyheh being "I will be" indicates that they think that YHWH God will become YHWH God at some time in the future after YHWH God speaks to Moses at the burning bush.

In other words, the Exodus 3:14 delusion people think that YHWH God has to be created! This is according to their thoughts of "I will be" for eyheh.

See where the Exodus 3:14 delusion people'd contrivance leads.

"I AM Who I AM" is the accurate translation for Exodus 3:14 of the Hebrew TaNaKah - the Hebrew Bible.

This current post augments the John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14 post #461 in this thread.

Truthfully (John 14:6), the declaration by YHWH God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) is directly referred to by Jesus in "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) such that Jesus declares Himself to be YHWH God.

Is everyone who disagrees with you delusional?

“The writer [of Exodus 3:14-15] ... explains it [the meaning of God's name] by the phrase EHYEH asher EHYEH(Ex. iii., 14); this can be translated `I am that I am' or more`exactly 'I am wont to be that which I am wont to be' or `I will be that which I will be .'" Encyclopedia Britannica p. 995, 14th ed., v. 12.

Moffatt’s translation - “I WILL BE”
Byington’s - “I WILL BE”
Rotherham’s - “I WILL BECOME”
Concordant Literal Version - “I-SHALL-COME-TO-BE”
Julia Smith’s - “I SHALL BE”;
Leeser’s - “I WILL BE”;
Miles Coverdale Bible (1535): “I wyl be what I wyll be.”
New World Translation - “I SHALL PROVE TO BE.”

In addition were the following alternate readings in footnotes:
American Standard Version - "I WILL BE"
NIV Study Bible - "I WILL BE"
Revised Standard Version - "I WILL BE"
New Revised Standard Version - "I WILL BE"
New English Bible - "I WILL BE"
Revised English Bible - "I WILL BE"
Living Bible - "I WILL BE"
Good News Bible - "I WILL BE."

All the places where ehyeh is used in the the books of Moses are listed below. You will find they always mean "I will be" not "I am," particularly when it is Jehovah speaking about his relationship to his people (as also in Ex. 3:14)

See ehyeh in an OT Interlinear at Exodus 3:14:

Now look up the other scriptures which use ehyeh and see how they are translated:
Genesis 26:3 (Jehovah: "I will be with you" NRSV)
Genesis 31:3 (Jehovah: "I will be with you" NRSV)
Exodus 3:12 (Jehovah: I will be with you" NRSV)
Exodus 4:12 (Jehovah: "I will be with your mouth" NRSV)
Exodus 4:15 (Jehovah: "I will be with your mouth" NRSV)
Deuteronomy 32:23 (Moses: "I will be with you" NRSV)

 

[Kermos]

Prove 1914 didnt occur at Rev 6--peace was taken from the earth.

"And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him" (Revelation 6:4).

Read carefully, "1914" is NOT in the verse, so there is the proof!

You add "1914" to Revelation 6!

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

That is not how it is written in Greek at John 1:1--Ho Theos in the second line-plain Theos in the last line showing the differential.

Your words in your post show that YOU HAVE TWO GODS.

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

The Truth (John 14:6) is:

To avoid confusion here is the accurately translated verse from Greek to English:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

First, your small "g" claim for the final word in the verse results in you having two gods because you claim Jesus is another god which clearly violates YHWH God's commandment "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

Second, your proposition of "God was with God" cannot be linguistically expanded to "this God was with that God" without you breaking from the accurate translation, and both occurrences of God in "God was with God" represents the same God, so your "more than 1 God" claim crumbles.

Truly, Jesus is God with us (Matthew 1:23). Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

I also did not write that God had only temporarily exalted Jesus to the position of ruler of God's Kingdom. Why would you assume that?!

I plainly stated in posts #424 and #464 that "I have never claimed that Jesus will not reign forever", so why won't you accept that? You seem to be being deliberately argumentative or just not humble enough to admit that you were mistaken.


Why not? It's quite plain and simple to understand. God will be Almighty God forever, and He has chosen His beloved Son Jesus to be the ruler over His everlasting Kingdom. There is no reason to suppose that God will one day decide to remove Jesus from that exalted position and choose somebody else to replace him. Do you think the following exaltation is also temporary?

Philippians 2:9-11 (WEB):
(9) Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name;
(10) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth,
(11) and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Look, I explained my perspective of your writing about 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 based upon your writings. Your posts #424 and #464 occur after my post #420, so those posts were not a part of your post #390 to which I replied in post #420; furthermore, your posts #424 and #464 did not exist when I composed post #420.

Enough! Do not expect further responses to your dispute about my interpretation of your post quoted in my post 420.

 

[Kermos]

Well I'm not Kermos, and he can speak for himself, but I'm guessing the answer is no. In Jesus's emptied state as a man (in the form of man), it became true, but in His state as God the Son, it was, is, and always will be true... from everlasting (eternity past) to everlasting (eternity future).

Grace and peace to you, Keith.

Thanks PinSeeker, I say no.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

The Israelite spiritual leaders never said a truth about Jesus. Hearts of hatred do not speak truth on matters. Jesus never said he was God--Like he said-he showed them many good works from the Father--He always gave credit to his God and Father. They twisted it in their hatred.

Jesus is the Holy Spirit ? One can not comprehend Christ Jesus without the Holy Spirit truly at all !
Jesus said that he was not the God of the dead ? so by this he is all about Salvation feeding our Soul ? that's who he is and his name is Emmanuel = God "with" us ?

So one who claims to know God ? can not unless you are Saved ? you need a Saviour for that and it comes from the Holy Spirit. Now one has to keep your eyes on the birdy ? or one is lost.
So when we point to Christ Jesus as God ! well yes he is in fact ! to us ? because no one comes to the Father but through his only begotten Son ?
See that ! no one can come to the Father ! get that ? but ! through him.

Because he is Emmanuel = God with us ! one can not be out of line with Emmanuel. because the phone line ? if you will. is cut directly once you are outside of Emanuel.
No one can come to the Father ? so who can come to the Father without Emmanuel ?
Everything that we are resides in Christ Jesus ! not of ourselves.
People who make any other claim that is outside of Emmanuel is blasphemy !

Emmanuel Christ Jesus, is God with us, our Lord who is our Salvation.
So Christ our Lord who is our Salvation is God with us. and we in him are his Body as he is our Head. we abide in him only ! because outside of him is darkness, their is no light ! but death.

So the God of the dead ? has nothing in Jesus Christ at all. because such is of darkness. shadows and this world of deceptions and delusions.

Now as to God the Father we know that he is the one who prunes the branches ? Jesus does not prune the branches as he is the Vine ? and we abide in the Vine and they who do not are pruned off by the Father. So do not piss the Father off and abide in the Vine.

 

[Keiw]

You're understanding of it is an opinion. We will certainly agree that it does differentiate between the Father and the Son, that they are distinct Persons. But what the nature of that differentiation really is, Keiw, is another question, and there are, obviously, differing opinions on that, and yours is one. And as I said before, I'm perfectly fine with you saying the same thing of mine. What we can agree to do, I think, is concede that both of us think our opinion is factual.


This is what the Watchtower folks propagated, yes. And since nobody would accept it, they formed their own organization. They "went out from us" (more on this in a moment).


So goes the Watchtower narrative. And that's why they segregated themselves.


Well I agree, but that's not applicable... in the way you suppose it to be.

Okay, so, the Watchtower folks were some of those who, for various reasons over the centuries... millennia... have "gone out from us" because they are not of God, not in Christ. As John says, concerning antichrists, "(t)hey went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us... This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father."

As for you and your cohorts posting here, Keiw, that doesn't directly apply to you, but what Paul says in 2nd Timothy certainly does, namely, "...the time is coming..." (and is here now, of course) "...when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths" (2 Timothy 4:3-4)

Grace and peace to you.

You are wrong. The watchtower didnt show me those versions of the bible, i googled them. They are fact. The religion that came out of Rome added a trinity god a ta council in 381. It was never served before that. They did subtle mistranslating to fit those false council teachings= Fact--You are being mislead. When men were finally allowed to read the bible for themselves in the1500,s-they had no clue, but could clearly see the prior religions own translating still exposed them as false. That is because Jesus was never with that religion. It was started by satans will. No branch fixed it. there are34,000 of them- a house divided will not stand--do you understand that? They fail 100% 1 Cor 1:10-- Unity of thought, no division.

 

[Keiw]

"And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him" (Revelation 6:4).

Read carefully, "1914" is NOT in the verse, so there is the proof!

You add "1914" to Revelation 6!

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).



Your words in your post show that YOU HAVE TWO GODS.

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

The Truth (John 14:6) is:

To avoid confusion here is the accurately translated verse from Greek to English:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

First, your small "g" claim for the final word in the verse results in you having two gods because you claim Jesus is another god which clearly violates YHWH God's commandment "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

Second, your proposition of "God was with God" cannot be linguistically expanded to "this God was with that God" without you breaking from the accurate translation, and both occurrences of God in "God was with God" represents the same God, so your "more than 1 God" claim crumbles.

Truly, Jesus is God with us (Matthew 1:23). Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

It was the year peace was taken from the earth. Here are Jesus truths--John 20:17, Rev 3:12-- When ones teachers do not match Jesus' truths--Run from them 2Cor 11:12-15

 

[Kermos]

Repost from another thread... Did you actually come up with this crap Kermos? No, you just posted what you were told about this topic. You did no research what so ever... you just put your thumb in your mouth and sucked away....while being told what to believe!!!

There has been quite a bit of discussion on John 8:58. What happened to this verse as to confuse so many? Let's start in Exodus.

KJV Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Now we shall read the same verse from the Greek Septuagint

Septuagint Exo 3:14 και ειπεν ο θεος προς μωυσην [εγω ειμι ο ων] και ειπεν ουτως ερεις τοις υιοις ισραηλ [ο ων] απεσταλκεν με προς υμας
Note the two separate Greek words used for 'am'

Concordant Literal Version Exo 3:14 Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just as I am coming to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-to-Be has sent me to you. Now when translated literally you get a whole different look. What happened to the other I am's?

The Hebrew Bible uses the word (hâyâh H1961) in the place of "Am" which is a verb meaning to exist, to be.
Check the Strongs' number.

Clearly Jesus did not say (εγω ειμι ο ων) nor did he state (ο ων), in John 8:58. Jesus spoke the words (εγω ειμι) just like other people in the bible who are not God. So just what was Jesus saying?

But what about the great "I Am" statement of Jesus? You claim he Made... That classic one in John 8:58 where Jesus says, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born I am"?

Surely here Jesus makes the same claim for himself that Jehovah God made back in Exodus 3 where the LORD says to Moses at the burning Bush "I Am Who I Am." Surely Jesus is claiming to be the I AM of the Old Testament as Trinitarian belief asserts?

Now here is something very obvious that they never told you in church. This expression from Jesus' lips "I am" (Greek ego eimi) occurs throughout the Gospel of John and in no other text in John can it mean I AM, the God of the Old Testament.

Go back to John 4:25-26 for instance. The woman at the well said to Jesus, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when that one comes, he will declare all things to us." And Jesus said to her, "I who speak with you am he." You will notice that in most Bibles that word he is in italics. This means that the translators have correctly supplied a word in English that is not in the Greek but that nevertheless makes the intended sense quite clear. Here Jesus says to the woman - in the context of her question about the Messiah - that he is the Messiah, the Christ. "I who speak to you am he." In the Greek it reads ego eimi. Jesus simply says I am he, the Messiah. Definitely not “I am is the one speaking to you!”

In John 9 Jesus heals the blind man. Is this really the beggar who used to sit groping in the dark? Some people said, "Yes, it's him all right." Other said, "No, he just looks like him." But the beggar says, " ego eimi!" And the translators have no problem writing, "I am the one." So why aren't the translators consistent? Why not capitalize what this man says as I AM? Because it is clear that he is not claiming to be the God of the Old Testament. Saying "I am" (ego eimi) does not make somebody God in the Bible!

What Jesus is saying is simply “Before Abraham was born, I am he,” that is, "I am the Messiah."

Notice the context in John 8:56 where Jesus says, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day." By faith Abraham looked forward and saw the coming Messiah before he came in history. He believed the promise that God would send the Promised One. On the other hand these Jews did not believe that Jesus was their Messiah. They were claiming to be Abraham's descendents. Jesus said that this was impossible for they did not recognize him as their Messiah. But Jesus asserts that even before Abraham was born, he is the One who was always in God's plan. This Abraham believe and saw. The Messiah preexisted in God's plan and therefore in Abraham's believing mind, because he trusted the promise of God. Jesus positively did not say, before Abraham was, I was." Also, Jesus did not say, “Before Abraham was, I AM WHAT I AM."

The conclusion is inevitable. Jesus’ claim "Before Abraham was born, I am he" is the straightforward claim that he is the long promised one, the Messiah, the One in question. Jesus is the Savior in God's promise even before Abraham was born.

Jesus, NEVER claimed to be God and Jesus never said "I AM" apart from any others who said the same scripture!

So Kermos... you can let go of your ankles... Your Biblical spanking is complete!
Paul

Let's see, first I addressed my post certain individuals, and you called them "crap".

Then, in the first paragraph of the post body, I quoted the Word of God saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so you called the Word of God crap.

Later in your post, you added "he", which is "auto" in Greek, to "ego eimi" at the conclusion of John 8:58, so the result of your contrivance is "ego eimi auto". You did this right before you wrote "Notice the context". You wickedly and pridefully add to the Word of God in order to change His meaning to your humanistic thoughts.

The context of Jesus' words are absolutely Spiritually clear that He is YHWH God, and these posts illuminate this Truth (John 14:6) scripturally "the John 8:58 without mentioning Exodus 3:14 post" in this thread, "the John 8:58 including Exodus 3:14 post" in this thread, and "the Exodus 3:14 lexical and scriptural implication of 'I AM' compared to 'I will be' post" in this thread,

"My Lord and my God" testified the Apostle Thomas to Jesus Christ (John 20:28), so Apostolic teaching is that Jesus Christ is YHWH God.

 

[Keiw]

Jesus is the Holy Spirit ? One can not comprehend Christ Jesus without the Holy Spirit truly at all !
Jesus said that he was not the God of the dead ? so by this he is all about Salvation feeding our Soul ? that's who he is and his name is Emmanuel = God "with" us ?

So one who claims to know God ? can not unless you are Saved ? you need a Saviour for that and it comes from the Holy Spirit. Now one has to keep your eyes on the birdy ? or one is lost.
So when we point to Christ Jesus as God ! well yes he is in fact ! to us ? because no one comes to the Father but through his only begotten Son ?
See that ! no one can come to the Father ! get that ? but ! through him.

Because he is Emmanuel = God with us ! one can not be out of line with Emmanuel. because the phone line ? if you will. is cut directly once you are outside of Emanuel.
No one can come to the Father ? so who can come to the Father without Emmanuel ?
Everything that we are resides in Christ Jesus ! not of ourselves.
People who make any other claim that is outside of Emmanuel is blasphemy !

Emmanuel Christ Jesus, is God with us, our Lord who is our Salvation.
So Christ our Lord who is our Salvation is God with us. and we in him are his Body as he is our Head. we abide in him only ! because outside of him is darkness, their is no light ! but death.

So the God of the dead ? has nothing in Jesus Christ at all. because such is of darkness. shadows and this world of deceptions and delusions.

Now as to God the Father we know that he is the one who prunes the branches ? Jesus does not prune the branches as he is the Vine ? and we abide in the Vine and they who do not are pruned off by the Father. So do not piss the Father off and abide in the Vine.

No Jesus is not the holy spirit. The holy spirit isnt a living being. It has no name, no throne, God taught it nothing, nor shared anything with it like he did with the son. God and Jesus are mentioned as separate in many NT passages, Very important passages, the HS -0 in those important passages.