A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[PinSeeker]

Wow... Blind as blind can you be!!
Paul

 

[MatthewG]

From my non trinity perspective, using the Bible I decide to make this for others. You can listen to what is presented remember to think for yourself.

We take a deep dive with scripture.

Spoiler: What does the Bible say about who is Jesus?

In Christ,
Matthew Gallagher

 

[Pierac]

Love the pic.... notice your went ahead and posted with out your pastors consent... by your lack of dialogue!

Why don't you just post a picture of a man with long hair and claim he can be a woman... Just because he feels like one! You liberals kill me! LOL

Animated GIF - Find & Share on GIPHY


Caitlyn Jenner


Silly child... He still a MAN!
God can no longer be a man than a woman can... silly child... That which is flesh(Jesus) is flesh that which is Spirit (God) is Spirit!

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on us as we sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that we could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!

Paul

 

[PinSeeker]

We take a deep dive with scripture.

That's certainly what many have done, in so many different ways. But the great thing is, though the grass wither and the flower fade, the word of our God stands forever (Isaiah 40:8; 1 Peter 1:24).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello to you, Pinseeker,

The word of God is so helpful to reinforce faith of the human being.

You know? Faith is one thing that is important to God for it is what pleases him (Hebrews 11:6), those who decide to seek for him will most certainly be rewarded accordingly.

There probably may be many people out there who are unaware what the Bible teaches about certain subjects and luckily enough they have a Bibles to help with that, the biggest one being a Thompson Chain Reference Bible.

In Christ,
Matthew Gallagher

 

[PinSeeker]

The word of God is so helpful to reinforce faith of the human being.

God's Word is formative, yes, for sure.

Faith is one thing that is important to God for it is what pleases him (Hebrews 11:6).

Hm. Well Hebrews 11 is saying that by faith we are saved, just like all the heroes of the faith from Abraham on down. Right? And what that verse in particular is saying is that we may do all kinds of things to serve and please Him, if we don't have faith, it/they are all for naught. And faith is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8), an assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). This assurance can only be given by God. Glorifying Him, which can be done in many different ways, is what pleases Him, and faith is what enables us to do that.

...those who decide to seek for him will most certainly be rewarded accordingly.

Sure. Seek and you will find; Matthew 7:7. Absolutely.

Grace and peace to you, Matthew.

 

[PinSeeker]

The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image.

Not at all. Paul says Jesus is the image of the invisible God. So you're doing here the very thing you're railing against.

We are made in God's image, not the other way around.

Absolutely. So do you think Jesus is also made/created in God's image? Or do you believe what Paul actually says in Colossians 1, that He is the image of the invisible God?

Grace and peace to you, Paul.

 

[Keiw]

Since both you and @Aunty Jane (via her "like" of your post) treasure your claim that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1 gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods).

You and Aunty Jane clearly violate YHWH God's commandment "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

YHWH God declares "I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

Yet you and Aunty Jane sin by having two gods which means that you do not know YHWH God.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1) truthfully (John 14:6) indicates that Jesus is YHWH God.

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Truly, Jesus is God with us (Matthew 1:23). Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

We have 1 God-Jehovah, its you who have 3--3 never make 1-- If it takes 3 to make 1 God, then there couldnt have been a God while Jesus was on earth. But its 100% clear-You refuse to believe english-Rev 1:1--a revelation of Jesus which God gave to him--1 being is God= the giver, one being is Jesus = the receiver of the revelation. See now if you say Jesus is God there, there is more than 1 God by your belief. But We know Jehovah is the only God, he is the Father.

 

[Keiw]

Jesus is God for the Apostle Peter confessed this Truth with "our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1, "God" is "tou Theou" in Greek), moreover, Peter, who walked with Jesus, restates that which Jesus says "I and the father are One" (John 10:30).

YOU LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT".

You have been exposed as a liar about the Bible when you wickedly added 1914 AD into chapter six of the Book of Revelation as shown in post #427 in this thread; therefore, you are an unreliable source.

You will find out different. What year did rev 6 take place since you know i am lying about it. You must know or are just making crap up about me because you have no clue when it occurred, nor do your teachers. That is fact of the matter right?

 

[Keiw]

Yea... I have tried to show them so many times...

When reading in Exodus awhile back, I came upon the phrase "the finger of God." I was aware that the same phrase was used in the book of Luke regarding the method Jesus uses to cast out demons. I decided to do a phrase study using e-Sword. The following information is from my latest research.

Exo 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

Luk 11:14 Now he was casting out a demon that was mute. When the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke, and the people marveled. 15 But some of them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the prince of demons," 16 while others, to test him, kept seeking from him a sign from heaven…
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
I had also come upon Scriptures that says Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God. This would strongly lead to the conclusion that the finger of God is the Spirit of God the Father.

Mat 12:22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, "Can this be the Son of David?" 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons."
Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

When you connect Luke 11:20 with Matthew 12:28 then you get the understanding of what the finger of God is.
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Now the same is true with the Holy Spirit. We also have in the Bible two parallel teachings of the same subject one Matthew and one in Luke.
Luk 12:11 And when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not be anxious about how you should defend yourself or what you should say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

Mat 10:19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Likewise, when you connect to Matthew 10:20 with Luke 12:12 you get an understanding of what the Holy Spirit is. It is the Spirit of the Father. There is no separate being called the Holy Spirit. Again that's why the Holy Spirit is never worshiped, prayed to, or has a seat on a throne.

Paul

I agree, The holy spirit is not a living being it is Gods active force.

 

[Keiw]

Thank you for making a serious point! Why are they 34,000 trinity religions? All whom claim they are the only way to God! Can you not see.... You all have agreed on nothing but what Satan has put into your teachings! Then you have 34,000 trinity religions claiming to be the only way! Yet, Jesus said... I'm the truth and the way...

So what did Jesus teach about your 34,000 trinity religions?
Joh 8:40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me , a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

The Point is ALL 34,000 trinity religions... Reject what Jesus said in john 8:40
Wow... Blind as blind can you be!!
Paul

I dont belong to a trinity religion. No true follower does.

 

[Kermos]

Is everyone who disagrees with you delusional?

“The writer [of Exodus 3:14-15] ... explains it [the meaning of God's name] by the phrase EHYEH asher EHYEH(Ex. iii., 14); this can be translated `I am that I am' or more`exactly 'I am wont to be that which I am wont to be' or `I will be that which I will be .'" Encyclopedia Britannica p. 995, 14th ed., v. 12.

Moffatt’s translation - “I WILL BE”
Byington’s - “I WILL BE”
Rotherham’s - “I WILL BECOME”
Concordant Literal Version - “I-SHALL-COME-TO-BE”
Julia Smith’s - “I SHALL BE”;
Leeser’s - “I WILL BE”;
Miles Coverdale Bible (1535): “I wyl be what I wyll be.”
New World Translation - “I SHALL PROVE TO BE.”

In addition were the following alternate readings in footnotes:
American Standard Version - "I WILL BE"
NIV Study Bible - "I WILL BE"
Revised Standard Version - "I WILL BE"
New Revised Standard Version - "I WILL BE"
New English Bible - "I WILL BE"
Revised English Bible - "I WILL BE"
Living Bible - "I WILL BE"
Good News Bible - "I WILL BE."

All the places where ehyeh is used in the the books of Moses are listed below. You will find they always mean "I will be" not "I am," particularly when it is Jehovah speaking about his relationship to his people (as also in Ex. 3:14)

See ehyeh in an OT Interlinear at Exodus 3:14:

Now look up the other scriptures which use ehyeh and see how they are translated:
Genesis 26:3 (Jehovah: "I will be with you" NRSV)
Genesis 31:3 (Jehovah: "I will be with you" NRSV)
Exodus 3:12 (Jehovah: I will be with you" NRSV)
Exodus 4:12 (Jehovah: "I will be with your mouth" NRSV)
Exodus 4:15 (Jehovah: "I will be with your mouth" NRSV)
Deuteronomy 32:23 (Moses: "I will be with you" NRSV)

In the Exodus 3:14 delusion, people's contrivance of the imperfect verb eyheh being "I will be" indicates that they think that YHWH God will become YHWH God at some time in the future after YHWH God speaks to Moses at the burning bush.

"I AM" is the Name of the One who is and who was and who is to come.

People participating in the Exodus 3:14 delusion disagree with the Word of God!

You really erred on your final citation in your post for Moses is not speaking rather YHWH God is speaking and you got the chapter wrong.

Now look at the other scriptures which use ehyeh and see how "I am" is a fine translation:
Genesis 26:3 (YHWH: "I am with you" YLT)
Genesis 31:3 (YHWH: "I am with you" YLT)
Exodus 3:12 (YHWH: "I am with you" YLT)
Exodus 4:12 (YHWH: "I am with your mouth" YLT)
Exodus 4:15 (YHWH: "I am with your mouth" YLT)
Deuteronomy 31:23 (YHWH: "I am with you" YLT)

Truthfully (John 14:6), the declaration by YHWH God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) is directly referred to by Jesus in "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) such that Jesus declares Himself to be YHWH God.

 

[Kermos]

It was the year peace was taken from the earth. Here are Jesus truths--John 20:17, Rev 3:12-- When ones teachers do not match Jesus' truths--Run from them 2Cor 11:12-15

Rev 1:8 is Jehovah, not Jesus. Jesus is never called the almighty, only Jehovah is. At the end of Rev 20 is when Jesus hands the kingdom back to his God and Father--So Rev 21 is about Jehovah as well. Not a single true follower believes God has a God. Jesus has a God, Why do you refuse to believe him?

We have 1 God-Jehovah, its you who have 3--3 never make 1-- If it takes 3 to make 1 God, then there couldnt have been a God while Jesus was on earth. But its 100% clear-You refuse to believe english-Rev 1:1--a revelation of Jesus which God gave to him--1 being is God= the giver, one being is Jesus = the receiver of the revelation. See now if you say Jesus is God there, there is more than 1 God by your belief. But We know Jehovah is the only God, he is the Father.

You will find out different. What year did rev 6 take place since you know i am lying about it. You must know or are just making crap up about me because you have no clue when it occurred, nor do your teachers. That is fact of the matter right?

You have been exposed as a liar about the Bible, and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5).
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are an unreliable source.

Since Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God, then Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate and Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

"I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) includes that the person of Jesus and the person of the Father are the One True God.

Your writings are in opposition to the Truth (John 14:6).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

Spoken from a child whom does not read Greek!

There has been quite a bit of discussion on John 8:58. What happened to this verse as to confuse so many? Let's start in Exodus.

KJV Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Now we shall read the same verse from the Greek Septuagint

Septuagint Exo 3:14 και ειπεν ο θεος προς μωυσην [εγω ειμι ο ων] και ειπεν ουτως ερεις τοις υιοις ισραηλ [ο ων] απεσταλκεν με προς υμας
Note the two separate Greek words used for 'am'

Concordant Literal Version Exo 3:14 Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just as I am coming to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-to-Be has sent me to you.
Now when translated literally you get a whole different look. What happened to the other I am's?

The Hebrew Bible uses the word (hâyâh H1961) in the place of "Am" which is a verb meaning to exist, to be.
Check the Strongs' number.

Clearly Jesus did not say (εγω ειμι ο ων) nor did he state (ο ων), in John 8:58. Jesus spoke the words (εγω ειμι) just like other people in the bible who are not God. So just what was Jesus saying?

But what about the great "I Am him" statement of Jesus? Especially that classic one in John 8:58 where Jesus says, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born I am"?

Surely here Jesus makes the same claim for himself that Jehovah God made back in Exodus 3 where the LORD says to Moses at the burning Bush "I Am Who I Am." Surely Jesus is claiming to be the I AM of the Old Testament as Trinitarian belief asserts?

Now here is something very obvious that YOU never heard in church. This expression from Jesus' lips "I am" (Greek ego eimi) occurs throughout the Gospel of John and in no other text in John can it mean I AM, the God of the Old Testament and nor do the translators try to make it so!

Go back to John 4:25-26 for instance. The woman at the well said to Jesus, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when that one comes, he will declare all things to us." And Jesus said to her, "I who speak with you am he." You will notice that in most Bibles that word he is in italics. This means that the translators have correctly supplied a word in English that is not in the Greek but that nevertheless makes the intended sense quite clear. Here Jesus says to the woman - in the context of her question about the Messiah - that he is the Messiah, the Christ. "I who speak to you am he." In the Greek it reads ego eimi. Jesus simply says I am he, the Messiah. Definitely not “I am is the one speaking to you!”

In John 9 Jesus heals the blind man. Is this really the beggar who used to sit groping in the dark? Some people said, "Yes, it's him all right." Other said, "No, he just looks like him." But the beggar says, " ego eimi!" JUST LIKE JESUS... And the translators have no problem writing, "I am the one." So why aren't the translators consistent? Why not capitalize what this blind man says as I AM? Because it is clear that he is not claiming to be the God of the Old Testament. Saying "I am" (ego eimi) does not make somebody God in the Bible!

What Jesus is saying is simply “Before Abraham was born, I am he,” that is, "I am the Messiah."

Notice the context in John 8:56 where Jesus says, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day." By faith Abraham looked forward and saw the coming Messiah before he came in history. He believed the promise that God would send the Promised One. On the other hand these Jews did not believe that Jesus was their Messiah. They were claiming to be Abraham's descendents. Jesus said that this was impossible for they did not recognize him as their Messiah. But Jesus asserts that even before Abraham was born, he is the One who was always in God's plan. This Abraham believe and saw. The Messiah preexisted in God's plan and therefore in Abraham's believing mind, because he trusted the promise of God. Jesus positively did not say, before Abraham was, I was." Also, Jesus did not say, “Before Abraham was, I AM WHAT I AM."

The conclusion is inevitable. Jesus’ claim "Before Abraham was born, I am he" is the straightforward claim that he is the long promised one, the Messiah, the One in question. Jesus is the Savior in God's promise even before Abraham was born.


The Jewish leaders were very well aware of what Jesus was saying about himself! Jesus Was not claiming to be God but the Son of God as Shown in John 19:6. They give the very reason they wanted Him dead!

John 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. 7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Jesus, NEVER claimed to be God!

Kermos... next time please read the thread/post... before you try to teach against what your told!

You can let go of your spiritual ankles... Your teaching is complete!!!
Can you do Better?
Paul

The beggar in John 9 claims not perpetual existence prior to Abraham; on the other hand, Lord Jesus does.

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ declares His perpetual existence prior to Abraham with "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Now it's time to dispel with your delusion about Greek.

In Greek, the complete John 8:58 reads:

Εἴπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγώ εἰμι.

IN JOHN 8:58, "ἐγώ εἰμι" TRANSLATES ACCURATELY TO "I AM".

In the Septuagint, the complete Exodus 3:14 reads:

καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν Ἐγώ εἰµι ὁ ὤν· καὶ εἶπεν Οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ Ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν µε πρὸς ὑµᾶς.

IN EXODUS 3:14, "Ἐγώ εἰµι" TRANSLATES ACCURATELY TO "I AM".

The definitions for these two Greek words:

Strong's Greek: 1473. ἐγώ (egó) -- I (only expressed when emphatic)

Strong's Greek: 1510. εἰμί (eimi) -- I exist, I am

The "Ἐγώ εἰµι" in Exodus 3:14 matches the "ἐγώ εἰμι" in John 8:58.

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the One" (Exodus 3:14, Ἐγώ εἰµι ὁ ὤν" in Septuagint), YHWH God.

The context of Jesus' words are absolutely Spiritually clear that He is YHWH God, and these posts illuminate this Truth (John 14:6) scripturally "the John 8:58 without mentioning Exodus 3:14 post" in this thread, "the John 8:58 including Exodus 3:14 post" in this thread, and "the Exodus 3:14 lexical and scriptural implication of 'I AM' compared to 'I will be' post" in this thread,

"My Lord and my God" testified the Apostle Thomas to Jesus Christ (John 20:28), so Apostolic teaching is that Jesus Christ is YHWH God.

 

[Kermos]

Hello to you,

there was one day I decided to do a study on the subject of who is the word of life? Who is Word of God? Who is Jesus Christ?

I don’t believe in the trinity you won’t hear me explain it in the traditional sense but I will be using scripture to support scripture in what is presented.

I use to believe in the trinity now I do not and the Bible helped me see just a little bit more about how God is not three persons in one… I use to go along with the crowd just to fit in… the one day someone presented something against the trinity and it opened my eyes to trust scripture and seek for God in spirit and truth in that regard to know Him and his Son better.

Overall I will point out the scriptures also pertaining to how Jesus is also known as the Lord God Almighty.

Each of these passages of scripture specifically mention each person of God, such as proper noun or pronoun, Genesis 1:26 (plurality of persons in the One True God), Isaiah 48:16 (all three persons in the One True God mentioned), Romans 1:7 (person of the Father), John 8:58 (person of the Son, referring back to Exodus 3:14), and John 15:26 (person of the Holy Spirit).

I use person here to mean personification, existence, a word for humans to interface.

The Word of God reveals that YHWH God is the person of the Father and the person of the Word and the person of the Holy Spirit. YHWH God is the One True God.

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

So, one week before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM ring true.

And, two weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM resound true.

And, three weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM are true.

And, the minute prior to the minute any of all the angels were created Jesus' words of I AM trumpet true.

And, the week prior to any of the angels being created Jesus' words of I AM harmonize truthfully.

No matter when in time one seeks before Abraham was born, Jesus Christ's words of I AM remain absolutely true.

Going back in time, Jesus is always I AM, never created, He is always I AM.

Going back in time, anytime in all eternity because Jesus says "before Abraham" with no exceptions, Jesus Being.

Behold, Going back in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time.

Jesus says "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

The angel Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Behold, Going forward in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going forward in time.

GOD is exclusively the One that IS EVERLASTING going back in time and going forward in time.

God is everlasting.

Jesus is everlasting.

No one except God is everlasting.

Everlasting YHWH God is Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8, see also Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13), thus says He Who is coming on the clouds!

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.

 

[MatthewG]

Cool thank you for sharing, your insights.

Kermos.

 

[Kermos]

I am the Alpha and the Omega.

This is referenced to Revelation 1:8. But Revelation 1:8 is talking about The Almighty, Revelation 22:12 is not using this title for Jesus but for God again. If we read Revelation 22:6 it tells us who the subject is, "The Lord, the God of prophetic spirits." Jesus does say in Revelation 1:17 that, "I am the first and the last." We shall examine what he meant by that statement.

Just because the same title is used to describe two people does not mean that those two people are one. As we can easily read… David called King Saul "My Lord " but that does not make Saul God (1 Samuel 24:8).

Israel’s Judges were called "saviors" but that does not make them and Jesus one person? (Nehemiah 9:27).

Jeroboam the Second of Israel is called "Israel’s savior," but that does not make him Jesus? (2 Kings 13:5)

Before we discuss these verses it would benefit us to understand John’s view of God.

Examples:

John 17:3

"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Revelation 1:6

"Who (Jesus) has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."

John 20:17

"But go to my brothers and tell them, "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

In these verses John does not consider Jesus to be God in any way. For john writes... Jesus has a God. John also does not believe Jesus to be omniscient even after his resurrected state. Revelation 1:1 says:

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him."

Even after his resurrection Jesus is not omniscient. God still gives him revelations. Emphasis on God gives him. Now we will look at Revelation 1:17 with the correct background of John’s thinking, and not with a mind set on making Jesus God at all costs.

It is obvious that God Almighty is the first and the last, but how is Jesus also the first and the last? Jesus is the first because he is the firstborn in two ways. One, he is the firstborn of God, which to the Jews implied that as the firstborn you are entitled to be the heir of your father, which Jesus is (Hebrews 1:2). Also according to Strong’s Greek Dictionary it means foremost in importance, which Jesus certainly is. This also corresponds with Psalms 89: 28 - 30.

Secondly, Jesus is the firstborn from the dead to be resurrected, which is what Jesus is speaking about in Revelation 1:18 which follows his statement that he is the first and the last. It reads:

"I am the first and the last, the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever."

This is also is in agreement with Colossians 1: 18. Jesus is the last because when he comes again it will be the end of the present age, and he will be in effect the last one to enter this world while it is still under the influence of Satan. He will then usher in the Messianic kingdom of God


Study Harder...
Paul

Spiritual matters clearly elude you. You are blind to the fact that Revelation 1:8 contains Jesus' words as shown below. You wickedly try to deceive by your evil thoughts that Revelation 22:12-13 is not Jesus per your doctrine of deception, yet the below exposes your sin.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8) is Jesus speaking the words within the quotations and John ascribing "says the Lord God" to Jesus because Jesus identifies Himself as "the Alpha and the Omega" in Revelation 21:6 when He who sits on "the throne of God and of the Lamb" (Revelation 22:1) says "I am the Alpha and the Omega" (Revelation 21:6).

Furthermore, we find He who sits on the throne saying "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end' (Revelation 22:12-13), and Jesus is the One who is coming because He says He is "'coming on the clouds" (Matthew 24:30).

NOW, BACK TO JESUS USING "THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA" TO DESCRIBE HIMSELF IN REVELATION 1:8.

"'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.'" (Revelation 1:8) is Jesus speaking!

John further identifies Jesus as the orator of Revelation 1:8 by immediately preceding Revelation 1:8 with "to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever, truly" in Revelation 1:7 - the Him is Jesus.

So, here is the Revelation 1:7-8 passage uninterrupted by verse numbers:

"to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Truly. 'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.'"

The Him is Jesus.

The Alpha and the Omega is Jesus.

The Lord God is Jesus.

The One who is and who was and who is to come is Jesus.

The Almighty is Jesus.

 

[Kermos]

I am the Alpha and the Omega.

This is referenced to Revelation 1:8. But Revelation 1:8 is talking about The Almighty, Revelation 22:12 is not using this title for Jesus but for God again. If we read Revelation 22:6 it tells us who the subject is, "The Lord, the God of prophetic spirits." Jesus does say in Revelation 1:17 that, "I am the first and the last." We shall examine what he meant by that statement.

Just because the same title is used to describe two people does not mean that those two people are one. As we can easily read… David called King Saul "My Lord " but that does not make Saul God (1 Samuel 24:8).

Israel’s Judges were called "saviors" but that does not make them and Jesus one person? (Nehemiah 9:27).

Jeroboam the Second of Israel is called "Israel’s savior," but that does not make him Jesus? (2 Kings 13:5)

Before we discuss these verses it would benefit us to understand John’s view of God.

Examples:

John 17:3
"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Revelation 1:6
"Who (Jesus) has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."

John 20:17
"But go to my brothers and tell them, "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

In these verses John does not consider Jesus to be God in any way. For John, Jesus has a God. John also does not believe Jesus to be omniscient even after his resurrected state. Revelation 1:1 says:

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him."

Even after his resurrection Jesus is not omniscient. God still gives him revelations. Emphasis on God gives him. Now we will look at Revelation 1:17 with the correct background of John’s thinking, and not with a mind set on making Jesus God at all costs.

It is obvious that God Almighty is the first and the last, but how is Jesus also the first and the last? Jesus is the first because he is the firstborn in two ways. One, he is the firstborn of God, which to the Jews implied that as the firstborn you are entitled to be the heir of your father, which Jesus is (Hebrews 1:2). Also according to Strong’s Greek Dictionary it means foremost in importance, which Jesus certainly is. This also corresponds with Psalms 89: 28 - 30.

Secondly, Jesus is the firstborn from the dead to be resurrected, which is what Jesus is speaking about in Revelation 1:18 which follows his statement that he is the first and the last. It reads:

"I am the first and the last, the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever."

This is also is in agreement with Colossians 1: 18. Jesus is the last because when he comes again it will be the end of the present age, and he will be in effect the last one to enter this world while it is still under the influence of Satan. He will then usher in the Messianic kingdom of God

Try harder... you can let go of your ankles now... Your spiritual spanking is complete!
Paul

Confusion about Jesus mentioned near the word "creation" in Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 abounds, but this compilation clarifies the matter scripturally and Spiritually. First, here are the passages.

"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this" (Revelation 3:14).

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15),

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove your error:

• Paul explained the firstborn in relation to the born of God persons (John 3:3-8) in this passage related to Colossians 1:15 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29).
• Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) and the firstborn of creation in that:
  • "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION (REVELATION 3:14).
  • "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15), SO THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS (JOHN 3:3-8).
  Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.
  • In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God, Almight Creator of Heaven and Earth.
  • Since Jesus can say one sentence with multiple meanings; therefore, in Revelation 3:14, also, we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the Beginning of the resurrection among many brothers born of God for He says to the self same assembly "He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne" (Revelation 3:21). Jesus is the leader among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia).
  • In Colossians 1:15 we find Paul referring to Christ in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the firstborn after the crucifixion among many brothers born of God. Jesus is the leader among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia).
• Colossians 1:15 does not state that the Son of God, Jesus Christ, was created.
• Revelation 3:14 does not state that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was created.
• Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He is YHWH God for there is NO other (Isaiah 45:5).

You are deathly confused about who God is. You regurgitate the Watchtower Society deceptions, so their lies are your lies. Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote “nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life” (Revelation 21:27) – notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and you are a human adding to scripture and/or subtracting from scripture, so you are the human lying.

 

[Kermos]

Poignant, @PinSeeker!

 

[Kermos]

Elohim

Elohim has been a very confusing word for many people. The word elohim is used various ways in Scripture. It is not only used to describe the Almighty, but also individual pagan gods and even mighty human beings. Elohim may be translated as God, god, angels, judges, or even a human being who stands as God's representative or agent. For example, the sons of Heth address Abraham as "a mighty prince," the word for "mighty" being elohim (Genesis 23:6). Some translations have Abraham here being called "Prince of God." Take another instance. In Exodus 4, the Lord tells Moses that he "shall be as God" (elohim) to his brother Aaron. Moses will have God's words in his mouth, and will stand as God's representative before Aaron. Here is a case where an individual human is called elohim. Again in Exodus 7:1, the Lord says to Moses, "See, I make you God [elohim] to Pharaoh." No one dares to suggest that there is a plurality of persons within Moses because he is called elohim, that is, God's representative. The pagan god Dagon is also called elohim in the Hebrew Bible. The Philistines lamented that the God of Israel was harshly treating "Dagon our God [elohim]" (1 Sam. 5:7). Dagon was a single pagan deity. The same holds true for the single pagan god called Chemosh: “Do you not possess what Chemosh your god [elohim] gives you to possess?" (Jud. 11:24). The same for the single deity called Baal.

The Hebrew language has many examples of words which are plural but whose meaning is singular. In Genesis 23, Abraham's wife Sarah dies. The Hebrew text says, "the lives [plural] of Sarah were 127 years" (v. 1). Even the plural verb that accompanies the pronoun does not mean Sarah lived multiple lives. The Hebrews never taught reincarnation or plurality of personhood. Another example of this kind of anomaly in the Hebrew language is found in Genesis 43. After Joseph wept to see his brothers, we read that Joseph "washed his faces" (plural). This is another instance where in the Hebrew language the plural noun functions as a singular noun with a singular meaning, unless, of course, Joseph was a multi-faced human being! The same occurs in Genesis 16:8 where Hagar flees from "the faces" (plural) of her mistress Sarah. These are "anomalies" of the Hebrew language that are clearly understood by Hebrew scholars who rightly translate to a singular form in English.

The better explanation is that the Hebrews used a form of speech called "the plural of majesty." Put simply this means that someone whose position was warrant of dignity was spoken in this way as giving a sign of honor. The plural acted as a means of intensification:

Elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty.

Whenever the word elohim refers to the God of Israel the Septuagint uses the singular and not the plural. From Genesis 1:1 consistently right through, this holds true. The Hebrews who translated their own scriptures into Greek simply had no idea that their God could be more than one individual, or a multiple personal Being! This is true too when we come to the New Testament. The New Testament nowhere hints at a plurality in the meaning of elohim when it reproduces references to the One God as ho theos, the One God.

You have no idea of the culture you speak... You think every belief revolves around you and your liberal American culture...

Paul

You bear false witness about me when you wrote "You have no idea of the culture you speak", so you sin by your violation of "You shall not bear false witness" (Exodus 20:16)!

Now, Pierac, see that I am not relating the word elohim to "angels, judges, or even a human being" because I wrote about Genesis 1:26 which contains the words "God", "Us", and "Our" in the post to which you replied - and the relevant three paragraphs are quoted here:

The plurality of "Us" matches precisely with the plurality of "Elohim" ("God"); therefore, the "Us" is representative of the person of the Father and the person of the Word of God and the person of the Holy Spirit of God.

Incorporating John's message of "All things" (John 1:3) with "Let Us make man" (Genesis 1:26) proves that the "Us" absolutely demonstrates that Jesus is YHWH God because the "Us" is "God" in Genesis 1:26.

Your WICKED LIE that the "Us" in Genesis 1:26 represents created creatures is tantamount to you denying Jesus thus your deception results in everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46) - whether you believe in everlasting punishment or not.

It is written "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God" (Genesis 5:1); therefore, the "Us" in Genesis 1:26 refers to YHWH God alone, not "angels, judges, or even a human being".

You are confusing so much about who God is!

Since you unceremoniously injected yourself into @Keiw and my correspondence about Genesis 1:26 taking up keiw's deception, then you are effectively assuming keiw's position with keiw's prior writings on this matter, so you'll see quotes of keiw that are now assigned to you. You entered yourself as a proxy of sorts for keiw.

Now, back to your evil writing.

Behold your evil lie for you wrote "Theone whom he created all other things through."; on the other hand, the Apostle John wrote "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3).

You added the word "other".

You "all other things".

John "All things".

Since John proclaimed "All things", then Jesus cannot be created for Jesus created "All things"; furthermore, since John proclaimed "All things", then Jesus is Creator God, that is, YHWH God.

Your evil deception includes that you think Jesus is not YHWH God, so you disbelieve in Jesus.

Now, this brings us to the "Us" in Genesis 1:26.

The Hebrew word Elohim is the English word God in Genesis 1:26.

"Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness'" (Genesis 1:26).

The Hebrew word Elohim represents God in plurality, that is, One Being called God in multiple persons.

Your imaginary rule about Elohim not being plural IS YOUR EVIL LIE.

The plurality of "Us" matches precisely with the plurality of "Elohim" ("God"); therefore, the "Us" is representative of the person of the Father and the person of the Word of God and the person of the Holy Spirit of God.

There are NO created creatures in "Elohim" nor the "Us" in Genesis 1:26.

Incorporating John's message of "All things" (John 1:3) with "Let Us make man" (Genesis 1:26) proves that the "Us" absolutely demonstrates that Jesus is YHWH God because the "Us" is "God" in Genesis 1:26.

Your WICKED LIE that the "Us" in Genesis 1:26 represents created creatures is tantamount to you denying Jesus thus your deception results in everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46) - whether you believe in everlasting punishment or not.