A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8) is Jesus speaking the words within the quotations and John ascribing "says the Lord God" to Jesus because Jesus identifies Himself as "the Alpha and the Omega" in Revelation 21:6 when He who sits on "the throne of God and of the Lamb" (Revelation 22:1) says "I am the Alpha and the Omega" (Revelation 21:6).

Furthermore, we find He who sits on the throne saying "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end' (Revelation 22:12-13), and Jesus is the One who is coming because He says He is "'coming on the clouds" (Matthew 24:30).

NOW, BACK TO JESUS USING "THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA" TO DESCRIBE HIMSELF IN REVELATION 1:8.

"'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.'" (Revelation 1:8) is Jesus speaking!

John further identifies Jesus as the orator of Revelation 1:8 by immediately preceding Revelation 1:8 with "to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever, truly" in Revelation 1:7 - the Him is Jesus.

So, here is the Revelation 1:7-8 passage uninterrupted by verse numbers:

"to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Truly. 'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.'"

The Him is Jesus.

The Alpha and the Omega is Jesus.

The Lord God is Jesus.

The One who is and who was and who is to come is Jesus.

The Almighty is Jesus.

 

[keithr]

Look, I explained my perspective of your writing about 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 based upon your writings. Your posts #424 and #464 occur after my post #420, so those posts were not a part of your post #390 to which I replied in post #420; furthermore, your posts #424 and #464 did not exist when I composed post #420.

Enough! Do not expect further responses to your dispute about my interpretation of your post quoted in my post 420.

Ok, I'll take that as an admission that you were wrong to state that "Christ will reign forever and ever in the Kingdom which contrasts against your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:24-28", seeing as you don't seem to want to admit that you got it wrong. I won't comment on it further.

 

[PinSeeker]

You are wrong.

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion. It bothers me not.

The watchtower didn't show me those versions of the bible, I googled them.

AHHH!!! You GOOGLED them! Yeah, so they must be fact. I see... Yeah, the great thing about the internet is that you can find anything. But the terrible thing about the internet is (also) that you can find anything.

They are fact.

Because you... googled them. Yeah, what Google says has just GOT to be factual... Especially if it comes from the Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses... Again, the great thing about the internet is, you can find anything. But the terrible thing about the internet is ~ likewise ~ that you can find, like I said, anything.

The religion that came out of Rome added a trinity god at a council in 381.

I mean, there was a council that met in 381 ~ the First Council of Constantinople ~ but this council was a second, really (after the council of Nicea in 325), which met with the intent of attaining a consensus in the church and confirmed the Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, begotten from the Father before all ages, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made; of the same essence as the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation He came down from heaven; He became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary, and was made human. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried. The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures. He ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will never end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life. He proceeds from the Father and the Son, and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified. He spoke through the prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church. We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and to life in the world to come. Amen.​

This is not to be confused with Catholicism, but rather only confirms that there is one apostolic and catholic (universal) church, that of Christ Jesus Himself. Yes, there was a group that, well, took this and ran with it, and claimed to be the catholic church, thus claiming exclusivity ~ like Jehovah's Witnesses do now, since the Watchtower came to be in the 1830s ("Everybody has been wrong for 1800+ years!") ~ and therefore came to call itself The Catholic Church. Ah, the schemes of men... No, the Church of Jesus Christ is really invisible to us right now, in the sense that none of us know, absolutely, who God's elect really are. We can be sure in ourselves, for sure; this is faith, the assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen.

They did subtle mistranslating to fit those false council teachings...

Again, the Watchtower/Jehovah's Witness narrative. Yes, they take it as fact. But it is a misleading.

When men were finally allowed to read the bible for themselves in the 1500s...

See, there's some truth to this... some... but not as much as Jehovah's Witnesses want to suppose. And that was never Biblical, even from the beginning. The Word of God is for everyone:

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."

Even in Revelation, seemingly ~ seemingly ~ the hardest-to-understand book in the Bible, John says:

"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near."

Yes, the Bible is for all of us, and we can all understand it.

...could clearly see the prior religions own translating still exposed them as false.

A lot of problems with this little statement:

* "Clearly see..." Yes, the Watchtower folks could "clearly see"...

* "Prior religions..."

* "Prior religions translating..."

That is because Jesus was never with that religion. It was started by satans will. No branch fixed it. there are 34,000 of them...

...a house divided will not stand--do you understand that? They fail 100% 1 Cor 1:10 -- Unity of thought, no division.

Paul, in 1 Corinthians 1:0, Keiw, is not advocating brainwashing.

Grace and peace to you, Keiw.

 

[Marymog]

There's no difference between man serving Jesus Christ and man serving God- Jesus is God.

The reason I'm not a trinitarian is that I believe that the Father/Son/Spirit are 1 God via unity rather than via a shared substance as stated in the Trinitarian Creeds (most notably the Athanasian Creed).

Hey Jane,

They are 1 God via unity. But are they not individual also?

Respectfully, Mary

 

[Keiw]

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion. It bothers me not.


AHHH!!! You GOOGLED them! Yeah, so they must be fact. I see... Yeah, the great thing about the internet is that you can find anything. But the terrible thing about the internet is (also) that you can find anything.


Because you... googled them. Yeah, what Google says has just GOT to be factual... Especially if it comes from the Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses... Again, the great thing about the internet is, you can find anything. But the terrible thing about the internet is ~ likewise ~ that you can find, like I said, anything.


I mean, there was a council that met in 381 ~ the First Council of Constantinople ~ but this council was a second, really (after the council of Nicea in 325), which met with the intent of attaining a consensus in the church and confirmed the Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, begotten from the Father before all ages, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made; of the same essence as the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation He came down from heaven; He became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary, and was made human. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried. The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures. He ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will never end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life. He proceeds from the Father and the Son, and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified. He spoke through the prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church. We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and to life in the world to come. Amen.​

This is not to be confused with Catholicism, but rather only confirms that there is one apostolic and catholic (universal) church, that of Christ Jesus Himself. Yes, there was a group that, well, took this and ran with it, and claimed to be the catholic church, thus claiming exclusivity ~ like Jehovah's Witnesses do now, since the Watchtower came to be in the 1830s ("Everybody has been wrong for 1800+ years!") ~ and therefore came to call itself The Catholic Church. Ah, the schemes of men... No, the Church of Jesus Christ is really invisible to us right now, in the sense that none of us know, absolutely, who God's elect really are. We can be sure in ourselves, for sure; this is faith, the assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen.


Again, the Watchtower/Jehovah's Witness narrative. Yes, they take it as fact. But it is a misleading.


See, there's some truth to this... some... but not as much as Jehovah's Witnesses want to suppose. And that was never Biblical, even from the beginning. The Word of God is for everyone:

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."

Even in Revelation, seemingly ~ seemingly ~ the hardest-to-understand book in the Bible, John says:

"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near."

Yes, the Bible is for all of us, and we can all understand it.


A lot of problems with this little statement:

* "Clearly see..." Yes, the Watchtower folks could "clearly see"...

* "Prior religions..."

* "Prior religions translating..."

Paul, in 1 Corinthians 1:0, Keiw, is not advocating brainwashing.

Grace and peace to you, Keiw.

It doesnt seem strange to you that what i show from the bible is truth, backed by scriptures and the opposite things are shown in some translations? Why do you think that is? Why do you think the trinity religions have 34,000 different ones, all claim to have holy spirit. But all creation can see a mass of confusion= no holy spirit.
And Why do you think that the Israelite religion never served a trinity God, but the bible is clear they served the true God( sometimes)? Yes you will throw anything away a JW shows you and say it is not truth. Why? Because the house divided that will not stand assurred you we are the ones in error. Those same religions know 100% Gods name belongs in the OT in nearly 6800 spots, but then turn and condemn the ones who had the love for God to put the name back in. That name belongs in the NT as well. Jerome told the Pope back in the 300,s that fact but would not let the name be put back in. Pray for truth to enter your heart.

 

[Keiw]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8) is Jesus speaking the words within the quotations and John ascribing "says the Lord God" to Jesus because Jesus identifies Himself as "the Alpha and the Omega" in Revelation 21:6 when He who sits on "the throne of God and of the Lamb" (Revelation 22:1) says "I am the Alpha and the Omega" (Revelation 21:6).

Furthermore, we find He who sits on the throne saying "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end' (Revelation 22:12-13), and Jesus is the One who is coming because He says He is "'coming on the clouds" (Matthew 24:30).

NOW, BACK TO JESUS USING "THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA" TO DESCRIBE HIMSELF IN REVELATION 1:8.

"'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.'" (Revelation 1:8) is Jesus speaking!

John further identifies Jesus as the orator of Revelation 1:8 by immediately preceding Revelation 1:8 with "to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever, truly" in Revelation 1:7 - the Him is Jesus.

So, here is the Revelation 1:7-8 passage uninterrupted by verse numbers:

"to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Truly. 'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.'"

The Him is Jesus.

The Alpha and the Omega is Jesus.

The Lord God is Jesus.

The One who is and who was and who is to come is Jesus.

The Almighty is Jesus.

Rev 1:8 is Jehovah, not Jesus. Jesus is never called the almighty, only Jehovah is. At the end of Rev 20 is when Jesus hands the kingdom back to his God and Father--So Rev 21 is about Jehovah as well. Not a single true follower believes God has a God. Jesus has a God, Why do you refuse to believe him?

 

[PinSeeker]

It doesnt seem strange to you that what i show from the bible is truth...

That's just it, Keiw, most of what you "showed from the Bible is truth" is quite different from what the Bible actually says and means. Some of which I demonstrated, and some of which I just dismissed.

That's quite enough of this for me.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Keiw]

That's just it, Keiw, most of what you "showed from the Bible is truth" is quite different from what the Bible actually says and means. Some of which I demonstrated, and some of which I just dismissed.

That's quite enough of this for me.

Grace and peace to you.

The wise believe Jesus- John 20:17, Rev 3:12, John 4:22-24--He is the way, truth and life.

 

[Kermos]

How many Gods does the bible say exists? 1 is the answer--Paul named him at 1 Cor 8:5-6--The Father. Jesus is not called God there. Jesus is never called Ho Theos in the Greek language. It is proven fact. Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1 gets-a god.

Since both you and @Aunty Jane (via her "like" of your post) treasure your claim that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1 gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods).

You and Aunty Jane clearly violate YHWH God's commandment "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

YHWH God declares "I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

Yet you and Aunty Jane sin by having two gods which means that you do not know YHWH God.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1) truthfully (John 14:6) indicates that Jesus is YHWH God.

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Truly, Jesus is God with us (Matthew 1:23). Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

It is proven fact-Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT, only the Father is. That proves 100% a god belongs in the last line at John 1:1--Your translations are erred-Its fact--34,000 trinity religions = a house divided, they will not stand-34,000 false religions will fall, this is coming very soon. God warned all--GET OUT OF HER.

Jesus is God for the Apostle Peter confessed this Truth with "our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1, "God" is "tou Theou" in Greek), moreover, Peter, who walked with Jesus, restates that which Jesus says "I and the father are One" (John 10:30).

YOU LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT".

You have been exposed as a liar about the Bible when you wickedly added 1914 AD into chapter six of the Book of Revelation as shown in post #427 in this thread; therefore, you are an unreliable source.

 

[Pierac]

Let's see, first I addressed my post certain individuals, and you called them "crap".

Then, in the first paragraph of the post body, I quoted the Word of God saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so you called the Word of God crap.

Later in your post, you added "he", which is "auto" in Greek, to "ego eimi" at the conclusion of John 8:58, so the result of your contrivance is "ego eimi auto". You did this right before you wrote "Notice the context". You wickedly and pridefully add to the Word of God in order to change His meaning to your humanistic thoughts.

The context of Jesus' words are absolutely Spiritually clear that He is YHWH God, and these posts illuminate this Truth (John 14:6) scripturally "the John 8:58 without mentioning Exodus 3:14 post" in this thread, "the John 8:58 including Exodus 3:14 post" in this thread, and "the Exodus 3:14 lexical and scriptural implication of 'I AM' compared to 'I will be' post" in this thread,

"My Lord and my God" testified the Apostle Thomas to Jesus Christ (John 20:28), so Apostolic teaching is that Jesus Christ is YHWH God.

Spoken from a child whom does not read Greek!

There has been quite a bit of discussion on John 8:58. What happened to this verse as to confuse so many? Let's start in Exodus.

KJV Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Now we shall read the same verse from the Greek Septuagint

Septuagint Exo 3:14 και ειπεν ο θεος προς μωυσην [εγω ειμι ο ων] και ειπεν ουτως ερεις τοις υιοις ισραηλ [ο ων] απεσταλκεν με προς υμας
Note the two separate Greek words used for 'am'

Concordant Literal Version Exo 3:14 Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just as I am coming to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-to-Be has sent me to you.
Now when translated literally you get a whole different look. What happened to the other I am's?

The Hebrew Bible uses the word (hâyâh H1961) in the place of "Am" which is a verb meaning to exist, to be.
Check the Strongs' number.

Clearly Jesus did not say (εγω ειμι ο ων) nor did he state (ο ων), in John 8:58. Jesus spoke the words (εγω ειμι) just like other people in the bible who are not God. So just what was Jesus saying?

But what about the great "I Am him" statement of Jesus? Especially that classic one in John 8:58 where Jesus says, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born I am"?

Surely here Jesus makes the same claim for himself that Jehovah God made back in Exodus 3 where the LORD says to Moses at the burning Bush "I Am Who I Am." Surely Jesus is claiming to be the I AM of the Old Testament as Trinitarian belief asserts?

Now here is something very obvious that YOU never heard in church. This expression from Jesus' lips "I am" (Greek ego eimi) occurs throughout the Gospel of John and in no other text in John can it mean I AM, the God of the Old Testament and nor do the translators try to make it so!

Go back to John 4:25-26 for instance. The woman at the well said to Jesus, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when that one comes, he will declare all things to us." And Jesus said to her, "I who speak with you am he." You will notice that in most Bibles that word he is in italics. This means that the translators have correctly supplied a word in English that is not in the Greek but that nevertheless makes the intended sense quite clear. Here Jesus says to the woman - in the context of her question about the Messiah - that he is the Messiah, the Christ. "I who speak to you am he." In the Greek it reads ego eimi. Jesus simply says I am he, the Messiah. Definitely not “I am is the one speaking to you!”

In John 9 Jesus heals the blind man. Is this really the beggar who used to sit groping in the dark? Some people said, "Yes, it's him all right." Other said, "No, he just looks like him." But the beggar says, " ego eimi!" JUST LIKE JESUS... And the translators have no problem writing, "I am the one." So why aren't the translators consistent? Why not capitalize what this blind man says as I AM? Because it is clear that he is not claiming to be the God of the Old Testament. Saying "I am" (ego eimi) does not make somebody God in the Bible!

What Jesus is saying is simply “Before Abraham was born, I am he,” that is, "I am the Messiah."

Notice the context in John 8:56 where Jesus says, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day." By faith Abraham looked forward and saw the coming Messiah before he came in history. He believed the promise that God would send the Promised One. On the other hand these Jews did not believe that Jesus was their Messiah. They were claiming to be Abraham's descendents. Jesus said that this was impossible for they did not recognize him as their Messiah. But Jesus asserts that even before Abraham was born, he is the One who was always in God's plan. This Abraham believe and saw. The Messiah preexisted in God's plan and therefore in Abraham's believing mind, because he trusted the promise of God. Jesus positively did not say, before Abraham was, I was." Also, Jesus did not say, “Before Abraham was, I AM WHAT I AM."

The conclusion is inevitable. Jesus’ claim "Before Abraham was born, I am he" is the straightforward claim that he is the long promised one, the Messiah, the One in question. Jesus is the Savior in God's promise even before Abraham was born.


The Jewish leaders were very well aware of what Jesus was saying about himself! Jesus Was not claiming to be God but the Son of God as Shown in John 19:6. They give the very reason they wanted Him dead!

John 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. 7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Jesus, NEVER claimed to be God!

Kermos... next time please read the thread/post... before you try to teach against what your told!

You can let go of your spiritual ankles... Your teaching is complete!!!
Can you do Better?
Paul

 

[Pierac]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8) is Jesus speaking the words within the quotations and John ascribing "says the Lord God" to Jesus because Jesus identifies Himself as "the Alpha and the Omega" in Revelation 21:6 when He who sits on "the throne of God and of the Lamb" (Revelation 22:1) says "I am the Alpha and the Omega" (Revelation 21:6).

Furthermore, we find He who sits on the throne saying "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end' (Revelation 22:12-13), and Jesus is the One who is coming because He says He is "'coming on the clouds" (Matthew 24:30).

NOW, BACK TO JESUS USING "THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA" TO DESCRIBE HIMSELF IN REVELATION 1:8.

"'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.'" (Revelation 1:8) is Jesus speaking!

John further identifies Jesus as the orator of Revelation 1:8 by immediately preceding Revelation 1:8 with "to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever, truly" in Revelation 1:7 - the Him is Jesus.

So, here is the Revelation 1:7-8 passage uninterrupted by verse numbers:

"to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Truly. 'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.'"

The Him is Jesus.

The Alpha and the Omega is Jesus.

The Lord God is Jesus.

The One who is and who was and who is to come is Jesus.

The Almighty is Jesus.

I am the Alpha and the Omega.

This is referenced to Revelation 1:8. But Revelation 1:8 is talking about The Almighty, Revelation 22:12 is not using this title for Jesus but for God again. If we read Revelation 22:6 it tells us who the subject is, "The Lord, the God of prophetic spirits." Jesus does say in Revelation 1:17 that, "I am the first and the last." We shall examine what he meant by that statement.

Just because the same title is used to describe two people does not mean that those two people are one. As we can easily read… David called King Saul "My Lord " but that does not make Saul God (1 Samuel 24:8).

Israel’s Judges were called "saviors" but that does not make them and Jesus one person? (Nehemiah 9:27).

Jeroboam the Second of Israel is called "Israel’s savior," but that does not make him Jesus? (2 Kings 13:5)

Before we discuss these verses it would benefit us to understand John’s view of God.

Examples:

John 17:3

"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Revelation 1:6

"Who (Jesus) has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."

John 20:17

"But go to my brothers and tell them, "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

In these verses John does not consider Jesus to be God in any way. For john writes... Jesus has a God. John also does not believe Jesus to be omniscient even after his resurrected state. Revelation 1:1 says:

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him."

Even after his resurrection Jesus is not omniscient. God still gives him revelations. Emphasis on God gives him. Now we will look at Revelation 1:17 with the correct background of John’s thinking, and not with a mind set on making Jesus God at all costs.

It is obvious that God Almighty is the first and the last, but how is Jesus also the first and the last? Jesus is the first because he is the firstborn in two ways. One, he is the firstborn of God, which to the Jews implied that as the firstborn you are entitled to be the heir of your father, which Jesus is (Hebrews 1:2). Also according to Strong’s Greek Dictionary it means foremost in importance, which Jesus certainly is. This also corresponds with Psalms 89: 28 - 30.

Secondly, Jesus is the firstborn from the dead to be resurrected, which is what Jesus is speaking about in Revelation 1:18 which follows his statement that he is the first and the last. It reads:

"I am the first and the last, the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever."

This is also is in agreement with Colossians 1: 18. Jesus is the last because when he comes again it will be the end of the present age, and he will be in effect the last one to enter this world while it is still under the influence of Satan. He will then usher in the Messianic kingdom of God


Study Harder...
Paul

 

[Pierac]

No Jesus is not the holy spirit. The holy spirit isnt a living being. It has no name, no throne, God taught it nothing, nor shared anything with it like he did with the son. God and Jesus are mentioned as separate in many NT passages, Very important passages, the HS -0 in those important passages.

Yea... I have tried to show them so many times...

When reading in Exodus awhile back, I came upon the phrase "the finger of God." I was aware that the same phrase was used in the book of Luke regarding the method Jesus uses to cast out demons. I decided to do a phrase study using e-Sword. The following information is from my latest research.

Exo 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

Luk 11:14 Now he was casting out a demon that was mute. When the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke, and the people marveled. 15 But some of them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the prince of demons," 16 while others, to test him, kept seeking from him a sign from heaven…
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
I had also come upon Scriptures that says Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God. This would strongly lead to the conclusion that the finger of God is the Spirit of God the Father.

Mat 12:22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, "Can this be the Son of David?" 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons."
Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

When you connect Luke 11:20 with Matthew 12:28 then you get the understanding of what the finger of God is.
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Now the same is true with the Holy Spirit. We also have in the Bible two parallel teachings of the same subject one Matthew and one in Luke.
Luk 12:11 And when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not be anxious about how you should defend yourself or what you should say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

Mat 10:19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Likewise, when you connect to Matthew 10:20 with Luke 12:12 you get an understanding of what the Holy Spirit is. It is the Spirit of the Father. There is no separate being called the Holy Spirit. Again that's why the Holy Spirit is never worshiped, prayed to, or has a seat on a throne.

Paul

 

[Pierac]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

So, one week before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM ring true.

And, two weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM resound true.

And, three weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM are true.

And, the minute prior to the minute any of all the angels were created Jesus' words of I AM trumpet true.

And, the week prior to any of the angels being created Jesus' words of I AM harmonize truthfully.

No matter when in time one seeks before Abraham was born, Jesus Christ's words of I AM remain absolutely true.

Going back in time, Jesus is always I AM, never created, He is always I AM.

Going back in time, anytime in all eternity because Jesus says "before Abraham" with no exceptions, Jesus Being.

Behold, Going back in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time.

Jesus says "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

The angel Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Behold, Going forward in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going forward in time.

GOD is exclusively the One that IS EVERLASTING going back in time and going forward in time.

God is everlasting.

Jesus is everlasting.

No one except God is everlasting.

Everlasting YHWH God is Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8, see also Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13), thus says He Who is coming on the clouds!

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.

I am the Alpha and the Omega.

This is referenced to Revelation 1:8. But Revelation 1:8 is talking about The Almighty, Revelation 22:12 is not using this title for Jesus but for God again. If we read Revelation 22:6 it tells us who the subject is, "The Lord, the God of prophetic spirits." Jesus does say in Revelation 1:17 that, "I am the first and the last." We shall examine what he meant by that statement.

Just because the same title is used to describe two people does not mean that those two people are one. As we can easily read… David called King Saul "My Lord " but that does not make Saul God (1 Samuel 24:8).

Israel’s Judges were called "saviors" but that does not make them and Jesus one person? (Nehemiah 9:27).

Jeroboam the Second of Israel is called "Israel’s savior," but that does not make him Jesus? (2 Kings 13:5)

Before we discuss these verses it would benefit us to understand John’s view of God.

Examples:

John 17:3
"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Revelation 1:6
"Who (Jesus) has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."

John 20:17
"But go to my brothers and tell them, "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

In these verses John does not consider Jesus to be God in any way. For John, Jesus has a God. John also does not believe Jesus to be omniscient even after his resurrected state. Revelation 1:1 says:

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him."

Even after his resurrection Jesus is not omniscient. God still gives him revelations. Emphasis on God gives him. Now we will look at Revelation 1:17 with the correct background of John’s thinking, and not with a mind set on making Jesus God at all costs.

It is obvious that God Almighty is the first and the last, but how is Jesus also the first and the last? Jesus is the first because he is the firstborn in two ways. One, he is the firstborn of God, which to the Jews implied that as the firstborn you are entitled to be the heir of your father, which Jesus is (Hebrews 1:2). Also according to Strong’s Greek Dictionary it means foremost in importance, which Jesus certainly is. This also corresponds with Psalms 89: 28 - 30.

Secondly, Jesus is the firstborn from the dead to be resurrected, which is what Jesus is speaking about in Revelation 1:18 which follows his statement that he is the first and the last. It reads:

"I am the first and the last, the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever."

This is also is in agreement with Colossians 1: 18. Jesus is the last because when he comes again it will be the end of the present age, and he will be in effect the last one to enter this world while it is still under the influence of Satan. He will then usher in the Messianic kingdom of God

Try harder... you can let go of your ankles now... Your spiritual spanking is complete!
Paul

 

[Pierac]

Paul wrote "there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5), so the Man Jesus is with God for we born of God (John 3:3-8).

Paul mentioned "Man" just like the next paragraph.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

"But when He, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come" says Lord Jesus (John 16:13).

Therefore we born of God are guided into "all the truth" by the Holy Spirit, and we are blessed to know God!

Some reminders.

The New World Translation fails to match the Greek, so the NWT is corrupt, and the NWT contributes to your corruption because you feed on the NWT.

Behold your evil lie for you wrote "Theone whom he created all other things through."; on the other hand, the Apostle John wrote "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3).

The plurality of "Us" matches precisely with the plurality of "Elohim" ("God"); therefore, the "Us" is representative of the person of the Father and the person of the Word of God and the person of the Holy Spirit of God.

Incorporating John's message of "All things" (John 1:3) with "Let Us make man" (Genesis 1:26) proves that the "Us" absolutely demonstrates that Jesus is YHWH God because the "Us" is "God" in Genesis 1:26.

Your WICKED LIE that the "Us" in Genesis 1:26 represents created creatures is tantamount to you denying Jesus thus your deception results in everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46) - whether you believe in everlasting punishment or not.

Elohim

Elohim has been a very confusing word for many people. The word elohim is used various ways in Scripture. It is not only used to describe the Almighty, but also individual pagan gods and even mighty human beings. Elohim may be translated as God, god, angels, judges, or even a human being who stands as God's representative or agent. For example, the sons of Heth address Abraham as "a mighty prince," the word for "mighty" being elohim (Genesis 23:6). Some translations have Abraham here being called "Prince of God." Take another instance. In Exodus 4, the Lord tells Moses that he "shall be as God" (elohim) to his brother Aaron. Moses will have God's words in his mouth, and will stand as God's representative before Aaron. Here is a case where an individual human is called elohim. Again in Exodus 7:1, the Lord says to Moses, "See, I make you God [elohim] to Pharaoh." No one dares to suggest that there is a plurality of persons within Moses because he is called elohim, that is, God's representative. The pagan god Dagon is also called elohim in the Hebrew Bible. The Philistines lamented that the God of Israel was harshly treating "Dagon our God [elohim]" (1 Sam. 5:7). Dagon was a single pagan deity. The same holds true for the single pagan god called Chemosh: “Do you not possess what Chemosh your god [elohim] gives you to possess?" (Jud. 11:24). The same for the single deity called Baal.

The Hebrew language has many examples of words which are plural but whose meaning is singular. In Genesis 23, Abraham's wife Sarah dies. The Hebrew text says, "the lives [plural] of Sarah were 127 years" (v. 1). Even the plural verb that accompanies the pronoun does not mean Sarah lived multiple lives. The Hebrews never taught reincarnation or plurality of personhood. Another example of this kind of anomaly in the Hebrew language is found in Genesis 43. After Joseph wept to see his brothers, we read that Joseph "washed his faces" (plural). This is another instance where in the Hebrew language the plural noun functions as a singular noun with a singular meaning, unless, of course, Joseph was a multi-faced human being! The same occurs in Genesis 16:8 where Hagar flees from "the faces" (plural) of her mistress Sarah. These are "anomalies" of the Hebrew language that are clearly understood by Hebrew scholars who rightly translate to a singular form in English.

The better explanation is that the Hebrews used a form of speech called "the plural of majesty." Put simply this means that someone whose position was warrant of dignity was spoken in this way as giving a sign of honor. The plural acted as a means of intensification:

Elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty.

Whenever the word elohim refers to the God of Israel the Septuagint uses the singular and not the plural. From Genesis 1:1 consistently right through, this holds true. The Hebrews who translated their own scriptures into Greek simply had no idea that their God could be more than one individual, or a multiple personal Being! This is true too when we come to the New Testament. The New Testament nowhere hints at a plurality in the meaning of elohim when it reproduces references to the One God as ho theos, the One God.

You have no idea of the culture you speak... You think every belief revolves around you and your liberal American culture...

Paul

 

[MatthewG]

Hello to you,

there was one day I decided to do a study on the subject of who is the word of life? Who is Word of God? Who is Jesus Christ?

I don’t believe in the trinity you won’t hear me explain it in the traditional sense but I will be using scripture to support scripture in what is presented.

I use to believe in the trinity now I do not and the Bible helped me see just a little bit more about how God is not three persons in one… I use to go along with the crowd just to fit in… the one day someone presented something against the trinity and it opened my eyes to trust scripture and seek for God in spirit and truth in that regard to know Him and his Son better.

Overall I will point out the scriptures also pertaining to how Jesus is also known as the Lord God Almighty.

 

[Pierac]

34,000 trinity religions Why? Is the holy spirit confused or errors in translating and a lack of holy spirit? Do not forget--A house divided will not stand.

Thank you for making a serious point! Why are they 34,000 trinity religions? All whom claim they are the only way to God! Can you not see.... You all have agreed on nothing but what Satan has put into your teachings! Then you have 34,000 trinity religions claiming to be the only way! Yet, Jesus said... I'm the truth and the way...

So what did Jesus teach about your 34,000 trinity religions?
Joh 8:40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me , a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

The Point is ALL 34,000 trinity religions... Reject what Jesus said in john 8:40
Wow... Blind as blind can you be!!
Paul

 

[Pierac]

Hello to you,

there was one day I decided to do a study on the subject of who is the word of life? Who is Word of God? Who is Jesus Christ?

I don’t believe in the trinity you won’t hear me explain it in the traditional sense but I will be using scripture to support scripture in what is presented.

I use to believe in the trinity now I do not and the Bible helped me see just a little bit more about how God is not three persons in one… I use to go along with the crowd just to fit in… the one day someone presented something against the trinity and it opened my eyes to trust scripture and seek for God in spirit and truth in that regard to know Him and his Son better.

Overall I will point out the scriptures also pertaining to how Jesus is also known as the Lord God Almighty.

I can do the same with Moses... What's your point?

Let's see....

Moses summons all of Israel and says to them, "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders" (v.2-3). Moses continues to recite for the people all that God has done for them. But notice that in verse 6, while still reciting all God's wonders, Moses suddenly changes to the first person and says, "You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am the LORD your God."

It is obvious that God himself is not personally speaking to the people. Moses is preaching. But Moses as the agent of God can speak as though he is the Lord himself.

God tells Moses he will make him “God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet” (Exodus 7:1).

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

" (John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.


Yet... Both Moses and Jesus have a God!!!
Do the Math Einstein.

 

[MatthewG]

To learn and grow.

In Christ,
Matthew Gallagher

 

[Pierac]

To learn and grow.

In Christ,
Matthew Gallagher

Amen... Just like Jesus...
Luk 2:40 The Child (Jesus) continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.

May we all do the same as Jesus...

Luk 2:52 And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

Do you know the source of Jesus' wisdom and stature?

Do You???
Paul