Christians are not sinners

[brightfame52]

There is always one or two Scriptures that ends all dispute of doctrine of God, and they are usually the most obvious ones staring us in the face:

Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners.

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

God's people are not sinners, and sinners are not God's people.

There are no Scriptures speaking of saved and redeemed sinners, but only of saved and redeemed saints in Christ Jesus.

Those falling all over themselves to call themselves sinners, in most humble fashion, never ever refer to themselves as saints.

How can them that say they are as depraved as any sinner in the world ever refer to themselves as the righteous?

They even accuse the chiefest of the apostles as claiming to have been the chiefest of sinners during His apostleship.

Paul was not the apostle of sinners, but rather was the apostle of the saints, questioning how any that are called to be saints, can possibly continue in sins in this present world.

Sinners say they can. God does not.

Christians are sinners saved by Grace. The blessing however is that a Christians sin isn't imputed/charged to them. All their sins have been charged to Christ and He satisfied God's law and justice for them.

 

[Wynona]

Maybe you should read Matthew 7:21-23

And glean what exactly?

 

[Wynona]

I appreciate the differences you make between different levels of faith but even someone faithful hence someone who cannot fall away from believing in God per your definition can still sin



Everybody sins unless they are one with God, that's the thing.



This is a very narrow understanding of sin. Sin can also be committed in thoughts and it takes being a saint not so sin in thoughts.



And rightly so since Jesus was very clear that all the law and the prophets derive from only two commandments: 1- love God; 2- love your neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40) and Jesus never said we should love the only God the Christian way.

I will add that all of you put way too much emphasis on the scriptures although Jesus was clear this is next to useless (Matthew 11:25; Luke 10:21) and, to become like children as per Jesus' view, what we need is spiritual practice. So the questions are not whether or not





(two false statements, by the way) but how much time we spend praying.

I will also add that most Christians think they aren't sinners, some of them even think they can ignore my inputs even though I tell them I met Jesus in Heaven and, twenty years later, he appeared to me and requested me to witness so, I'll be a little brutal, hoping this will wake up some of them: the mere way some of you always quote the same verses over and over while ignoring the verses that confront your beliefs is a sin and those words from Jesus apply to you:

"I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father" (John 8:38)

"Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God" (John 8:47)

Ah. So you're trying to say that those of a certain mindset about saints and sinners aren't saved and don't know the Lord. Me included.

While this is not what I like to hear, I sincerely hope you change your mind in accusing me. I have no desire to bicker and be your enemy.

May God bless you and encourage you always.

 

[robert derrick]

Maybe you should read Matthew 7:21-23

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If you want to include hypocrite 'Christians' in name only, then you have Christian sinners.

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him.

Nevertheless, Scripture never refers to Christians as sinners.

However, Scripture does command them known as Christian not to be found as sinners:

But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

It's not by mistake that sinners calling themselves Christians can't even understand the point made, that God does not call His Christians sinners.

And so, we must make difference:

There are God's Christians that He never calls sinners, and are not sinners of the world, and there are man's Christians that always call themselves sinners, because they ares till sinners of the world.

 

[robert derrick]

Ah. So you're trying to say that those of a certain mindset about saints and sinners aren't saved and don't know the Lord. Me included.

While this is not what I like to hear, I sincerely hope you change your mind in accusing me. I have no desire to bicker and be your enemy.

May God bless you and encourage you always.

So long as we keep our mindset on Scripture, then our minds will remain clear and free of all folly and unrighteousness.

Keep up the good work sister.

 

[Johann]

Christians are sinners saved by Grace. The blessing however is that a Christians sin isn't imputed/charged to them. All their sins have been charged to Christ and He satisfied God's law and justice for them.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

 

[robert derrick]

I appreciate the differences you make between different levels of faith but even someone faithful hence someone who cannot fall away from believing in God per your definition can still sin



Everybody sins unless they are one with God, that's the thing.



This is a very narrow understanding of sin. Sin can also be committed in thoughts and it takes being a saint not so sin in thoughts.



And rightly so since Jesus was very clear that all the law and the prophets derive from only two commandments: 1- love God; 2- love your neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40) and Jesus never said we should love the only God the Christian way.

I will add that all of you put way too much emphasis on the scriptures although Jesus was clear this is next to useless (Matthew 11:25; Luke 10:21) and, to become like children as per Jesus' view, what we need is spiritual practice. So the questions are not whether or not





(two false statements, by the way) but how much time we spend praying.

I will also add that most Christians think they aren't sinners, some of them even think they can ignore my inputs even though I tell them I met Jesus in Heaven and, twenty years later, he appeared to me and requested me to witness so, I'll be a little brutal, hoping this will wake up some of them: the mere way some of you always quote the same verses over and over while ignoring the verses that confront your beliefs is a sin and those words from Jesus apply to you:

"I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father" (John 8:38)

"Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God" (John 8:47)

even someone faithful hence someone who cannot fall away from believing in God per your definition can still sin.

And yet Scripture says cannot sin. No man can sin and be justified with God.

Falling away from believing God is by falling away from obeying Him.

We can only obey God by believing Him, and there is no believing Him without obeying Him.

Which begins within the heart, as you point out:

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Everybody sins unless they are one with God, that's the thing.

True:

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.

The glory given them that receive Him within the heart, is the power of God to obey Him with all the heart and become His sons in deed and in truth, even as the Son is on earth:

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

And rightly so since Jesus was very clear that all the law and the prophets derive from only two commandments: 1- love God.

That would be love God with all the heart. Many naming the name of Christ think they love God, but only the few ensure they do so by obeying His commandment as written.

I will add that all of you put way too much emphasis on the scriptures although Jesus was clear this is next to useless (Matthew 11:25; Luke 10:21) and, to become like children as per Jesus' view, what we need is spiritual practice.

No doubt you are warning against the letter that kills, but you have misstated it. There can't be too much 'emphasis' on Scripture itself, since much of the church is weak and sick with sin, by not having enough emphasis on Scripture:

My heart standeth in awe of thy word.

I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

The little children beloved of the Lord are all them that come to Him and His Scripture as a little child at all times, without the learned folly and guile of 'adults' in the faith. When our most cherished imaginations can be corrected by simple reading of Scripture, then we can be corrected in all manner of living as good sons of God.

(two false statements, by the way)

When you show by Scripture how, then I'll take a look at it. Until then, I'll keep them.

I will also add that most Christians think they aren't sinners.

What we think has nothing to do with it, but rather judging rightly according to Scripture:

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

the mere way some of you always quote the same verses over and over while ignoring the verses that confront your beliefs is a sin and those words from Jesus apply to you.

True. Quote Scriptures to OSAS about purifying our hearts and doing His righteousness at all times on earth, and they always revert to their standard twisting of certain Scriptures, that they think saves them unconditionally.

 

[robert derrick]

Christians are sinners saved by Grace. The blessing however is that a Christians sin isn't imputed/charged to them. All their sins have been charged to Christ and He satisfied God's law and justice for them.

Christians are sinners saved by Grace.

Sinners become Christians saved by grace, when they repent and believe God within the heart to obey Him with a pure heart.

 

[robert derrick]

Christians are sinners saved by Grace. The blessing however is that a Christians sin isn't imputed/charged to them. All their sins have been charged to Christ and He satisfied God's law and justice for them.

The blessing however is that a Christians sin isn't imputed/charged to them.

The curse is calling God an unjust judge, who judges one soul for sin but not another for the same sin. Such unrighteous judges are rightly called hypocrites.

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie.

Hypocrites can try telling that lie to God, when He judges them for their ongoing sins:

The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

God is a righteous and just judge, that judges His people more guilty than sinners of the world:

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

 

[robert derrick]

Christians are sinners saved by Grace. The blessing however is that a Christians sin isn't imputed/charged to them. All their sins have been charged to Christ and He satisfied God's law and justice for them.

All their sins have been charged to Christ.

Jesus was never 'charged' with anything, much less with sin. He suffered death for the sins of the world, but He was never 'judged guilty' of them. He suffered the curse of death for our sins, but was not judged for any sin.

That is why His soul could not be held by death, because He was never judged worthy of death by sin.

OSAS is the hypocrite's doctrine of respect of persons in judgment, created by the god of this world, who himself is not a respecter of persons, but will gladly lie to and deceive any soul he can unto their own destruction:

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[Johann]

Christians are sinners saved by Grace.

Sinners become Christians saved by grace, when they repent and believe God within the heart to obey Him with a pure heart.

...who still have the sinful nature in them and is not surgically removed as most advocate
Blessings
J.

 

[robert derrick]

...who still have the sinful nature in them and is not surgically removed as most advocate
Blessings
J.

who still have the sinful nature in them and is not surgically removed as most advocate

Which is how you will remain unto death, since Scripture cannot correct you.

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Saints have the old man of sin crucified surgically by obeying the great Physician.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently.

Dual nature theology is a lie to justify the double minded to stay that way.

The problem is reading the truth of Scripture, but not believing it as commandment of God to obey.

 

[Titus]

...who still have the sinful nature in them and is not surgically removed as most advocate
Blessings
J.

After salvation one still has their freewill. Therefore it is not a sinful nature. Mankind by nature are not innate wicked immoral reprobates. It is our freewill that gives us the ability to give into temptation and commit sin. Whether lost or saved.
Ecclesiastes 7:29
Truly, this only I have found: That God made man upright, But they have sought out many schemes.

 

[Johann]

who still have the sinful nature in them and is not surgically removed as most advocate

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Sinners such as yourself still have the sin nature in them, even as you say for yourself.

Saints have the old man of sin crucified surgically by obeying the great Physician.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently.

Dual nature theology is a lying justification for them with double hearts and minds.

Their problem is they read the truth of Scripture, but don't believe it as commandment of God to obey.

...and most are quoting scripture to show are "spiritual" they are yet void of the Holy Spirit. You sinless?

 

[Johann]

After salvation one still has their freewill. Therefore it is not a sinful nature. Mankind by nature are not innate wicked immoral reprobates. It is our freewill that gives us the ability to give into temptation and commit sin. Whether lost or saved.
Ecclesiastes 7:29
Truly, this only I have found: That God made man upright, But they have sought out many schemes.

...and I am being bombarded for teaching false doctrine!?
There's no "free will" Titus.....
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
What is hamartia?

1) "If we say that we have not sinned". John offers a supposition, a hypothetical suggestion, that if he and other early apostles and disciples should say that they had not sinned, such a claim would be untrue, out of the realm of revealed and experimental truth, 1Ki_8:46; Ecc_7:20; Rom_3:23. Concerning such a claim one does not tell the truth. Not so?

2) "We make him a liar." We, in disclaiming acts of personal sin, would make God to be, or appear to be a liar, prevaricator, falsifier. Yet, Rom_3:4 reads, "Let God be true (found true) but every man a Iiar." Joh_3:33 asserts that "God is true".

3) "And his word is not in us". (Greek Kai ho logos autou ouk estin en hemin) means "His reasoning (Word) is not in us" as we make such lying claims. Every child of God does sin, needs to confess his sins daily Mat_6:12. His Word is true "from the beginning", and He "cannot lie". Ps 119-160; Heb_6:18.

Blessings
Johann

 

[Johann]

...and I am being bombarded for teaching false doctrine!?
There's no "free will" Titus.....
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
What is hamartia?

1) "If we say that we have not sinned". John offers a supposition, a hypothetical suggestion, that if he and other early apostles and disciples should say that they had not sinned, such a claim would be untrue, out of the realm of revealed and experimental truth, 1Ki_8:46; Ecc_7:20; Rom_3:23. Concerning such a claim one does not tell the truth. Not so?

2) "We make him a liar." We, in disclaiming acts of personal sin, would make God to be, or appear to be a liar, prevaricator, falsifier. Yet, Rom_3:4 reads, "Let God be true (found true) but every man a Iiar." Joh_3:33 asserts that "God is true".

3) "And his word is not in us". (Greek Kai ho logos autou ouk estin en hemin) means "His reasoning (Word) is not in us" as we make such lying claims. Every child of God does sin, needs to confess his sins daily Mat_6:12. His Word is true "from the beginning", and He "cannot lie". Ps 119-160; Heb_6:18.

Blessings
Johann

Read/study Rom 6,7 and 8
The heart is DESPERATELY wicked..
Read Pilgrims Progress by Bunyan
Shalom
J.

 

[Johann]

...and I am being bombarded for teaching false doctrine!?
There's no "free will" Titus.....
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
What is hamartia?

1) "If we say that we have not sinned". John offers a supposition, a hypothetical suggestion, that if he and other early apostles and disciples should say that they had not sinned, such a claim would be untrue, out of the realm of revealed and experimental truth, 1Ki_8:46; Ecc_7:20; Rom_3:23. Concerning such a claim one does not tell the truth. Not so?

2) "We make him a liar." We, in disclaiming acts of personal sin, would make God to be, or appear to be a liar, prevaricator, falsifier. Yet, Rom_3:4 reads, "Let God be true (found true) but every man a Iiar." Joh_3:33 asserts that "God is true".

3) "And his word is not in us". (Greek Kai ho logos autou ouk estin en hemin) means "His reasoning (Word) is not in us" as we make such lying claims. Every child of God does sin, needs to confess his sins daily Mat_6:12. His Word is true "from the beginning", and He "cannot lie". Ps 119-160; Heb_6:18.

Blessings
Johann

@Ziggy what say you?

 

[Titus]

...and I am being bombarded for teaching false doctrine!?
There's no "free will" Titus.....
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
What is hamartia?

1) "If we say that we have not sinned". John offers a supposition, a hypothetical suggestion, that if he and other early apostles and disciples should say that they had not sinned, such a claim would be untrue, out of the realm of revealed and experimental truth, 1Ki_8:46; Ecc_7:20; Rom_3:23. Concerning such a claim one does not tell the truth. Not so?

2) "We make him a liar." We, in disclaiming acts of personal sin, would make God to be, or appear to be a liar, prevaricator, falsifier. Yet, Rom_3:4 reads, "Let God be true (found true) but every man a Iiar." Joh_3:33 asserts that "God is true".

3) "And his word is not in us". (Greek Kai ho logos autou ouk estin en hemin) means "His reasoning (Word) is not in us" as we make such lying claims. Every child of God does sin, needs to confess his sins daily Mat_6:12. His Word is true "from the beginning", and He "cannot lie". Ps 119-160; Heb_6:18.

Blessings
Johann

If no freewill then I am not guilty for my actions.
God's sovereign will determines my actions not myself.
Therefore God is guilty for my actions, I have no will of my own.

Listen to the wisest man that ever lived,
Truly, this only I have found: That God made man upright, But they have sought out many schemes

Solomon taught me ,man is created upright in the image of God.
Your interpretation of other verses must therefore be wrong. No contradictions in scripture friend.

 

[Ziggy]

@Ziggy what say you?

I can not will myself free from sin.
Meaning, I can not make myself sinless.
Freewill has to work both ways or it's not really free is it?
So we can say I have freewill to sin, and I have freewill not to sin.

But I don't believe this is true until we have been freed from it by Christ alone.

I here... Liberty..

To set at liberty those that are bruised...
bruised?

Bruise:
θραύω thraúō, throw'-o; a primary verb; to crush:—bruise
to break, break in pieces, shatter, smite through

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Lev 22:24 Ye shall not offer unto the LORD that which is bruised, or crushed, or broken, or cut; neither shall ye make any offering thereof in your land.

Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Mar 6:56 And whithersoever he entered, into villages, or cities, or country, they laid the sick in the streets, and besought him that they might touch if it were but the border of his garment: and as many as touched him were made whole.

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Lev 26:13 I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.

1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Exo 3:9 Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Heavy laden, yoke, bondage... all of these represent the burden of sin.

Before we come to Jesus and is freed from sin, there is no freewill. You are held captive, enslaved to it, sick.
But after Jesus frees us from sin, we then are given "Liberty" .

What is this liberty?

Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

what if one doesn't continue therein, is that freewill?
Do we have choice after we have been saved to return again to be yoked with sin?
Do we have choice after we have been saved to remain sinless?

What is sin?



long post, sorry, just rambling..
Hugs

 

[Titus]

The Bible does not teach we are born with a sinful nature.
If so, then babies are wholly, sinful, depraved, wicked reprobates.
In this state, if they die, they will die in their sins, forever lost.

David's baby did not have a sinful nature,

2Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

David did not believe his son was totally depraved sinful.
Those in heaven and those in hell cannot go to each other
David said he will go to his child. Where did David go when he died?

Ezekial 28:15
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.