John Calvin and Calvinism.

[Lifelong_sinner]

I have no problem with the term elect....but it applies to all Christians.



This implies choice and free-will



Again this implies choice and free-will.



Exactly Calvinist. You believe you are a puppet of the great puppet master.

twisted and more twisted. Romans 9 tells us exactly how God does things, and it says the exact opposite of what you say.
Pharoah was used by God to help send His name out into the world. Pharoah was predestined for hell, God hardened his heart. God took an evil man, pharoah, and used Him to show His glory. Now paul went on to say;
“It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?”

whatever God does is for His glory. If that means creating some destined for hell, so be it. Either way, we do NOT get to question what He does with us.
Romans 9 proves that the apostles taught what we call calvinism today. Romans 9 proves calvinism is Biblically correct.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Do you actually think, Gods word teaches us not to reason when studying the scriptures?

I know calvinist's refuse to use logic when they read the scriptures.

Youlove to make inane false accusations!

Divine logic yes. But mans logic or natural logic in spiritual matters makes the gospel foolish as Paul said! The cross is still crazy to even professed believers! That is why they came up with losing your salvation! Cuz they just can't stomach that they have nothing to do with getting or staying saved. Human pride is insidious!

To be a follower of John Calvin one must throw away logic and embrace insanity

Which is exactly what the religious crowd said about Jesus! He is mad and has a demon- why listen to Him!

Timothy teaches we must rightly divide the word of God.
This means there is a wrong way to divide the scriptures.
That wrong way is to interpret scriptures without using logic.
To come to conclusions that make no logical sense!
Like for instance, believing God has created some to be totally depraved wicked reprobates that cannot repent and turn to God. Yet God supposedly blames them for not repenting of their sins!
Absolute hog wash! Makes God out to be irrational.
Fact: John Calvin was irrational. He wrongly divided Gods word.

You come up with dime a dozen accusations against brethren. How about now trying to prove th eallegations above? That would be refreshing of you instead of you just bloviating how crazy.

It seems that Paul spoke strongly against human logic. The greeks were the epitome of human logic and He said the gospel is foolishness to human wisdom!

 

[PinSeeker]

Love the colored text...

Of course this topic has been covered in several threads so it just a reiteration of the facts.

That would actually be, in your case, a reiteration (possibly) of what you think the facts are.

Calvinism has come up with their own man-made terms that do not appear in the Bible.

And those would be...?

It all revolves around the belief that God is a puppet master and so whatever people do both good and bad is the will of God.

This is not John Calvin's teaching. It is a false perception of it, but not it at all... only a (very) false caricature of it, a total strawman setup. Thus, all of your resulting "reasoning" is false also:

"according to Calvinism people are forced to do the will of God and so sin would not exist..."
This is not according to Calvinism at all.

"according to Calvinism people do bad things under the control of God.
God does not direct those "bad things." The implication of this would be that God Himself is sinful, which is not true in any sense.

"And then they believe God punishes them for eternity for being under the control of God."
LOL! No.

"they depict God as Satan."
So, absolutely not.​

"According to Calvinism people do nothing by their own free-will."
Only a false perception...

"All actions predestined by God..."
No, Romans 8:29 speaks of those whom God predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, and Ephesians 1:5 speaks of the predestination of Christians to be adopted to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ. These are basically the same thing, and both far from predestining every action of every man or woman. Again, you're premise is totally wrong, and thus everything after follows suit.

"...so then whatever sin occurs is through the will of God.
Absolutely not. See above.

"If God forces people to sin through predestination, no sin can be attributed to man.
He doesn't. See above.

"Original Sin is not a biblical term."
No, the term itself is not, but the concept assuredly is. The sinful nature, inherited from Adam, our first father, because of His first sin, is absolutely Biblical. And this is what's meant by "Original Sin." It's just a heading, basically, that encapsulates a very Biblical concept.

"Predestination is a consistent teaching of Calvinism."
Well, it's a clear teaching of Paul in Romans and Ephesians, particularly, and Peter also, in his epistles. So ultimately, it's a teaching of God, because it's His Word we're talking about. So whether any "ism" endorses it or not is irrelevant, really, except that not endorsing it would be a problem for that "ism."

"If you have a different version of Calvinism where people have free-will and can make their own choices, let me know."
There was only one John Calvin, so there is only one true version of Calvinism. John Calvin never refuted, in any way, any man's ability to make choices, even free-will choices. The perception that he did is unequivocally false.

"The fact that Calvinists do not believe that people have free-will is a well established fact."
Not at all. See above. It's only a knee-jerk reaction due to a (well-established) false perception of the facts. The fact that some accept what you say as fact does not in any way make it a fact.

Again, foreknown is not predestination.
No, but His predestination of certain men/women to eternal life is based on His forknowing them.

"So God knows the future..."
Yes, in His position as the potentate of time, He is outside of our time. Our time is part of His creation. As "I AM," He is ever-present at ~ but not in ~ all of our time. But this is not what Paul is saying in his mention of God's foreknowing of certain individuals, and that's what I was getting at. If you want to discuss it, we can.

"That is the issue at hand...choice....free-will.
No, it's really not.

"Do people sin by their own choice and free-will?"
Yes.

"Or are they predestined to sin....in accordance with God's power to predestine. In other words sin driven by God's will."
No.

"The storyline of the Bible mostly shows God working with people to accomplish His will."
It shows God accomplishing His will through the actions ~ which undoubtedly were the result of choices, even free-will choices ~ of all people.

"So predestination exists, but it is not God controlling people all the time."
Agreed. Any John Calvin himself would have affirmed that, and any Calvinist worth his salt would, too.​

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Grailhunter]

Get wisdom, get understanding; do not forget my words or turn away from them. Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you;
love her, and she will watch over you. The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding.
8 Cherish her, and she will exalt you; embrace her, and she will honor you. She will give you a garland to grace your head and present you with a glorious crown.” Proverbs 4:5-9

twisted and more twisted. Romans 9 tells us exactly how God does things, and it says the exact opposite of what you say.

As a whole....the whole Bible is going to us how "God does things" Some people use the cherry picker approach to biblical knowledge.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?”

God has "the right" to do anything He wants. I am not saying that God does not have the power of predestination. But in taking into the context of the whole Bible....in belief, in faith, there is a whole lot of choosing and free-will. If not, people have no choice. If God forces people to sin, it is not their fault. The issue with Calvinism is the desire to blaspheme God.

This is nothing new, the Gnostic believed the God of the Old Testament was something between insane and evil. The Calvinists turn it around and say evil is of God. People are forced to sin and then punished for it. You call this glory! Forcing someone to do evil things is evil and punishing people for things that were not their choice is evil. Satan was given a quota of souls before creation? Was this an agreement between God and Satan?
It is no wonder they are so confused.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

People are forced to sin and then punished for it. You call this glory! Forcing someone to do evil things is evil and punishing people for things that were not their choice is evil.

was pharoah an evil man?
Did God harden his heart?
Did pharoah end up in hell?
Does romans say that we are not to question God for His purpose of us?
Was God wrong to send pharoah to hell even though God hardened his heart?

 

[Titus]

The Greeks believed in multipe gods when Paul reasoned with them.
More error on your part!
Think about what you just told me.
Paul was reasoning with who?
The greeks.
The Greeks were not guided by the Holy Spirit!
They did not have miraculous understanding coming directly from God.
Why then is Paul reasoning with them?
Paul reasoned with non-believers to get them to reason themselves.
That is the only way one comes to the truth.

Faith comes by hearing the gospel, Romans 10:17.
2Timothy 2:15 why must we work to rightly divide if God gives knowledge miraculously?
There would be no need to work at it. The apostles were given spiritual knowledge miraculously through the Holy Spirit.
THEY NEVER HAD TO STUDY! They never had to WORK, to know Gods truth!
Mankind does have to use the mind that God gave us, 2Timothy 2:15.

It seems that Paul spoke strongly against human logic. The greeks were the epitome of human logic and He said the gospel is foolishness to human wisdom!

The Greeks used the wisdom of the WORLD.
You are using a strawman argument against me!
I never said one uses the wisdom of the world to reason the scriptures.

I said reasoning is required when studying Gods word.
When a conclusion on any Bible subject does not make logical or rationale sense.
Like calvinism, it is error!

1Corinthians 1:22
For Jews request a sign and Greeks seek after wisdom(worldly wisdom).

To know Gods word one must seek after Gods wisdom.
To do so one must use logical reasoning when examining the scriptures.

Proverbs 2:1-6
-for the Lord gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

If calvinist's are correct, those not yet saved cannot understand Gods word.
Just the opposite is taught by God in His word.
The lost can understand with the mind God gave them.

Ephesians 3:4
Whereby when ye read, ye may understand My knowledge in the mystery of Christ.

God demands we understand His word. That includes all that God has given a mind that can comprehend His gospel,
Ephesians 5:17
Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

If the lost cannot understand the Bible, then God expects those who are lost to do the impossible!
Calvinism is illogical nonsense.

I'm sure you believe there are retarded people who are elected.
Do they miraculously understand the scriptures?
No, they do not.
I have a down syndrome Uncle who is in heaven.
He never could understand the gospel.
Calvinism teaches understanding is given miraculously to Gods elect.
Find a mentally retarded person , that will have understanding like you and I can.
You will never find one!
That's because Godly wisdom of His word is not given miraculously.
It is given through hard work, 2Timothy 2:15.

"To be a follower of John Calvin one must throw away logic and embrace insanity"

Which is exactly what the religious crowd said about Jesus! He is mad and has a demon- why listen to Him!

Big difference between Jesus and John Calvin Sir.
Jesus was not illogical, He was mentally sound.
John Calvin was illogical.

Jesus always silenced anyone who challenged His wisdom.
John Calvin had no Godly wisdom. He was literally unstable in his thinking.

It seems that Paul spoke strongly against human logic. The greeks were the epitome of human logic and He said the gospel is foolishness to human wisdom!

I'm not endorsing human wisdom!
I'm endorsing Godly wisdom!
How do we get Godly wisdom?

Is it miraculously given before we hear the gospel like the calvinist's teach?

Or does it come by hearing the wisdom of God taught to us, then with the mind God gave us we reason whether it be true or false.

Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

How does the Bible say we can come to know the wisdom of God?
Without using logic as the calvinist teach?

Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher?

No need of preachers to teach us Gods wisdom if we do not have the ability to reason/understand it.
No need for a preacher, if God directly gives you His wisdom through a miracle, as the calvinist teach.

Calvinism is unbiblical, irrational wisdom of men, not the wisdom of God.

 

[Grailhunter]

Calvinism has come up with their own man-made terms that do not appear in the Bible.

And those would be...?

I think you know these....total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, or hype grace, and perseverance of the saints.

It all revolves around the belief that God is a puppet master and so whatever people do both good and bad is the will of God.

This is not John Calvin's teaching. It is a false perception of it, but not it at all... only a (very) false caricature of it, a total strawman setup. Thus, all of your resulting "reasoning" is false also:

No I am spot on. But I have a sense of humor. So tell me how predestination allows for people to choose to do good or bad. I want Calvinist documentation of this belief.

"according to Calvinism people do bad things under the control of God.

God does not direct those "bad things." The implication of this would be that God Himself is sinful, which is not true in any sense.

So are you saying people have the free-will to choose to do bad things or not to do bad thing? And it is the Calvinist implication that God is evil. I believe we have the free-will to choose Christ, the free-will to do bad things, the free-will to do good things.

"they depict God as Satan."
So, absolutely not.
What is the difference. LOL The difference, I believe that Satan tempts people and they have the free-will to choose to sin or not.
In Calvinism they are predestined by God to sin and be punished for it....which is worse?

"According to Calvinism people do nothing by their own free-will."
Only a false perception...
Prove me wrong....Tell us about the Calvinist doctrines of people having free-will and choose.

"All actions predestined by God..."
No, Romans 8:29 speaks of those whom God predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, and Ephesians 1:5 speaks of the predestination of Christians to be adopted to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ. These are basically the same thing, and both far from predestining every action of every man or woman. Again, you're premise is totally wrong, and thus everything after follows suit.

Again, prove me wrong. Tell us the doctrines of Calvinism that says people have free-will of choice to believe and or sin. And that God did not choose who would be damned before creation.

"...so then whatever sin occurs is through the will of God.
Absolutely not. See above.

Well see above too. Show me again were Calvinism believes that people have the free-will to make choices. A doctrine in writing that they believe people have the free-will to make any choice about anything.

"Original Sin is not a biblical term."
No, the term itself is not, but the concept assuredly is. The sinful nature, inherited from Adam, our first father, because of His first sin, is absolutely Biblical. And this is what's meant by "Original Sin." It's just a heading, basically, that encapsulates a very Biblical concept.

No it is not in the Bible. Look up the full definition of Original Sin and we can talk about it.

"Predestination is a consistent teaching of Calvinism."
Well, it's a clear teaching of Paul in Romans and Ephesians, particularly, and Peter also, in his epistles. So ultimately, it's a teaching of God, because it's His Word we're talking about. So whether any "ism" endorses it or not is irrelevant, really, except that not endorsing it would be a problem for that "ism."

Paul was not a Calvinist....if so there would have been no reason for the teaching of John Calvin. Paul talked about predestination but not as all of reality was predestined.

"If you have a different version of Calvinism where people have free-will and can make their own choices, let me know."

****************************The prove it section***********************************************

There was only one John Calvin, so there is only one true version of Calvinism. John Calvin never refuted, in any way, any man's ability to make choices, even free-will choices. The perception that he did is unequivocally false.

Again, show me were Calvinism believes in free-will and choices. But I am sure that you that Calvinism has had some revisions....reformed.

"The fact that Calvinists do not believe that people have free-will is a well established fact."
Not at all. See above. It's only a knee-jerk reaction due to a (well-established) false perception of the facts. The fact that some accept what you say as fact does not in any way make it a fact.

"Do people sin by their own choice and free-will?"
Yes.

"Or are they predestined to sin....in accordance with God's power to predestine. In other words sin driven by God's will."
No.


Again, foreknown is not predestination.
No, but His predestination of certain men/women to eternal life is based on His forknowing them.

LOL Reminds me of Monopoly! Are you going straight to heaven. Bypassing judgement day....Do you have scriptures about people by passing judgment day.

"So God knows the future..."
Yes, in His position as the potentate of time, He is outside of our time. Our time is part of His creation. As "I AM," He is ever-present at ~ but not in ~ all of our time. But this is not what Paul is saying in his mention of God's foreknowing of certain individuals, and that's what I was getting at. If you want to discuss it, we can.

Again foreknowing is not the definition of predestination.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Calvinism has come up with their own man-made terms that do not appear in the Bible.

And those would be...?

I think you know these....total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, or hype grace, and perseverance of the saints.

It all revolves around the belief that God is a puppet master and so whatever people do both good and bad is the will of God.

This is not John Calvin's teaching. It is a false perception of it, but not it at all... only a (very) false caricature of it, a total strawman setup. Thus, all of your resulting "reasoning" is false also:

No I am spot on. But I have a sense of humor. So tell me how predestination allows for people to choose to do good or bad. I want Calvinist documentation of this belief.

"according to Calvinism people do bad things under the control of God.

God does not direct those "bad things." The implication of this would be that God Himself is sinful, which is not true in any sense.

So are you saying people have the free-will to choose to do bad things or not to do bad thing? And it is the Calvinist implication that God is evil. I believe we have the free-will to choose Christ, the free-will to do bad things, the free-will to do good things.

"they depict God as Satan."
So, absolutely not.
What is the difference. LOL The difference, I believe that Satan tempts people and they have the free-will to choose to sin or not.
In Calvinism they are predestined by God to sin and be punished for it....which is worse?

"According to Calvinism people do nothing by their own free-will."
Only a false perception...
Prove me wrong....Tell us about the Calvinist doctrines of people having free-will and choose.

"All actions predestined by God..."
No, Romans 8:29 speaks of those whom God predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, and Ephesians 1:5 speaks of the predestination of Christians to be adopted to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ. These are basically the same thing, and both far from predestining every action of every man or woman. Again, you're premise is totally wrong, and thus everything after follows suit.

Again, prove me wrong. Tell us the doctrines of Calvinism that says people have free-will of choice to believe and or sin. And that God did not choose who would be damned before creation.

"...so then whatever sin occurs is through the will of God.
Absolutely not. See above.

Well see above too. Show me again were Calvinism believes that people have the free-will to make choices. A doctrine in writing that they believe people have the free-will to make any choice about anything.

"Original Sin is not a biblical term."
No, the term itself is not, but the concept assuredly is. The sinful nature, inherited from Adam, our first father, because of His first sin, is absolutely Biblical. And this is what's meant by "Original Sin." It's just a heading, basically, that encapsulates a very Biblical concept.

No it is not in the Bible. Look up the full definition of Original Sin and we can talk about it.

"Predestination is a consistent teaching of Calvinism."
Well, it's a clear teaching of Paul in Romans and Ephesians, particularly, and Peter also, in his epistles. So ultimately, it's a teaching of God, because it's His Word we're talking about. So whether any "ism" endorses it or not is irrelevant, really, except that not endorsing it would be a problem for that "ism."

Paul was not a Calvinist....if so there would have been no reason for the teaching of John Calvin. Paul talked about predestination but not as all of reality was predestined.

"If you have a different version of Calvinism where people have free-will and can make their own choices, let me know."

****************************The prove it section***********************************************

There was only one John Calvin, so there is only one true version of Calvinism. John Calvin never refuted, in any way, any man's ability to make choices, even free-will choices. The perception that he did is unequivocally false.

Again, show me were Calvinism believes in free-will and choices. But I am sure that you that Calvinism has had some revisions....reformed.

"The fact that Calvinists do not believe that people have free-will is a well established fact."
Not at all. See above. It's only a knee-jerk reaction due to a (well-established) false perception of the facts. The fact that some accept what you say as fact does not in any way make it a fact.

"Do people sin by their own choice and free-will?"
Yes.

"Or are they predestined to sin....in accordance with God's power to predestine. In other words sin driven by God's will."
No.


Again, foreknown is not predestination.
No, but His predestination of certain men/women to eternal life is based on His forknowing them.

LOL Reminds me of Monopoly! Are you going straight to heaven. Bypassing judgement day....Do you have scriptures about people by passing judgment day.

"So God knows the future..."
Yes, in His position as the potentate of time, He is outside of our time. Our time is part of His creation. As "I AM," He is ever-present at ~ but not in ~ all of our time. But this is not what Paul is saying in his mention of God's foreknowing of certain individuals, and that's what I was getting at. If you want to discuss it, we can.

Again foreknowing is not the definition of predestination.

calvin didnt create anything, he merely gave his support to what the apostles said. There is NO difference between the apostles writings and calvins writings. Calvin merely showed his agreement with what the Bible says. And calvin never called his 5 points, calvinism. That would be you arminians that did that.

 

[Grailhunter]

was pharoah an evil man?
Did God harden his heart?
Did pharoah end up in hell?
Does romans say that we are not to question God for His purpose of us?
Was God wrong to send pharoah to hell even though God hardened his heart?

This goes back to the scripture regarding God making people for a purpose and it is a good example of predestination or God causing people to do things.

But I am talking about humanity. The Pharaoh was pagan so He was going to hell anyway, so it does not matter.

 

[Grailhunter]

calvin didnt create anything, he merely gave his support to what the apostles said.

No he did not create the earth. But he did write about things that others did not agree with, and they supported what Apostles said too.

There is NO difference between the apostles writings and calvins writings.

What the Apostles wrote were scriptures....John Calvin did not write scriptures.

Calvin merely showed his agreement with what the Bible says.

John Calvin cherry picked His beliefs out of the scriptures and thereby twisted the Word of God.

And calvin never called his 5 points, calvinism.

Did He say they were Voodoo? Because they are not biblical.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

This goes back to the scripture regarding God making people for a purpose and it is a good example of predestination or God causing people to do things.

But I am talking about humanity. The Pharaoh was pagan so He was going to hell anyway, so it does not matter.

wait…so when the Bible says that God hardened pharoahs heart, you still believe that pharoah’s free will could undo God’s hardening of his heart?
Pharoah was literally created so that God’s name would be known by the world, and was predestined to goto hell. Pharoah had ZERO say or ability to change his final destination. It is the same today in our time, if God predestined someone to hell, there is nothing that person can do to avoid hell. I fail to see how you still believe our free will can override God’s plan for us. How does that work? Clearly you dont believe in God’s sovereignty, you seem to suggest that man’s sovereignty is highest.

 

[Grailhunter]

wait…so when the Bible says that God hardened pharoahs heart, you still believe that pharoah’s free will could undo God’s hardening of his heart?

No...if you go back to post 629 you will see that I said it was a good example of predestination.

It is the same today in our time, if God predestined someone to hell, there is nothing that person can do to avoid hell.

I don't see an example in the Bible where God singled out an individual and damned Him or predestined a man to hell. But I think He could.

I fail to see how you still believe our free will can override God’s plan for us.

That is because you see the plan as a puppet show. God's plan for us is salvation through Christ....Ya know the whole God so loved the world thing. That is why the original name for those that followed Christ was called the Way. So Christ and the Apostles taught the Way so people could choose to believe of their own free-will and accord. God so loved the world....not God enslaved the world.

Clearly you dont believe in God’s sovereignty, you seem to suggest that man’s sovereignty is highest.
I do believe in God's sovereignty....He just chose not to be a monstrous puppet master. The character of God is love and mercy, not enslavement of humanity. This is the worst sin of Calvinism, the defamation of God's Character.

Now all things in perspective.....Although Calvinism is an evil belief, that does not mean the people....the Calvinists themselves are evil. I know a lot of good Calvinists. Of course when they are standing before Christ and explaining why they believe God denied them free will and He enslaved humanity....they may have some stressful moments...still wish them the best. I would not want to see Satan capitalizing on the fact that they were hoodwinked.

 

[PinSeeker]

Calvinism has come up with their own man-made terms that do not appear in the Bible. I think you know these....total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints.

The concepts and the biblical truths summarized by each of those five very far-reaching concepts are incontrovertible. There are not really a mere "five points" to Calvinism at all; Calvin put them forth only in response to the erroneous five concepts that Jacobus Arminius propagated for corrective purposes.

GH: It all revolves around the belief that God is a puppet master and so whatever people do both good and bad is the will of God.
PS: This is not John Calvin's teaching. It is a false perception of it, but not it at all... only a (very) false caricature of it, a total strawman setup. Thus, all of your resulting "reasoning" is false also:​

No I am spot on.

I very much aware that you think you are, but that's not the case at all.

...tell me how predestination allows for people to choose to do good or bad.

In no way does Biblical predestination inhibit personal choice, much less preclude it. John Calvin wrote nothing saying or even insinuating that human beings do not make a free-will choice.

GH: "according to Calvinism people do bad things under the control of God.
PS: God does not direct those "bad things." The implication of this would be that God Himself is sinful, which is not true in any sense.​

So are you saying people have the free-will to choose to do bad things or not to do bad thing?

Wouldn't be perfectly ridiculous to say they don't?

And it is the Calvinist implication that God is evil.

Not in any way, shape, form, or fashion. I get why people want to foist that on Calvin and Calvinists, but no.

I believe we have the free-will to choose Christ, the free-will to do bad things, the free-will to do good things.

I do, too. And Calvin did, too. And Calvinists like me, who understand Calvin as I do. And millions upon millions of other folks, too.

GH: "they depict God as Satan."
PS: No, absolutely not.​

What is the difference. LOL The difference, I believe that Satan tempts people and they have the free-will to choose to sin or not.
In Calvinism they are predestined by God to sin and be punished for it.

I'm tracking right with you, as any good Calvinist would, that Satan tempts people and they have the free-will to choose to sin or not. Absolutely. But it is not true, again, in any way, shape, form, or fashion, that Calvinists believe people are predestined by God to sin.

GH: "According to Calvinism people do nothing by their own free-will."
PS: Only a false perception...​

Prove me wrong....Tell us about the Calvinist doctrines of people having free-will and choose.

Calvinist doctrine or not, it's perfectly ridiculous, as I said above, to think people don't make free-will choices. And Calvin would have said that, too, if there had been any ridiculous claim made to the contrary. Everyone gets exactly what he or she chooses with regard to God's salvation. Or most anything else; I mean, just generally speaking, we don't all get what we choose all the time, right?

"All actions predestined by God..."

No, Romans 8:29 speaks of those whom God predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, and Ephesians 1:5 speaks of the predestination of Christians to be adopted to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ. These are basically the same thing, and both far from predestining every action of every man or woman. Again, you're premise is totally wrong, and thus everything after follows suit.

Again, prove me wrong. Tell us the doctrines of Calvinism that says people have free-will of choice to believe and or sin.

I did. In no way, and no where, and at no time, did Calvin ever say or write that people do not make free-will choices to believe or to sin or not sin. And Calvinists ~ I know, because I am one, through and through ~ do not make any such claim.

And that God did not choose who would be damned before creation.

He chose who He would have mercy and compassion on. He did not actively choose people to be damned at any time, much less before creation.

Show me again were Calvinism believes that people have the free-will to make choices. A doctrine in writing that they believe people have the free-will to make any choice about anything.

You're the one making the accusation. That means you are the one with the burden of proof; you have to prove that Calvinists believe people do not have and are unable to make free-will choices regarding anything, even salvation. All that is really required (in some sense) of me is to assert that Calvin never said or wrote anything insinuating people do not freely make choices (he didn't) and that Calvinists don't make any claim along those lines (and they don't).

Continued:

 

[PinSeeker]

"Original Sin is not a biblical term."

No, the term itself is not, but the concept assuredly is. The sinful nature, inherited from Adam, our first father, because of His first sin, is absolutely Biblical. And this is what's meant by "Original Sin." It's just a heading, basically, that encapsulates a very Biblical concept.

No it is not in the Bible. Look up the full definition of Original Sin and we can talk about it.

LOL! Again, the term itself is not, but the concept assuredly is. Maybe ~ and I'm pretty sure this is true ~ the problem is your definition of Original Sin. Tell me what your definition of Original Sin is. If it's a caricature of it ~ and again, I'm pretty sure it is, judging (GASP! "judging"! Oh, my! ) from your caricatures of several other things during the course of this conversation, including Calvinism generally ~ then it's not really worth discussing, but only correcting.

Paul was not a Calvinist...

LOL! Well, considering that Calvin was born more than a millennium after Paul, I agree. LOL!

Paul talked about predestination but not as all of reality was predestined.

Well, right, but neither did John Calvin (1500 years later).

Again foreknowing is not the definition of predestination.

Right. I'm not sure why in the world you felt like you had to tell me that. Especially since that's pretty much exactly what I said previously.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Titus]

In no way does Biblical predestination inhibit personal choice, much less preclude it. John Calvin wrote nothing saying or even insinuating that human beings do not make a free-will choice

Total depravity will not allow a totally depraved wicked reprobate to choose God, Pinseeker!
You are changing the teachings of John Calvin.
Explain how a born depraved sinner can choose to do Gods will?
But then again, Calvin contradicted himself, so it's up to how you use his words to win your arguments.

Ask your calvinist friend Lifelongsinner if he can choose to become a saved, regenerated, born again Christian.
He will tell the truth!
Lifelong sinner knows it is Gods choice for him to be saved.
Lifelong sinner has no choice to be the elect. That's why Lifelong sinner believes He is going to hell, because God has not chosen him!

Explain your double talk, Pinseeker

 

[Grailhunter]

@PinSeeker @Lifelong_sinner

Ok, guys, find your source material.
I say that some Calvinists believe that all of reality is predestined. That down do every snowflake that falls is predestined. That every every thing we do, thought we have, every word we utter is predestined and we have no control of it. Predestination and double predestination. Now not all Calvinist believe that but it is somewhere in between.

Go to your source material, the writings of John Calvin, the Westminster Confession of Faith, 1646. Look in there and see if it preaches free-will and choice at any level. Find out where TULIP came from.

Now a far as Original Sin LOL....That comes from the Catholic theologian Augustine. A depraved man by his own admission. Completely out of control. Because he could not control himself, he thought nobody could control themselves. Read his writings.

Babies are not born in sin and they do not go to hell if they die. And yes , as adults we can be good and do good by choice. But you cannot be biblically moral unless you know the Bible. But as people, as Christians we are not dirty rags of sin, we are the children of God and can choose to be good...we are not deprived.

 

[PinSeeker]

Total depravity will not allow a totally depraved wicked reprobate to choose God, Pinseeker!

That's kind of a clumsy way of stating it, but I'll allow it. No, I'm not "changing Calvin's teachings." Read on:

Explain how a born depraved sinner can choose to do Gods will?

This is really a different question altogether, Titus. Even depraved sinners choose to do things that are within God's will, at least from time to time. Surely you know what they say about blind squirrels... But they do not make these choices because they are God's will, or to serve Him, but only because he or she deems it necessary in and of himself (for selfish reasons and purposes). You believe Romans 8:28, don't you? Well, maybe or maybe not; anyway, God works all things together ~ all things, so even the sinful choices that people make and sinful things they do ~ for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

Now, regarding salvation specifically ~ believing in and accepting Jesus Christ as Savior and repenting of sin ~ a totally depraved wicked reprobate" can choose God, but will not, because of his nature being of the state that it is; he is wholly inclined not to choose that and to do otherwise, and thus, like I said, will not. He will always choose otherwise, because he or she is dead in his sin and thus a slave to unrighteousness.

But then again, Calvin contradicted himself...

Well, no, he didn't. At least not on the things we are discussing. As I told GrailHunter, that's really just a false impression.

Explain your double talk, Pinseeker

Another false perception.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

@PinSeeker @Lifelong_sinner

Ok, guys, find your source material.
I say that some Calvinists believe that all of reality is predestined. That down do every snowflake that falls is predestined. That every every thing we do, thought we have, every word we utter is predestined and we have no control of it. Predestination and double predestination. Now not all Calvinist believe that but it is somewhere in between.

Go to your source material, the writings of John Calvin, the Westminster Confession of Faith, 1646. Look in there and see if it preaches free-will and choice at any level. Find out where TULIP came from.

Now a far as Original Sin LOL....That comes from the Catholic theologian Augustine. A depraved man by his own admission. Completely out of control. Because he could not control himself, he thought nobody could control themselves. Read his writings.

Babies are not born in sin and they do not go to hell if they die. And yes , as adults we can be good and do good by choice. But you cannot be biblically moral unless you know the Bible. But as people, as Christians we are not dirty rags of sin, we are the children of God and can choose to be good...we are not deprived.

you would do well to read the WCF yourself. I feel like 80% of questions asked on this forum could be answered just by reading them. My preacher likes to use the WCF in his sermons. Heres a link for you.
Confession of Faith: The Orthodox Presbyterian Church

 

[PinSeeker]

Ok, guys, find your source material.

Not necessary; I'm very familiar with it.

I say that some Calvinists believe that all of reality is predestined. That down do every snowflake that falls is predestined. That every every thing we do, thought we have, every word we utter is predestined and we have no control of it.

Well now those folks would indeed claim to be Calvinists, but really think along the lines of Hyper-Calvinism, which is not really Calvinism at all but an inadvertent twisting of it.

Predestination and double predestination.

Ah, double predestination. Supralapsarianism. The fact is, Grailhunter, regardless how we characterize it or what label we put on it, God predestines some ~ not all, but some ~ to be conformed to the image of His Son, to eternal life. So we can say that by exclusion ~ not directly but indirectly; by exclusion ~ the ones not predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ are sealed to their fate. But God does not predestine that. The Bible doesn't say that He does, and Calvin didn't say He does. You may call that "doublespeak," and if so... LOL!... so be it.

Find out where TULIP came from.

I just told you "where it came from." Calvin had his theology, and Arminius tried to refute it, propagating five points which he thought to be true but were in fact false. Calvin debunked those five points systematically. But Arminianism lives on, unfortunately. This was basically the disagreement between Augustine and Pelagius centuries before. And the debate will continue ~ again, unfortunately ~ until Jesus returns.

Now a far as Original Sin LOL....That comes from the Catholic theologian Augustine. A depraved man by his own admission.

All men (and women) are depraved, and in need of Christ and salvation.

Completely out of control. Because he could not control himself, he thought nobody could control themselves. Read his writings.

You're completely mischaracterizing what he meant by "controlling oneself."

Babies are not born in sin and they do not go to hell if they die.

Well, even David, the man after God's own heart, acknowledged that he was born in sin, sinful even from his mother's womb. Likewise, we all are. As for whether babies go to hell if they die, it depends on whether God has mercy and compassion on them or not (Moses, Paul), and that we cannot know. If the parents are believers, I do believe there's a much better chance of that, but we cannot know.

And yes , as adults we can be good and do good by choice.

Sure! But ~ you're going to love this... ~ there's good, and then there's good.

But you cannot be biblically moral unless you know the Bible.

Ah, I disagree with that. You know what they say about blind squirrels...

But as people, as Christians we are not dirty rags of sin...

Um, our works, in and of themselves, are as filthy rags. Unless they are done in faith, of course.which is the gift of God.

...we are the children of God and can choose to be good...we are not deprived.

Um, depraved, right? I would both agree and disagree with this statement. I mean, first of all, "choose to be good"... We all want to be good folks... But this is not quiiiiiiiiite what the Bible means by 'good'...

But going with what you seem to mean by this, you seem to think we can "choose to be good" in and of ourselves. On a purely human level, I agree, and Calvin would, too. Again, we all want to be good folks. But on a spiritual level, it's quite a different story. Paul disagrees, so I do, too. He says that for us Christians, it is God who is at work in us, and because of this, we will and work for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). And regarding your statement that we are not depraved... well that's the part I would agree and disagree with. As Christians, we are striving to put off the "old man" (which means he is still with us) and to put on the new (which we have become). So there's a spiritual battle going on within us all. So, again, yes... and no. But don't worry, the Holy Spirit, who dwells in us, will win in the end. Therefore, we will, too. Thank God for that.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

you would do well to read the WCF yourself. I feel like 80% of questions asked on this forum could be answered just by reading them. My preacher likes to use the WCF in his sermons. Heres a link for you.
Confession of Faith: The Orthodox Presbyterian Church

It's a great document. I've read it countless times. Well... many.

Grace and peace to you.