this!!!!! Yes!! Love it. I love TULIP, it is Biblical, romans 9 confirms it, God used john calvin to restore truth back into the church.
John Calvin and Calvinism.
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this!!!!! Yes!! Love it. I love TULIP, it is Biblical, romans 9 confirms it, God used john calvin to restore truth back into the church.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Every reference in TULIP is not in the Bible. Completely made up, just like every other man-made theological cliché. It is the preverbal red flag for false beliefs. Someone trying to hood winkle you in to believing something that is not true.
So, I'm supposedly not telling the truth about Calvinism? Or I'm supposedly not telling the truth about God's Word? Not telling the truth about what, Grailhunter? No matter; far be it from me to deprive you of your opinion (as if I were capable of that, anyway). At any rate, yet again, it's on you, as your the one bringing accusation.
Not at all. It's just a matter of deciding to understand it (and Scripture) correctly. Any able-minded person can do it. It's a matter of... free will, really. See what I did there?
That would be all you guys, actually, spinning Calvin's writings and thus distorting them ~ to some degree inadvertently, I think ~ into something quite different that what they are. That's most of the problem.That's good to know. Now he simply needs to change his handle to "Spinseeker".
Grace and peace to all of you.
And where or from whom to they receive this love of the truth, BH? As you probably know, we (Christians) love because He (God) first loved us (Christians) ~ 1 John 4:19. I guess I'm answering this question for you, but knowledge regarding the things of God is a gift of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:8).
To your first point, I agree that those who perish are perishing because, at least to this point, they have not received the love of the truth. It seems we're together on that, at least. As for the reason for this, it is because they are not ~ again, at least to this point ~ not born again of the Spirit.
To your second point, no one is ineligible for salvation, and in that sense, yes, all might be saved. And, well, yes, all things are possible with God, which is actually a quote from Jesus Himself, so again, yes, all might be saved. Frankly, it seems a bit funny to have to even say that, but there it is, I guess.
Now, whether that's sufficient or not to you to refute your assertion that Paul, in 2 Thessalonians 2:10, refutes Calvinism, that's surely up to you. But it should be.
And, for good measure, we're talking about the same Paul that wrote Romans 8-11 and Ephesians 1-2, among other things:"those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified..."
"it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy..."
"So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills..."
"He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved."
"In Him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose..."
"In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory..."
"In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit..."
"it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy..."
"So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills..."
"He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved."
"In Him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose..."
"In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory..."
"In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit..."
"Dodge it"... No, no dodging, especially anything in or regarding God's Word...
Grace and peace to you.
Three things about the book of Jonah, BibleHighlighter:
* The book of Jonah is really about Jonah, not Nineveh. He didn't want to go to Nineveh and preach the Gospel as God told him, because he hated them, and he didn't want the people of Nineveh to receive God's blessings. Jonah even tried to resist, but, well, you know the story. He ultimately did what God told him to do, because... Yes, you know the story.
* We can take at least this lesson from this, that the Gospel is for everyone, and is to be preached to all nations, whether we want to or not. God's purposes are what matter, not ours. As Jesus said, "Not my will, but yours be done."
* Yes, God did relent from destroying Nineveh... in Jonah. I would submit to you that this was His plan all along; He gave them grace, at least for a time. But ~ you knew there was a 'but' coming, right? ~ you might want to read the second book after Jonah ~ Nahum ~ and see what ultimately happened to Nineveh and its occupants. The judgment of God is a terrible thing.
Grace and peace to you.
* The book of Jonah is really about Jonah, not Nineveh. He didn't want to go to Nineveh and preach the Gospel as God told him, because he hated them, and he didn't want the people of Nineveh to receive God's blessings. Jonah even tried to resist, but, well, you know the story. He ultimately did what God told him to do, because... Yes, you know the story.
* We can take at least this lesson from this, that the Gospel is for everyone, and is to be preached to all nations, whether we want to or not. God's purposes are what matter, not ours. As Jesus said, "Not my will, but yours be done."
* Yes, God did relent from destroying Nineveh... in Jonah. I would submit to you that this was His plan all along; He gave them grace, at least for a time. But ~ you knew there was a 'but' coming, right?
~ you might want to read the second book after Jonah ~ Nahum ~ and see what ultimately happened to Nineveh and its occupants. The judgment of God is a terrible thing.Grace and peace to you.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
You keep saying that Calvinism believes in free-will and choice....I told you to prove it.
Then again, are you not telling the truth because you are being dishonest or is it that you really do not know that much about Calvinism. It seems you are not telling the truth.......but.....flipping a coin....on the average most people that profess to be Calvinists do not know that much about Calvinism. And that is not usually their fault. Like I said, I know a lot of good Calvinists, but most are hoodwinked.
Calvinist churches have a tendency to go that extra mile. They are friendly and some have a lot of amenities....some or all of these things, like talented choirs... Sunday schools divided by age groups....baby care....big cafeterias for functions....gyms for basketball and volleyball and what not....teen cafeterias...big stages and theaters....continual prayer rooms...I got one here that has a picnic area and fishing pond....and again not all have all these amenities but the point is....very family oriented and functional. (I am sure there are small and or bare bones Calvinist churches, I have not seen any.)
But still most are not going to these churches because of the theology. They may have friends and family that go to these churches so they provide an enjoyable social environment and there functionality makes it pleasant. On the surface most things seem normal, what is really going on is not discussed much. They discuss the Bible and go over scriptures but do not discuss the scriptures that they think point to total predestination and what that means. So the congregations do not know that these people believe they serve a Being that has enslaved them, they call it sovereignty. Like as if all gods are like this...Greek....Hindu...etc. But actually this belief is one of kind in history....we are not going to read to much about enslaving pagan gods. So the congregations are usually oblivious, thinking all things are normal. And here is one of the reasons.
First off, you not going to see too many Calvinist church signs out front that say Calvinist. Not like 1st Presbyterian church....or 1st Calvinist church. So when the people walk in, they have no clue. But some Calvinist churches maybe have Presbyterian or Baptist signs, because Calvinists are infiltrators. They take over churches....you can look up some of the information on Southern Baptists Conventions and read about there concern over Calvinism taking over in their churches.
The other thing, is that the congregation will never hear the truth from the pulpit. A Calvinist preacher is never going to step up to pulpit and say....You guys may think you are here of your own free-will, but you are not, we do not have the luxury of free-will. We serve a sovereign God that controls every single thing in the world, according to His Will. He controls everything you do, what you think, what you believe, and what you say. The sovereignty of God controls if you do good or do bad. And you can call yourself a Christian and be good and go to church, but know for sure and certain that your Salvation is not dependent on what you do or not do. It has nothing to do with you going to heaven or hell, God decided that before the creations of all things.....so they are not going to hear this and even you may not know the evils of Calvinism.
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Then you disagree with god:
Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
I never said miraculously- you did. Human logic can never arrive at faith! Human logic is always subordinated to teh Word of God. so when logic and the word contradict- logic must be tossed!
and you are still worng and have yet to show why!
and it is the fear of the Lord that brings the wisdom to study to show oneself approved!
they just migfht understand the message of salvation. god said He hihdes it from the wise and reveals it unto babes- and who is morte innocent that emotionally handicapped people!
You don't know if you r uncle could ever understand the gospel. Like so many other things- you are just making unproven assumptions.
Well I don't follow Calvin but christ- so this is a waste of space you wrote.
And again, I say, the burden is yours to prove that it doesn't. We're going back and forth on this. If you don't want to do that, I understand. But there is absolutely nothing that John Calvin wrote in his Institutes or anywhere else that refutes free-will choice. By omission, it should be reasonably concluded that John Calvin in no way refuted free-will choice but accepted it as incontrovertible. Thus those that call themselves Calvinists should accept it without reservation. I do.
I am honest as the day is long, and, without actually telling you what I do for a living ~ and I say that to make an obvious point ~ I am a five-point Calvinist ~ there are what we call "three-" and "four-pointers"
~ yes, I am well-versed in Calvinism. Sure. To you. I get that loud and clear. But you just asked a question of me ~ "...are you not telling the truth because...?" ~ which carried with it the accusation that I am lying, which... is not cool.
This is your opinion.
You're perfectly entitled to your opinion. It seems to me that you and some others here are "hoodwinked" ~ maybe of your own volition ~ about Calvinism.
I think that's generally true about every church, Calvinist or not. Most church members are nominal, really, and very possibly not really Christians at all, regardless of the theology adhered to in that church.
Same for Arminian. This means nothing, really.
LOL! Calvinism is not a denomination. But most denominations can easily be identified with either Calvinism or Arminianism, regardless whether it's actually posted anywhere.
That may be, but most churches have websites, and prominently in that website is the church's statement of faith, from which is very easily discernible which side of the fence the fall on. People "having no clue" is really their own fault; all it takes is a little ~ a little ~ due diligence.
Ah, yes, "infiltrators." LOL! Pretty much all churches in America were Calvinist until the Enlightenment of the 19th century.
LOL!
Well no, of course not, because that would be a falsehood.
All of it. I can tell you though that our congregation hears every week in the general welcome to all present ~ and especially visitors ~ is something along the lines of, "We believe you are not here by chance or accident, but rather have been led here by God's Holy Spirit..." But that does not in any way suggest a lack of free-will on the part of anyone. You may think it does, but it does not.
LOL! "Yeah." See immediately above.
Grace and peace to you.
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whewwww!!!! This is some tinfoil hat stuff here. first off, as a presbyterian, i can tell you for a fact that my church does not hide the fact that it is calvinist. I remember taking a class for all new members and the very first question the preacher asked was “what is reformed theology?” The first answer said was “calvinism!!”
most Sundays, on our call to worship, we read in unison parts of the WCF. Our preacher gave a sermon towards the end of last year about the narrow gate and how majority of mankind wont use it and are destined for hell. We hear terms like “depravity”, my preacher told me once, its not how much you sin that matters as much as feeling sorrow for those sins. He has talked about signs to know you are saved, we have community groups where groups of people goto each others houses to worship and study during the week. If this is living a calvinist lifestyle, i love it.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
And again, I say, the burden is yours to prove that it doesn't. We're going back and forth on this. If you don't want to do that, I understand. But there is absolutely nothing that John Calvin wrote in his Institutes or anywhere else that refutes free-will choice. By omission, it should be reasonably concluded that John Calvin in no way refuted free-will choice but accepted it as incontrovertible. Thus those that call themselves Calvinists should accept it without reservation. I do.
I am honest as the day is long, and, without actually telling you what I do for a living ~ and I say that to make an obvious point ~ I am a five-point Calvinist ~ there are what we call "three-" and "four-pointers"
Sure. To you. I get that loud and clear. But you just asked a question of me ~ "...are you not telling the truth because...?" ~ which carried with it the accusation that I am lying, which... is not cool.
This is your opinion.
You're perfectly entitled to your opinion. It seems to me that you and some others here are "hoodwinked" ~ maybe of your own volition ~ about Calvinism.
I think that's generally true about every church, Calvinist or not. Most church members are nominal, really, and very possibly not really Christians at all, regardless of the theology adhered to in that church.
Same for Arminian. This means nothing, really.
LOL! Calvinism is not a denomination. But most denominations can easily be identified with either Calvinism or Arminianism, regardless whether it's actually posted anywhere.
That may be, but most churches have websites, and prominently in that website is the church's statement of faith, from which is very easily discernible which side of the fence the fall on. People "having no clue" is really their own fault; all it takes is a little ~ a little ~ due diligence.
Ah, yes, "infiltrators." LOL! Pretty much all churches in America were Calvinist until the Enlightenment of the 19th century.
LOL!
Well no, of course not, because that would be a falsehood.
I can tell you though that our congregation hears every week in the general welcome to all present ~ and especially visitors ~ is something along the lines of, "We believe you are not here by chance or accident, but rather have been led here by God's Holy Spirit..." But that does not in any way suggest a lack of free-will on the part of anyone. You may think it does, but it does not.
LOL! "Yeah." See immediately above.
Grace and peace to you.
Your the Calvinist....prove your point.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Did not say they hide being Calvinist.....just what that means.
If you can do it then....you can post here where the WCF speaks of free-will and choice. Go for it.
sure thing, but i know you’ll twist this as well.
WCF chpt 10
“enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by his almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most FREELY, being made willing by his grace.”
theres 1 example.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I am the the Johnny Appleseed of truth, so no twisting here.
We are looking for a discussion or statement that indicates that John Calvin or Calvinism believes in free-will and choice, those words.
This discussion is about free-will and choice so those words have to appear or not appear.
I know that these statements are not there, so you cannot show them to me.
Also how does saved and unsaved being determined before creation, relate to Judgment Day would be interesting.
As posted earlier, you may have missed it, but here it says “as they come most FREELY, being made willing by his grace.”
what else is freely but free will?
what else is freely but free will?
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Your dodging the point I made. In 2 Thessalonians 2:10: Those who perish are perishing because they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. There is no MIGHT be saved in Calvinism. In the bizarro world of Calvinism: Those who perish are not to blame in the sense that they did not receiving the love of the truth because it was the god of Calvinism who Elected them to reprobation. In Calvinism: They simply are not even capable of receiving the love of the truth so as to be blamed for not doing so. In Calvinism: They are sinners and the god of Calvinism chose them to remain that way as a part of his sovereign decree and choice. But in reality, according to the Bible: God gives the free will offer of the love of the truth and it is their responsibility to either accept it or reject it. This free will choice is what we read in 2 Thessalonians 2:10. In a normal unbiased reading of 2 Thessalonians 2:10, they are perishing NOT because the god of Calvinism did not Elect them to salvation but they are perishing because THEY RECEIVED NOT the love of the truth. The blame falls on them and not God for their lack of being saved. But when I speak with Calvinists: Salvation or a lack of salvation falls squarely on the god of Calvinism.
You said:
No. Sorry. In Calvinism, they portray God as unloving because He force saves some to be saved against their will, and He forces others to not be saved against their will for no real reason (Hence why it is called UNconditional Election). But the Bible talks about how God is angry at sin and or the wicked. If Calvinism is true (Which it isn't): Then why does the Bible talk about how God is angry at wicked people and sin? It sounds like the god of Calvinism has anger issues. If the god of Calvinism is truly sovereign as the Calvinist proclaims, then why can he not snap his fingers and get every sinner or sinful person to stop sinning? Do you believe the god of Calvinism ordains evil and sin? If so, then your version of understanding on love is distorted greatly. Therefore, if you defend Calvinism: You are imposing an outside idea (eisegesis) into 1 John 4:19 and you are not trying to derive meaning out of what 1 John 4:19 is saying (exegesis).
You said:
So you are saying that 2 Thessalonians 2:10 is referring to believers before they received the love of the truth? Where does it say that in the verse? It simply doesn't. No such thing is implied in the context or within the verse itself. It says that they perish because they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. Again, there is no MIGHT be saved in Calvinism. In the world of Calvinism: The god of Calvinism knows who will be saved and not saved based on his Unconditional Election. There is no MIGHT be saved. They will be saved or they will not be saved based on his sovereign Calvinistic decree. For do you not believe God declares the end from the beginning according to Isaiah 46:10?
Then you believe in an extremely softcore version of Calvinism. Most Calvinists I encounter believe that the god of Calvinism unconditionally elects people to salvation. The rest were either Non-Elect either by default or they were Elected to Reprobation. Meaning, the god of Calvinism specifically chosen certain people to never be saved (without any chance to be saved). It was the choice of the god of Calvinism.
Now, whether that's sufficient or not to you to refute your assertion that Paul, in 2 Thessalonians 2:10, refutes Calvinism, that's surely up to you. But it should be.
We all know Calvinists love Romans 9. It's pretty much the only chapter in the Bible that sounds like Calvinism with a surface reading if one chooses to ignore the context.
Romans 8:30 is in context to Romans 8:28 in that they love God and they are called according to His purpose.
But the Bible also says many are called, few are chosen (Matthew 22:14).
Why would God call anyone if they are not chosen?
Verse 27 helps to clarify that these are the saints (hindsight) who have been glorified and it does not mean that a person cannot be called and not be chosen and it does not mean they cannot lose their salvation.
Romans 8:13 sets up the possibility for the believer.
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
This above statement does not make sense in the upside down world of Calvinism. For Romans 8:13 is saying if you live one way (according to the flesh or sin), you will die spiritually, but if you put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit, you will live eternally. This is simply not possible in Calvinism because the god of Calvinism elects to salvation and elects to reprobation.
So you don't believe in softcore Calvinism?You said:
You take these verses in Romans 9 to mean that the god of Calvinism has mercy on whom he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills?
Romans 9 is not isolated from the rest of the book of Romans.
The whole point of Romans 9 was written with the Jew in mind in how they were trying to earn salvation by “Works Alone Salvationism” (without God's grace through Jesus Christ), and how they found favor with God based on their nationality (in that they were God's people, Israel).
Romans 9:6-8 is a refutation of the Israelites false belief of salvific nationalism.
Romans 9:9-16 is a refutation of the Israelites false belief of “Works Alone Salvationism” (without Jesus and His grace) but salvation is by him who calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus (Compare Romans 9:11 with Romans 10:13).
Romans 9:17-18 sets up the dilemma for the Israelite in being saved by God's grace and mercy on His terms. Pharaoh was hardened on God's terms in that we know that a person's heart is hardened by their own sin. For a believer who sins and hardens their heart, they can then fall into unbelief and depart from the living God (See: Hebrews 3:12-15). Sin is the breaking of the Law or commandment (1 John 3:4). The Israelite was hardening their heart against God on account of their sin or disobedience to the command to believe in Jesus (1 John 3:23).
Romans 9:19 is the Israelite complaining about how can God find fault because they believe they are doing God's will as an Israelite.
Romans 9:20 A voice answers the Israelite and criticizes the Israelite. The voice asks a question from the Israelites perspective, “Why have you made me this way [i.e. as an Israelite, a keeper of the Law]?”
When reading Romans 9:21-23, we have to keep in mind that God elects based on His foreknowledge (His future foreknowledge of what they are going to do) (1 Peter 1:1-2). The language present in this passage is reminiscent of Jeremiah 18 about how God will form the clay based upon how a nation does not hear his voice, He will turn back on the good He would do unto them. God warns Jerusalem and Judah that He frames evil against them unless they repent. Meaning, based on what we do, a person will fall into one of two categories. The resurrection of life, and the resurrection of the damned (i.e. the vessels of wrath and mercy). God will render to every man according to his deeds (See: Romans 2:6).
Romans 9:30-32 clarifies (recaps) what was being said:
“What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;” (Romans 9:30-32).
“...rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles,
for to provoke them to jealousy.”
(Romans 11:11).
for to provoke them to jealousy.”
(Romans 11:11).
So Romans 9 is really not talking about Calvinistic Unconditional Election.
Even the word “call” used in Romans 9 in reference to God calling does not prove that God is forcing anything upon a person. For many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14).
You said:
Well, you just dodged my points in 2 Thessalonians 2:10. You did not really address the problem in how it refutes Calvinism. No real solution was brought forth by you, my friend.
You said:
May God's grace and peace be unto you, as well (even if we disagree strongly on Scripture).
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
being made.....willing by his grace.
Back to irritable grace....walking robots.
We know the truth. The one thing that Calvinism stands for is no free-will. There is no discussion in Calvin sources about how much John Calvin believed in free-will and choice. This discussion is pointless.
This might be an awkward question, but does it matter about free will so long as you get to Heaven??
Of course we can choose to believe or not. It's all through scripture. So is God complaining about people doing things he didn't want.
"He then urged the children of Israel to make a commitment, which he had made for himself and for his family: "Choose you this day whom ye will serve; . . . but as for me, and my house, we will serve the Lord." (Josh. 24:15.)
"Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."
How can anyone read this a think we don't have a choice?
"They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."
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