A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2

Jesus is the everlasting Wisdom of God, and the Wisdom of God is brought forth (Proverbs 8:25).

The passage about Wisdom, Proverbs chapter 8, is rich in metaphor. The Book of Proverbs contains poetry, a part of the Ketuvim - the Kh in TaNaKh.

A metaphor is defined as "a figure of speech by which, from some supposed resemblance or analogy, a name, an attribute, or an action belonging to or characteristic of one object is assigned to another to which it is not literally applicable; the figurative transfer of a descriptive or affirmative word or phrase from one thing to another; implied comparison by transference of terms: as, the ship spread its wings to the breeze; 'Judah is a lion's whelp,' Gen. xlix. 9." (The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.)

The opening of the Proverbs 8 passage makes the metaphorical element for the entire chapter abundantly clear with "Does not wisdom call, and understanding lift up her voice?" (Proverbs 8:1).

The writing of the Apostle Paul "Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God" (1 Corinthians 1:24) is relevant about God's Wisdom because apart from God's wisdom there is only foolishness and folly. Jesus Christ is literally the Wisdom of God.

In Proverbs chapter 8, wisdom is portrayed as a female, that is, "her"; on the other hand, the Apostle Paul declares that wisdom is a male, that is, Christ Jesus, "Him"; therefore the opening verse of Proverbs 8 clearly marks the metaphorical application for the chapter.

Proverbs chapter 8 is a metaphorical writing, so anybody taking Proverbs 8 as literal is taking Proverbs 8 out of context.

THE TRUTH (JOHN 14:6) ABOUT PROVERBS 8:22

"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old." (Proverbs 8:22, NASB)

"Jehovah possessed me -- the beginning of His way, Before His works since then." (Proverbs 8:22, YLT)

"The Lord created me the head of his ways for his works." (Proverbs 8:22, Septuagint - Apostolic Polyglot)

Proverbs 8 is a analogy, and the author is speaking metaphorically. Proverbs is poetry.

The word "created" (Strong's 2936 in the Septuagint's Proverbs 8:22 is more properly "founded" in the metaphorical sense and context of Proverbs. The word "founded" represents "established", as in establishing the King, that is, making the King apparent.

According to the Septuagint, YHWH God founded the Wisdom of God the beginning of God's ways for God's works.

"All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), so the Wisdom of God, Jesus, begins the creation and completes the creation (Proverbs 8:22, Revelation 3:14), Jesus is the beginning of creation of God because Jesus is not created while Jesus performed the creative act.

The Proverbs 8:22 Septuagint passage does not state the Wisdom of God was created, rather "the beginning of God's ways for God's works" is the Wisdom of God.

The Hebrew language is more expressive and accurate than the Septuagint's Greek with respect to this matter!

Proverbs 8:22 of the TaNaKh (the Hebrew Bible) has the word "possessed" (Strong's 7069) which properly and truthfully conveys that YHWH God possessed Wisdom at the beginning of God's way, before God's works of old - God always has Wisdom.

Your Proverbs 8:22 delusion is exposed!

THE TRUTH (JOHN 14:6) ABOUT PROVERBS 8:24-25

"When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no springs abounding with water" (Proverbs 8:24, NASB).

"Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth" (Proverbs 8:25, NASB).

"and before the abysses making; before the coming forth of the springs of waters:" (Proverbs 8:24, Septuagint - Apostolic Polyglot)

"before of the mountains the seating: and before all the hills he engenders me" (Proverbs 8:25, Septuagint - Apostolic Polyglot)

To be honest, the phrase "he engenders" in the Septuagint's Proverbs 8:25 is Strong's 1080 (literally birth, metaphorically endender, cause to arise, excite).

In the metaphorical context of Proverbs, the word "engenders" must be employed for the Septuagint - this is according to the Greek language, so the word "engenders" represents "cause to arise", as in cause to arise the King to the throne, that is, making the King abundantly apparent.

Again, the TaNaKh in the Hebrew language is more expressive and accurate than the Septuagint's Greek as will be demonstrated here.

The phrase "brought forth" carries the meaning of an unveiling as in royalty being presented.

The phrase "brought forth" is translated from chuwl (Stong's 2342 chuwl biblehub.com/hebrew/2342.htm) with these definitions (in order):

1. dance
2. twist, writhe
3. whirl

with various subsections for the definitions.

The phrase "waited for anxiously" is among the definitions for "brought forth" - specifically in association with Proverbs 8:24 and Proverbs 8:25.

The phrase "waited for anxiously", that is "brought forth", conveys the debut of God's Wisdom.

The phrase "waited for anxiously" carries the meaning of an unveiling as in royalty being presented.

The Wisdom of God was waited for anxiously by the creation IS THE CONTEXT in Proverbs 8 and expressed explicitly in Proverbs 8:24-25.

The phrase "brought forth" is translated from the Hebrew word chuwl (Stong's 2342) which conveys danced, paraded, brought forth, presented, and displayed, not created.

God brought forth in majesty God's Wisdom; in other words, YHWH God displayed the Wisdom of God in wonderful regal array.

The Wisdom of God is everlasting - Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24). YHWH God is always full of the Wisdom of God!

Since those of you who think that the Wisdom of God was created according to your interpretation of Proverbs 8, then you hold dear to your heart that YHWH God was lacking/absent of Wisdom.

In effect, you accuse YHWH God of being stupid.

The Wisdom of God is everlasting. YHWH God is always full of Wisdom!
You shamelessly and foolishly claim that God was stupid because you say that God's Wisdom was created according to Proverbs 8 - so your heart's contention is that God was without God's Wisdom at some point in eternity past.

 

[David in NJ]

You have taken Proverbs chapter 8 out of context.

In effect, you add to and/or subtract from scripture, and that is evil.

@Aunty Jane is partaker in the evil with you because she liked your post.

I plan on providing more detail about your Proverbs 8 deception in another post, shortly.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

ALL doctrinal error and false teaching comes from "adding to and taking away from God's words"

Just as it started in the Garden, it has never stopped.

 

[Kermos]

Yet Jesus himself told us... Differently!!!! STOP following your Pastor!!! And listen to JESUS... MY Lord and KING in the coming Kingdom... Not my God!!!

Bend over and grab your spiritual ankles... I'm about to give you a spiritual spanking not unlike the one given to the money changers received at the temple by Jesus Himself!!!

If we may let our Lord and King have the final word. Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24). Who does Jesus declare are the "true worshipers"? He insists, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father…"

Lord Jesus says "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30), so worshiping the Father is worshiping the One True God is worshiping Jesus!

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one with God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[jaybird]

Jesus teaches to worship the Father, who He calls the only true G-D.
very unlikely Jesus and the 12 would have taught a trinity as its not compatible with Judaism and would never had been allowed, yet we know in acts 5 the 12 were set free from jail and allowed to teach.
we also know from other ancient writers that James the brother of Jesus performed Jewish rituals at the temple even going into the most holy place, again had he been teaching a trinity or man god he would never been allowed to do this. this is common sense.

 

[Kermos]

Seeing as it is nearly Easter (it's Good Friday tomorrow), it's a good time to consider the words of Jesus when he was hanging on the cross. He said, Matthew 27:46 (WEB):

(46) About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lima sabachthani?” That is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Yet another example of Jesus referring to God (YHWH) as his God, thereby implying that Jesus was not God. He was quoting Psalm 22, pointing that Scripture to those who heard him, for it was prophetic of his crucifixion:

Psalm 22 (WEB):
For the Chief Musician; set to “The Doe of the Morning.” A Psalm by David.
(1) My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning?
(2) My God, I cry in the daytime, but you don’t answer; in the night season, and am not silent.
(3) But you are holy, you who inhabit the praises of Israel.
(4) Our fathers trusted in you. They trusted, and you delivered them.
(5) They cried to you, and were delivered. They trusted in you, and were not disappointed.
(6) But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised by the people.
(7) All those who see me mock me. They insult me with their lips. They shake their heads, saying,
(8) “He trusts in Yahweh. Let him deliver him. Let him rescue him, since he delights in him.”
(9) But you brought me out of the womb. You made me trust while at my mother’s breasts.
(10) I was thrown on you from my mother’s womb. You are my God since my mother bore me.
(11) Don’t be far from me, for trouble is near. For there is no one to help.
(12) Many bulls have surrounded me. Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
(13) They open their mouths wide against me, lions tearing prey and roaring.
(14) I am poured out like water. All my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax; it is melted within me.
(15) My strength is dried up like a potsherd. My tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth. You have brought me into the dust of death.
(16) For dogs have surrounded me. A company of evildoers have enclosed me. They have pierced my hands and feet.
(17) I can count all of my bones. They look and stare at me.
(18) They divide my garments among them. They cast lots for my clothing.
(19) But don’t be far off, Yahweh. You are my help: hurry to help me.
(20) Deliver my soul from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dog.
(21) Save me from the lion’s mouth! Yes, from the horns of the wild oxen, you have answered me.
(22) I will declare your name to my brothers. Among the assembly, I will praise you.
(23) You who fear Yahweh, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, glorify him! Stand in awe of him, all you descendants of Israel!
(24) For he has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, Neither has he hidden his face from him; but when he cried to him, he heard.
(25) Of you comes my praise in the great assembly. I will pay my vows before those who fear him.
(26) The humble shall eat and be satisfied. They shall praise Yahweh who seek after him. Let your hearts live forever.
(27) All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to Yahweh. All the relatives of the nations shall worship before you.
(28) For the kingdom is Yahweh’s. He is the ruler over the nations.
(29) All the rich ones of the earth shall eat and worship. All those who go down to the dust shall bow before him, even he who can’t keep his soul alive.
(30) Posterity shall serve him. Future generations shall be told about the Lord.
(31) They shall come and shall declare his righteousness to a people that shall be born, for he has done it.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one with God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[jaybird]

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

you cant be man and G-D both, men by definition are not G-D, thats what makes us men.
and son of the Most High is not the same as Most High. angels are sons of the Most High. trying to claim "son of" the Most High means Most High just creates more confusion.

 

[Kermos]

Still repeating the same old post over and over, eh? I count that's 15 times in this thread now. Please stop!

To keithr, @Aunty Jane, and @tigger 2,

The list of your deceptions grows and grows, so I post it to exhibit precisely who you serve. Let me remind the 3 of you.

@Aunty Jane

The spiritually, accurately, and truthfully (John 14:6) proclaimed explanation is in the following:

You take Colossians 1:15 wickedly out of context by failing to acknowledge that "firstborn of all creation" specifically refers to the resurrected Jesus as the "Firstborn" and the saints as the "all creation" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #560 in this thread)

as well as

You impose your evil thoughts of an incomplete context upon the words of Jesus recorded in John 8:58 by failing to acknowledge the sayings of Jesus that Jesus exists everlastingly prior to Abraham indicating that Jesus is everlasting YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #561 in this thread)

as well as

You deliberately try to deceive about John 1:18 then you extend that deception toward John 1:1 in your vain claim that Jesus is not God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #815 in this thread)]

as well as

You posted the Greek source word's definition of "beginning" in Revelation 3:14 as "ἀρχή archḗ, ar-khay'; from G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):—beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule." - no where in the definition is "created" - but truly Jesus is the commencement of all the Resurrection as God had me convey to you, and commencement is in the definition (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #820 in this thread)]

as well as

You serve your father of deception by failing to acknowledge the context of Jesus' words that Jesus refers to Himself as "I AM" in John 8:58 in reference to "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 during a discussion about "who God is" with the Jews, so Jesus pronounces Himself to be YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #564 in this thread)

You are a dangerously unreliable source.


@keithr

Your mouth and fingertips reveal the treasure of your heart demoting Jesus to a mere man by way of your illegitimate linguistics (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #635 with post #636 in this thread) - you (1) YOU disassociate the act of the Holy Spirit of God in Luke 1:34-35, (2) YOU deny Jesus' equality with God makes Jesus God as witnessed by the Apostle John (John 5:18), and (3) YOU lie about the Apostle Thomas calling Jesus God because truthfully the Apostle John recorded that "Thomas answered and said to Him" with the Him being Jesus "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28)!

You foolishly deny the context that Lord Jesus establishes the focus of "who God is" in the conversation recorded in John 8:31-5i at the outset (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #609 in this thread) - you quote the passage's conversation about "who God is" which contains a climactic conclusion then you proceeded to lie about the selfsame passage in your claim that the passage is not about "who God is".


@tigger 2

Your contrivance of eyheh being "I will be" indicates that you think that YHWH God did not exist but will become YHWH God at some time in the future after YHWH God speaks to Moses at the burning bush (Exodus 3:14) (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #644 in this thread); in other words, you think that YHWH God had to be created! This is according to your words of "I will be" for eyheh.

Additionally

You claim God's Wisdom was created by YHWH God who lacked Wisdom according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8 (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #752 in this thread), so, in effect, your heart's treasure is that YHWH God started off as a stupid being.


The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

Jesus teaches to worship the Father, who He calls the only true G-D.
very unlikely Jesus and the 12 would have taught a trinity as its not compatible with Judaism and would never had been allowed, yet we know in acts 5 the 12 were set free from jail and allowed to teach.
we also know from other ancient writers that James the brother of Jesus performed Jewish rituals at the temple even going into the most holy place, again had he been teaching a trinity or man god he would never been allowed to do this. this is common sense.

you cant be man and G-D both, men by definition are not G-D, thats what makes us men.
and son of the Most High is not the same as Most High. angels are sons of the Most High. trying to claim "son of" the Most High means Most High just creates more confusion.

Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed?" (John 20:28-29).

Here is Apostolic teaching because the Apostle Thomas said "my God" about Jesus.

One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) is the person of the Father and the person of the Son and the person of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[jaybird]

Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed?" (John 20:28-29).

Here is Apostolic teaching because the Apostle Thomas said "my God" about Jesus.

he didnt say Jesus was the Most High, thats pretty important.

One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) is the person of the Father and the person of the Son and the person of the Holy Spirit.

no Jew ever believed or taught this.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

doesnt work, this only works if other men are the Most High. are you the Most High?

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.

all sects at the time of Jesus believed the soul was immortal.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

this is what the passage actually says:

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Trins always adding and taking from scripture to make their doctrine work. bible says not to do that.
also important note, non trins do not have to edit the scripture.

 

[David in NJ]

he didnt say Jesus was the Most High, thats pretty important.


no Jew ever believed or taught this.


doesnt work, this only works if other men are the Most High. are you the Most High?


all sects at the time of Jesus believed the soul was immortal.



this is what the passage actually says:

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Trins always adding and taking from scripture to make their doctrine work. bible says not to do that.
also important note, non trins do not have to edit the scripture.

You left out the Truth of Revelation ch1 on purpose so here it is:

Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
To Him(JC) who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him(JC) be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Behold, He(JC) is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him(JC), even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

(JC speaking) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord(JC), “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and,

Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands
One like the Son of Man,

And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead.
But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen.

 

[tigger 2]

Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed?" (John 20:28-29).

Here is Apostolic teaching because the Apostle Thomas said "my God" about Jesus. [John 20:28]

One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) is the person of the Father and the person of the Son and the person of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

.............................................
Please give proper references for all your quotes.

John 20:28 is a statement by Thomas who had refused to believe that Jesus had been resurrected. His statement is a phrase without subject or verb and if subject and verb are to be supplied by the translator, it could read “you are My Lord and My God.” It is more likely, however, that it would be translated more like “My Lord and my God be praised.” This would mean that the phrase was meant as a doxology to the Father. Doxologies and other commonly used phrases frequently have words missing in the Greek text.

Many trinitarians say, instead, that this phrase by Thomas was an ADDRESS to Jesus. If true, this would mean that Thomas was naming Jesus by these words. However, it is rare that a person is addressed and not spoken to further. For example, “Then they said to him, ‘Lord, always give us this bread.’” (John 6:34).

However, there is actual proof that John did not intend this as an ADDRESS to Jesus.

You see, whenever John, and the other NT writers, used “Lord” as a noun of address, they used the form of the word known as a vocative. This means that if John understood Thomas’ word as an address to Jesus, they would write the word kurie. Whereas when they intended it as a subject (“The Lord then answered him..." - Luke 13:15”) they used the nominative form of the word (Kurios). Kurios is the form used at John 20:28.

So, the probability is that this incomplete phrase is a doxology to the Father.

Furthermore, if John had, somehow, understood Thomas’ statement as some trinitarians insist, he certainly would have provided some follow-up clarification and emphasis in his own comments.

Surely John would have shown Thomas prostrating himself before “God” and worshiping him (but he doesn’t!). So how does John summarize this incident?

- “But these were written that you may believe [Believe what? That Jesus is God? Here, then, is where it should have been written if John really believed such a thing:] that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.” - John 20:31, RSV. (Be sure to compare 1 John 5:5.)

Or, as the trinitarian The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985, states in a footnote for this scripture:

“This whole Gospel is written to show the truth of Jesus’ Messiahship and to present him as the Son of God, so that the readers may believe in him.”

Obviously, neither Jesus’ response, nor Thomas’ responses (before and after his statement at John 20:28), nor John’s summation of the event at 20:31 recognizes Thomas’ statement to mean that Jesus is the only true God!

See my study of this scripture here:

Examining the Trinity: MYGOD

 

[tigger 2]

You left out the Truth of Revelation ch1 on purpose so here it is:

Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
To Him(JC) who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him(JC) be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Behold, He(JC) is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him(JC), even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

(JC speaking) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord(JC), “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and,

Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands
One like the Son of Man,

And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead.
But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen.

..........................................
PLEASE give proper references for every quote you post!

There are only three places in the entire Bible where the title “Alpha and Omega” is used: Rev. 1:8; Rev. 21:6; Rev. 22:13. “Alpha and Omega” as found at Rev. 1:11 in the KJV and NKJV is recognized as spurious by most knowledgeable modern Bible scholars.

Virtually all modern translations do not include in Rev 1:11 the following words that are in the KJV version of that verse:

"Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and,”

This wording at the beginning of the KJV's version of Rev. 1:11 is not found in virtually any NT Greek text, nor is it mentioned, even as a footnote, in any modern translation or in Bruce Metzger's definitive A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Second Edition, New York: United Bible Societies, 1994.

There are only three pre-ninth century Greek MSS which attest to this passage [Rev. 1:11], and all three of them omit the phrase "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last." In addition, many later MSS and versions also omit. Hodges & Farstad's "Majority" text omits, and Robinson & Pierpont's "Byzantine/Majority" text omits. Thus whether one bases one's text largely on pre-ninth century MSS, or whether one bases one's text on the Majority of Greek MSS, either way, this phrase should be omitted.
......................................................

Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown
Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible

Revelation 1:11. I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last; and--The oldest manuscripts, omit all this clause. -
.......................................................

The Adam Clarke Commentary

Revelation 1

Verse 11." I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and

"This whole clause is wanting in ABC [א, A, C], thirty-one others; some editions; the Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopic, Armenian, Slavonic, Vulgate, Arethas, Andreas, and Primasius. Griesbach has left it out of the text." - http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?bk=65&ch=1

The truth of the above can be observed by merely examining most Greek NT texts, most trinitarian Bible translations, or most ancient Greek manuscripts of the NT.

 

[David in NJ]

..........................................
PLEASE give proper references for every quote you post!

There are only three places in the entire Bible where the title “Alpha and Omega” is used: Rev. 1:8; Rev. 21:6; Rev. 22:13. “Alpha and Omega” as found at Rev. 1:11 in the KJV and NKJV is recognized as spurious by most knowledgeable modern Bible scholars.

Virtually all modern translations do not include in Rev 1:11 the following words that are in the KJV version of that verse:

"Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and,”

This wording at the beginning of the KJV's version of Rev. 1:11 is not found in virtually any NT Greek text, nor is it mentioned, even as a footnote, in any modern translation or in Bruce Metzger's definitive A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Second Edition, New York: United Bible Societies, 1994.

There are only three pre-ninth century Greek MSS which attest to this passage [Rev. 1:11], and all three of them omit the phrase "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last." In addition, many later MSS and versions also omit. Hodges & Farstad's "Majority" text omits, and Robinson & Pierpont's "Byzantine/Majority" text omits. Thus whether one bases one's text largely on pre-ninth century MSS, or whether one bases one's text on the Majority of Greek MSS, either way, this phrase should be omitted.
......................................................

Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown
Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible

Revelation 1:11. I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last; and--The oldest manuscripts, omit all this clause. - http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/jamieson-fausset-brown/revelation/revelation-1.html

.......................................................

The Adam Clarke Commentary

Revelation 1

Verse 11." I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and

"This whole clause is wanting in ABC [א, A, C], thirty-one others; some editions; the Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopic, Armenian, Slavonic, Vulgate, Arethas, Andreas, and Primasius. Griesbach has left it out of the text." - http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?bk=65&ch=1

The truth of the above can be observed by merely examining most Greek NT texts, most trinitarian Bible translations, or most ancient Greek manuscripts of the NT.

lol x100

 

[David in NJ]

..........................................
PLEASE give proper references for every quote you post!

There are only three places in the entire Bible where the title “Alpha and Omega” is used: Rev. 1:8; Rev. 21:6; Rev. 22:13. “Alpha and Omega” as found at Rev. 1:11 in the KJV and NKJV is recognized as spurious by most knowledgeable modern Bible scholars.

Virtually all modern translations do not include in Rev 1:11 the following words that are in the KJV version of that verse:

"Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and,”

This wording at the beginning of the KJV's version of Rev. 1:11 is not found in virtually any NT Greek text, nor is it mentioned, even as a footnote, in any modern translation or in Bruce Metzger's definitive A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Second Edition, New York: United Bible Societies, 1994.

There are only three pre-ninth century Greek MSS which attest to this passage [Rev. 1:11], and all three of them omit the phrase "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last." In addition, many later MSS and versions also omit. Hodges & Farstad's "Majority" text omits, and Robinson & Pierpont's "Byzantine/Majority" text omits. Thus whether one bases one's text largely on pre-ninth century MSS, or whether one bases one's text on the Majority of Greek MSS, either way, this phrase should be omitted.
......................................................

Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown
Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible

Revelation 1:11. I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last; and--The oldest manuscripts, omit all this clause. - http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/jamieson-fausset-brown/revelation/revelation-1.html

.......................................................

The Adam Clarke Commentary

Revelation 1

Verse 11." I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and

"This whole clause is wanting in ABC [א, A, C], thirty-one others; some editions; the Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopic, Armenian, Slavonic, Vulgate, Arethas, Andreas, and Primasius. Griesbach has left it out of the text." - http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?bk=65&ch=1

The truth of the above can be observed by merely examining most Greek NT texts, most trinitarian Bible translations, or most ancient Greek manuscripts of the NT.

Rev 22:18-19 will haunt you for all eternity unless you bow your knee and heart, Today, unto the LORD Jesus Christ.

 

[jaybird]

You left out the Truth of Revelation ch1 on purpose so here it is:

i left out the manmade doctrine.

Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

who gave this revelation to Jesus? if we are to believe you guys, the Most High gave it to the Most High? and we know that makes no sense.

 

[Rich R]

continued from post #812

"I and the Father are One" (Jesus Christ, John 10:30).

While you may think that being one with someone else makes the two persons actually one, scripture indicates otherwise.

1 Corinthians 8:6 says not that the One God is ONLY the Father; otherwise, the Apostle Paul would be contradicting the Apostle John, the Apostle Thomas, the Apostle Peter, and Lord

John 17:21-22,

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:​

Of course if you are right, then we must conclude we are also God. Saying that 2 or more people "are one" is a very familiar figure of speech and we all know it means they are one in purpose or goals. We would never think that a crowd of people who "acted as one" was actually many people with one essence or whatever.

To prove the trinity it is essential that we depart from the normal meaning of many everyday words, a son and a father for starters. But it gets more and more convoluted as we change the meaning of many other words.

If we just take things as they are written there is no problem. 1 Cor 8:6 says in the most clearest terms that the only God is the Father. It requires a total mental disconnect to think it actually means "God the Son" is also God. Of course, saying that is wrong right out of the gate, since the words "God the Son" aren't even in the scriptures!

Confusion about Jesus mentioned near the word "creation" in Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 abounds, but this compilation clarifies the matter scripturally and Spiritually. First, here are the passages.

"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this" (Revelation 3:14).

That doesn't say Jesus was created? Then what does, "the beginning of the creation of God" actually mean? "Jesus existed forever, but he also had a beginning? How about just saying Jesus had a beginning, therefore he did not exist forever, other than in God's mind, the plan, the logos of John 1:1? Of course Ephesians says God chose us from before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4).

Besides, nobody wants to investigate for themselves what the word "logos" actually means. It's not an easy word for the modern Western person to understand. It takes some digging into the ancient way of Greek thought. It's much easier to just go along with tradition, so let's just change John 1:1 to, "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God." That way there is clear "proof" of the trinity and we don't have to understand what "logos" actually means.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15),

How do the words, "the firstborn of all creation" not say Jesus was born?

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove your error:

• Paul explained the firstborn in relation to the born of God persons (John 3:3-8) in this passage related to Colossians 1:15 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29).

Speaking of error, one grave error many make is in not understanding to or about whom something was written (Jew, Gentile, or Christian) as well as when it was written. Jesus said he came for, "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" in Matt 15:24. He was not there for Gentiles, and Christians didn't even exist at that time. Since Jesus was still alive, it was not possible to be a Christian. Christianity began on the day of Pentecost. Paul, on the other hand, wrote TO Christians (saints, the church) AFTER Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension.

Paul did talk about the new birth, when he said we are born again with incorruptible seed (1 Peter 1:23), but it may not necessarily be what Jesus was talking about with Nicodemus.

Do you think the new birth was actually available when Jesus talked to Nicodemus? If so, what was the point in Jesus getting crucified?

• Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) and the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) in that:
  • "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION (REVELATION 3:14), JESUS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD BECAUSE JESUS IS NOT CREATED WHILE JESUS PERFORMED THE CREATIVE ACT.

What's wrong with just believing Genesis 1:1? It says God created the heavens and the earth. Why all the word/idea twisting to say Jesus did it?

Maybe check out what doing something "through" something else actually means. Normally when one person goes through another person to get something done, it is understood there are two unique individuals involved. Where does it say God changed the meaning of "through?"

In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God, Almight Creator of Heaven and Earth.

Rev 3:14,

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
​

I'm thinking that says that God did the creation, startingt with Jesus. Not sure how it can be construed into saying Jesus created. See how God used the word "beginning" (arche) in other parts of scripture.

Since Jesus can say one sentence with multiple meanings

That is exactly what must be thought to prove the trinity. We have to invent meanings of words to say what's normally not possible to say. A son and his father being one person for starters. We can't just understand a father and a son in the way we normally do.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

Honestly, all I can say is that the fact that trinitarians have to go through so many mental gymnastics is in stark contrast to the many clear verses that require no "interpretation" whatsoever, that plainly say Jesus was a man. I've show at least 6 that say just that, "...the man Jesus Christ..." or some such equally clear declaration on Jesus' nature. There is no clear verse that state Jesus is God. That conclusion is possible only by bringing in verses from all over the place, none of which in and of themselves give any indication that Jesus is God.

A perfect example is insisting that the "Word" in John 1:1 is should be the word, "Jesus," thus "proving" Jesus is God, all the while simply ignoring John's clearly stated purpose in writing his Gospel.

John 20:31,

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
​

As I mentioned above, the only way this could be construed as saying Jesus is God is by abandoning the meaning of the words "son" and "God." Somehow a son and a father are no longer two separate people?

You keep bringing the name Emmanuel, while ignoring the many OT characters that had names with "god" in them. A name is a name. It doesn't define the nature of the one named. Jesus' nature is actually that of a son.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Pretty obvious that there is no more to say in this thread...apparently we have two who are only preaching to each other......repeating the same party line ad nauseum ad infinitum....waste of time really......ears, eyes and hearts are closed whilst pointing fingers at those who are just trying to tell the inconvenient truth. Ironic, isn’t it?

What is that famous line from Jack Nicholson....”You can’t handle the truth!”
This is apparently the case here.....we tried.....

 

[tigger 2]

Those who don't wish to know the truth refuse to seek it.

Immanuel

Should Jesus really be considered to be God because he was symbolically “named” Immanuel (Is. 7:14; Mt. 1:23) [1] which means “God is with us”? No more so than Gabriel was calling himself God when he visited Mary and declared: “The Lord is with thee” - Luke 1:28. Nor did Zacharias mean that John the Baptizer (his new son) was actually God when he was asked, “I wonder what this child [John] will turn out to be?”, and he answered, “Praise the Lord, the God of Israel, for he has come to visit his people and has redeemed them.” - Luke 1:66-68, LB.

Gabriel and Zacharias (Zechariah) meant exactly what Israelites have meant throughout thousands of years when saying “God is with us” and similar statements. They meant “God has favored us” or “God is helping us”! - Gen. 21:22; Ex. 18:19; Nu. 23:21; josh. 1:9; 1 Chron. 17:2; 2 chron. 1:1; 35:21; ezra 1:3; is. 8:10. And Joshua 1:17; 1 Samuel 10:7; 2 Chron. 15:2-4, 9 (cf., Jer. 1:8; Haggai 1:13).[2] But if we insist on trinitarian-type “proof,” then Gabriel must have meant that he (Gabriel) is God! And Zacharias (whose own name means ‘Jehovah is renowned’ - p. 678, TDOTB) must have meant that John the Baptizer is God! – Also see 1 Sam. 17:37; 2 Sam. 14:17; 1 Ki. 8:57; 1 Chron. 17:2; 22:18; 2 Chron. 36:23; Is. 41:10; Amos 5:14; Zech 8:23. (Also see “Immanuel” in the Insight books.)

This understanding is seen throughout the Bible. For example, “But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.” - 1 Corinthians 14:24-25, RSV.

Or, in a Psalm many of us apply to ourselves or our friends:

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; for thou art with me - ASV.


The acclaimed trinitarian Bible dictionary, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 1986, Vol. 2, pp. 86, 87, states:

“The name Emmanuel [or Immanuel] which occurs in Isa. 7:14 and 8:8 means lit. ‘God [is] with us’ .... In the context of the times of Isaiah and King Ahaz the name is given to a child as yet not conceived with the promise that the danger now threatening Israel from Syria and Samaria will pass ‘before the child knows how to refuse evil and choose the good.’ Thus, the child and its name is a sign of God’s gracious saving presence among his people .... [The name Emmanuel] could be a general statement that the birth and naming of the special child will indicate that the good hand of God is upon us.” - p. 86. And, “The point of the present passage [Matt. 1:23] is to see in the birth of Jesus a saving act of God, comparable with the birth of the first Emmanuel. Both births signify God’s presence with his people through a child.” - p. 87.

Or as noted trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris tells us:

“Matthew [in Matt. 1:23] is not saying, ‘Someone who is “God” is now physically with us,’ but ‘God is acting on our behalf in the person of Jesus.’” - p. 258, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992.

Footnotes:

1. How do we know that Immanu El in Hebrew means ‘God is with us’? We know because shortly after it is introduced in Isaiah 7:14 and repeated in 8:8, the very same Hebrew term is explained in 8:10 - “God is with us” - KJV; RSV; NRSV; NASB; NIV; NEB; REB; NJB; NAB; MLB; LB; etc.

2. Barnes' Notes on the NT:
Phil. 4:9
And the God of peace shall be with you.

The God who gives peace. Comp. Hebrews 13:20; 1 Thessalonians 5:23. See Barnes "Philippians 4:7". The meaning here is, that Paul, by pursuing the course of life which he had led, and which he here counsels them to follow, had found that it had been attended with the blessing of the God of peace, and he felt the fullest assurance that the same blessing would rest on them if they imitated his example. The way to obtain the blessing of the God of peace is to lead a holy life, and to perform with faithfulness all the duties which we owe to God and to our fellow-men.


**********************

The Adam Clarke Commentary

Ruth Chapter 2

Verse 4. Boaz came from Beth-lehem

This salutation between Boaz and his reapers is worthy of particular regard; he said, Yehovah immachem, "Jehovah be with you!" They said, yebarechecha Yehovah, "May Jehovah bless thee!" Can a pious mind read these godly salutations without wishing for a return of those simple primitive times? The words may be thus paraphrased: "May God be with you, to preserve you from accidents, and strengthen you to accomplish your work!" "May God bless THEE with the increase of the field, and grace to use his bounty to the glory of the Giver!"

***********************

The Adam Clarke Commentary

Luke 1:28
The Lord is with thee Thou art about to receive the most convincing proofs of God's peculiar favour towards thee.

**********************

The Adam Clarke Commentary

Phil. 4:9

And the God of peace He who is the author of peace, the lover of peace, and the maintainer of peace; he who has made peace between heaven and earth, by the mission and sacrifice of his Son, shall be ever with you while you believe and act as here recommended.

*********************

The Adam Clarke Commentary

Ps. 46:7

The Lord of hosts is with us We, feeble Jews, were but a handful of men; but the Lord of hosts-the God of armies, was on our side. Him none could attack with hope of success, and his legions could not be over-thrown.

*********************

John Darby's Synopsis of the New Testament

Phil. 4:9

"Moreover, the Christian, although walking (as we have seen) in the midst of evil and of trial, is to occupy himself with all that is good, and is able to do it when thus at peace, to live in this atmosphere, so that it shall pervade his heart, that he shall be habitually where God is to be found. This is an all-important command. We may be occupied with evil in order to condemn it; we may be right, but this is not communion with God in that which is good. But if occupied through His grace with that which is good, with that which comes from Himself, the God of peace is with us. In trouble we shall have the peace of God; in our ordinary life, if it be of this nature, we shall have the God of peace. Paul was the practical example of this; with regard to their walk, by following him in that which they had learnt and heard from him and seen in him, they should find that God was with them."

**********************

The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible

Luke 1:28 the Lord is with thee; so the angel to Gideon, (Judges 6:12) or "be with thee", an usual form of salutation among the Jews; (Ruth 2:4)

***********************

The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible

Ruth 2:4 and said unto the reapers, the Lord be with you; to give them health, and strength, and industry in their work

**************************

The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible

1 Chronicles 22:18 Is not the Lord your God with you? &c.] Blessing them with wealth and riches:

************************

The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible
2 Chronicles 1:1 And Solomon the son of David was strengthened in his kingdom, &c.] Well settled and established on the throne of his father, after the death of some persons, from whom he might expect trouble, see (1 Kings 2:46) and the Lord God was with him; directing and instructing him, prospering and succeeding him

*************************
Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament

Ruth 2:4
Jehovah be with thee. Jehovah bless thee (Ruth 2:4). It seems that these were customary salutations, acknowledging the blessing of the Lord in the abundance of the harvest.

***************************
Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament

Ps. 46:7

Jehovah of hosts is with us (Psalms 46:7). If God be for us, who can be against us, is the New Testament echo of this confidence. The great security is in God.

 

[David in NJ]

Pretty obvious that there is no more to say in this thread...apparently we have two who are only preaching to each other......repeating the same party line ad nauseum ad infinitum....waste of time really......ears, eyes and hearts are closed whilst pointing fingers at those who are just trying to tell the inconvenient truth. Ironic, isn’t it?

What is that famous line from Jack Nicholson....”You can’t handle the truth!”
This is apparently the case here.....we tried.....

Those of us who actually know who Yeshua/Jesus the Savior is have Clear Vision as our spiritual eyes have been opened by the Author of the Book that HE wrote.

Unfortunately for you Aunty Jane and some others, you remain in self-inflicted hardness of heart which results in temporary blindness that eventually leads to death if not corrected at the Feet of JESUS who is LORD.

Angels who are far more glorious and mighty then yourself all bow and worship at the Feet of JESUS the LORD.

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

 

[Aunty Jane]

Those of us who actually know who Yeshua/Jesus the Savior is have Clear Vision as our spiritual eyes have been opened by the Author of the Book that HE wrote.

Jesus never actually wrote a single word of scripture.....Its about him, but God allowed his human secretaries to do the writing...all of them were Jewish.

Unfortunately for you Aunty Jane and some others, you remain in self-inflicted hardness of heart which results in temporary blindness that eventually leads to death if not corrected at the Feet of JESUS who is LORD.

It saddens me that you cannot see the 'blindness' in yourself. You have been shown countless times that your understanding of scripture is sadly lacking. You tell the scriptures what to say according to your own indoctrination, rather than allowing them to instruct you.

"Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father"....it is the Father who is the LORD. (Philippians 2:11) Jesus is "Lord".
Jesus is also his Father's "servant". (Acts 4:27)

Angels who are far more glorious and mighty then yourself all bow and worship at the Feet of JESUS the LORD.

The angels know who Jesus is and not one of them 'worship' him because they know he is not "The LORD". Find me one passage of scripture where Jesus is ever called "LORD" (in all capitals). That is only for YHWH.
"Lord" is a title of respect, not a proper name.....its the equivalent of calling someone "Sir".
Seriously...have you ever done any real original word studies?

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

Who are the great multitude? Do you have any idea? Who are the 144,000 that John sees first?

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

What is this saying?
The son is the heir....if he was God these things would already be his. He is the "express image" of his Father, reflecting his qualities and personality...where does it say he is the image of himself? If he is sitting at God's right hand, is he waiting for something? David prophesied that he was. (Psalm 110:1-2)

For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Is Jesus just an angel? NO, he is the Archangel Michael, God's "firstborn" son.....how is he God's "firstborn" if he is God?
This is nonsense......no scripture supports what you believe unless you infer something that is not stated.

Every scripture you quote has the same vague inference that you rely on for your beliefs.....
None of what you quote means what you want it to say.

"Worship" in English does not mean the same in Greek.
It is translated "worship" when it pertains to God....and rendered "obeisance" when it is given to those who have authority, but are not deities. Jesus is not a deity, and never once claimed to be. The "Son of God" was NEVER "God the Son".....

The Bible was not written in English....ya know.