Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Don't go into mind readikng---You suck at it!
Only arrogance presumes to tell people what they believe before they even bother asking them! And you are dead wrong in your sinfulness of presumption.
John Calvin and Calvinism.
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Don't go into mind readikng---You suck at it!
Only arrogance presumes to tell people what they believe before they even bother asking them! And you are dead wrong in your sinfulness of presumption.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Care to prove it. Or are you going to just post your claims without backing them up with biblical facts.
Prove a negative? First show me where you get your theology from. Unless you have evidence Calvinism is correct, from the scripture itself, no one has to prove you wrong.
These verses are about Israel. Why do you keep quoting verses that don't support what you are claiming?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well it is you that saus "Calvinism" is wrong. YOu should be able to back that claim with biblical facts.
I get my theology from this book called the bible! Before I was exposed to any systematic theology, I spent over 1 1/2 years poring over the SCriptures! I was called a Calvinist and I didn't even know what that meant! I had to buy books on him to find out what they were calling me.
GThen I studied several major systematic theologies, dispensational, reformed and covenental, because I wanted to know what these were and should I adjust what I believed.
I had gone back to teh Catholic Church after I got saved, because that was all I knew. then after 3 years of studying Scripture, I was forced to leave Catholicism or bve kicked out for being a "heretic". All w ithout th eaid of anyone telling me what to believe.
So though I went to a dispensational bible college, One cann pin my theology down to any category. For most dispensationalists would be considered 3-4 point Calvinists and I am a staunch 5 pointer. And I camt tohat long before I knew who Calvin was and that he even has a point or more.
i’ll admit, i got jealous of pinseeker when you said he was Sproul’s pupil. I would have done just about anything to even meet Sproul, let alone be called a pupil of his. This may sound odd, but i love being a presbyterian, and i love it when i tell people i am a full 5 pt calvinist.
Back in my earlier days, i took no pride in saying i belonged to a DoC church. Heck, i didnt even know what that was.
I am a presbyterian because God wanted to show me the truth, and i am sooooo glad he led me and my family away from that other church.
Only in context, Romans 9 doesn't prove anything of the sort.
Do you really take your whole theology from a few verses ripped out of the middle of an explanation about how God dealt with the Jew and gentiles and make it about you?
So you believe in double predestination?
Not only that God chooses some individuals but deliberately creates others for the sole purpose of damnation?
Good thing you won the lottery, huh? Or did you? How could you ever really know? Perhaps God is just messing with you only to dump you into hell later. " Sorry, Ron, you weren't elected after all, Ta ta!"
Pride goes before a fall. The only thing you should love and boast about is Jesus.
I just did. Maybe you missed it.
God said he did everything necessary for his elect people, the Jews, but they still rejected him. The Bible doesn't support Calvinism.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Sorry. I disagree. I respectively must say: First, you are merely reading God's Word out of context.
As I have demonstrated previously in this thread, in my many discussions with Calvinists over the years, no Calvinist has yet to properly explain 2 Thessalonians 2:10, and Jonah 3:10 using the actual Bible. Secondly, God gave us emotions like sentiment for a reason. If they were to be misleading in some way then why did God give us such emotions? Did not Jesus weep? (John 11:35). Did Jesus tell us to have compassion on the half dead and wounded guy on lying on the side of the road?
Luke 10:33
“But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,”
Then Jesus said,
“Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.” (Luke 10:37).
You said:
Right, and if free will was given to Adam to choose God, then shouldn't we have the same ability?
In fact, we do read about free will in the Bible in being able to choose God.
My post #665 proves such a case.
Even after Adam, we learn about how God reasoned with Cain to do good.
If Cain was beyond doing good then why did God bother in wasting his time in telling Cain to do good?
Cain was said to be of that wicked one in 1 John 3:12.
In Genesis 4:7, God says to Cain:
“If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.”
According to a Calvinist, they don't believe the wicked or unsaved are capable of doing good on God's terms and they are totally depraved and in sin no matter what they do. They are dead. So if so... then why is God arguing with Cain to tell him to not sin? Cain is later described of being of that wicked one in 1 John 3:12. So why would God bother to rationalize with one that is reprobate and far gone beyond Him? Could not God just Elect Cain if He so desired instead?
You said:
That's Calvinism talking and not the Bible.
You said:
Where in the Bible does God say nonya or none of your business? That's you talking and not the Bible.
You said:
Romans 9 is not isolated from the rest of the book of Romans.
The whole point of Romans 9 was written with the Jew in mind in how they were trying to earn salvation by “Works Alone Salvationism” (without God's grace through Jesus Christ), and how they found favor with God based on their nationality (in that they were God's people, Israel).
Romans 9:6-8 is a refutation of the Israelites false belief of salvific nationalism.
Romans 9:9-16 is a refutation of the Israelites false belief of “Works Alone Salvationism” (without Jesus and His grace) but salvation is by him who calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus (Compare Romans 9:11 with Romans 10:13).
Romans 9:17-18 sets up the dilemma for the Israelite in being saved by God's grace and mercy on His terms. Pharaoh was hardened on God's terms in that we know that a person's heart is hardened by their own sin. For a believer who sins and hardens their heart, they can then fall into unbelief and depart from the living God (See: Hebrews 3:12-15). Sin is the breaking of the Law or commandment (1 John 3:4). The Israelite was hardening their heart against God on account of their sin or disobedience to the command to believe in Jesus (1 John 3:23).
Romans 9:19 is the Israelite complaining about how can God find fault because they believe they are doing God's will as an Israelite.
Romans 9:20 A voice answers the Israelite and criticizes the Israelite. The voice asks a question from the Israelites perspective, “Why have you made me this way [i.e. as an Israelite, a keeper of the Law]?”
When reading Romans 9:21-23, we have to keep in mind that God elects based on His foreknowledge (His future foreknowledge of what they are going to do) (1 Peter 1:1-2). The language present in this passage is reminiscent of Jeremiah 18 about how God will form the clay based upon how a nation does not hear his voice, He will turn back on the good He would do unto them. God warns Jerusalem and Judah that He frames evil against them unless they repent. Meaning, based on what we do, a person will fall into one of two categories. The resurrection of life, and the resurrection of the damned (i.e. the vessels of wrath and mercy). God will render to every man according to his deeds (See: Romans 2:6).
Romans 9:30-32 clarifies (recaps) what was being said:
“What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;” (Romans 9:30-32).
“...rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.” (Romans 11:11).
So Romans 9 is really not talking about Calvinistic Unconditional Election.
Even the word “call” used in Romans 9 in reference to God calling does not prove that God is forcing anything upon a person. For many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14).
Side Note:
No doubt you read Romans 9:20 with a Calvinist bias without taking any of the context or surrounding chapters into account. You no doubt read the phrase “Why hast thou made me thus?” and rejoice in your Calvinism. But it's not talking about that. The Jew is asking “why God have you made me as a Jew to keep the Law?” In other words, the Jews as a nation rejected the Messiah Jesus and His grace by faith and not by the works of the 613 Laws of Moses. The Gentiles attained after righteousness without being an Israelite and without having the 613 Laws of Moses (Which no longer apply under the New Covenant). Christians are under the Laws of Christ and not the Laws of Moses. Christians are initially saved and foundationally saved by grace without works. The Jews falsely believed in a form of Works ALONE Salvationism (Based on their own false man made traditions). It's what the Parable of the Tax Collector and Pharisee are all about. The Pharisee did not understand seeking forgiveness with God and he wrongfully made it all about righteous living alone to be right with God. While righteous living does play a part in our salvation, it is only AFTER we are saved by God's grace without works (See: Ephesians 2:8-9, and compare with 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Titus 1:16, Matthew 3:10).
You said:
This is you speaking and not the Bible.
2 Peter 3:9 says
“The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
Romans 10:21
“But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.”
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Really? I dont need to mind read, to know what I can read and hear from what calvinist's have told me over and over.
Perfect example that calvinist's teach you are regenerated first before you believe in Jesus.
Since, there is a "list" God has predestined before He created us, and these elected individuals cannot be removed from whom God has already elected.
Then it must be true that those who are in other religions like Hindus like Muslims etc. are saved without hearing the gospel. Fact these folks are saved WITHOUT BELIEVING IN JESUS 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
That is not mind-reading Sir. That is calvinist false doctrine.
You teach folks are born again without faith and the gospel,
Romans 1:16.
Calvinism: saved before faith in Christ!
I assure you friend, God never led anyone to John Calvin's teachings.
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Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Glad we are agreed on this point.
You said:
I don’t think that is an excuse that will work with God. Christians cannot ignore doctrine as taught in the Bible. Certain doctrines or beliefs are salvific. For example: Believing in the bodily resurrection is a salvation issue as per 1 Corinthians 15. Paul said that to deny the bodily resurrection is to deny the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The resurrection is a part of the gospel message or belief that saves a person when they first come to the faith for salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). As an illustration: I used to admire the church called “Christ’s Sanctified Holiness Church” that exists on the eastern states of the US (primarily) because they understood salvation as two works or two aspects (as I do). But then I later found out that the official church statement of belief rejects the bodily resurrection. One cannot do that and still lay claim to salvation. Granted, that may not mean all are not saved in that church, though. It’s attendees may not know that is what they teach or they simply reject their view on it. But I personally would not attend a church that rejects a salvific doctrine (as a part of their statement of faith).
Anyways: We are told to study to show ourselves approved unto God, a workman that need not be ashamed (2 Timothy 2:15).
Sadly, most just want to be spoon fed, and not study the Word for themselves.
They follow men and or church programs blindly.
They don’t realize that they must strive to enter the straight gate.
They don’t understand the verse that says that narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it. In other words, the way is more narrow than they think.
You said:
I think the church is more concerned with collecting money to keep the lights running and they are interested in putting on a show or cleverly devised speeches to entertain it’s members. But there is no real discipleship or commitments generally being made to invite it’s attendants to follow Jesus and do what He says or to go through some kind of biblical training program to love God and all others on the level that God requires. Most often (not for all): It’s attendees are not encouraged to be concerned with lost souls in handing out salvation tracts or in loving others by helping the poor in their area. It’s a man made program with the Pastor King ruling over them to think and speak what he wants and tells them to do and that is not the same kind of fellowship that existed in the early church in homes when they all had a Psalm a doctrine, a revelation, etcetera. Fellowship in the early church met in homes in small groups many times (not always) and they were close friends and had all things common in unity in serving Jesus Christ. Today, it’s a man made show where they speak out of the Bible but they really do not live it (in most cases).
Please see my attached PDF file from a fellow brother in Christ at the bottom of this post.
You said:
I believe that Calvinists believe in another Jesus or God because it clearly is not the same GOD described in the Bible. They have to ignore or twist many verses in order to make the god of Calvinism work. Their god is cold and heartless and even when pointed out they just don’t seem to get it when you explain it to them. They think that is how GOD is when in reality they are not believing in the GOD of the Bible. They ignore or twist verses like 2 Thessalonians 2:10, and Jonah 3:10.
You said:
Simply put… they were interpreting Scripture without the Holy Spirit and they were going off a man centered interpretation or grievous misunderstanding by not reading the whole counsel of God’s Word. When I was new in the faith, and I did not know all of the Bible yet, and I remember misinterpreting God’s Word to wrongfully shun my family during a holiday get together meal based off a wrong understanding on particular verse. I did not know what I know now through much study and prayer involving His Word.
You said:
The taking of another human life without God’s say so is never G rated. Even the MPAA would not agree with showing the gory details of a human murdering another violently and putting a G stamp rating on it. An R rating and or NC-17 would be the rating for such a visual witness of such an event. The Catholic’s unjust slaughter of many still does not undo the Puritan’s immoral actions involving the death of witches, as well. Both are just as equally bad. Sin is sin; And all sin is bad. For it only took one sin for the Fall to happen and not many sins.
You said:
We agree. The Calvinists in the past (i.e. the Puritans) did not get that basic understanding from studying Scripture. John Calvin also had others murdered if they disagreed with him on certain theological issues. So the fact that Calvinists like to follow John Calvin or his teachings is rather scary or sick because they don’t realize they are following a murderer. Sure, he may not have beheaded people himself, but he orchestrated the murders to happen by the hands of others when anyone disagreed with him on particular beliefs.
You said:
In the Old Testament, God clearly told His people to take the life of His enemies. Even at the return of Christ (i.e. the Second Coming), we can see that the saints will follow Jesus into a physical battle (But they are disembodied saints who have already lived out the faith). I created a write up involving many verses proving that the New Covenant way of living out our faith involves Non-Resistance.
Nonresistance as Taught in the New Testament is Moral and Good.
I created a common objections and answers section involving this biblical write up, as well. If you are already predisposed or conditioned to using violence and or weapons like guns your whole life, this kind of teaching will not be easily accepted (if it all).
...
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it is true that regeneration comes before faith. You cant have faith untill God regenerates you.
other religious groups arent normally saved. Again, keep in mind that most people are going to hell. But i will point out, the last few years, we have been hearing about muslims converting to christianity. If these rumors are true, then that is the only way a person of a different faith could be saved.
not true. John calvin himself even felt this same nudge from God. He wrote “A wanted man in Catholic France, Calvin sought refuge in neighboring Switzerland, and stopped at an inn in Geneva where he planned to spend just one night. But when local church leader William Farel learned that the author of "Institutes" was there, he stormed into the inn and told Calvin that it was God's will that he stay and preach in Geneva.
When Calvin tried to explain that he was a scholar, not a preacher, Farel turned red in the face (not hard for a redhead) and swore an oath that God would curse Calvin's so-called "studies" if he dared to leave Geneva. A man of great faith, Calvin took this as a sign.
"I felt as if God from heaven had laid his mighty hand upon me to stop me in my course," Calvin later wrote, "and I was so terror stricken that I did not continue my journey."
God led me and my family to leave that DoC church, and for me to become presbyterian, and my folks became baptists. Of that, i have no doubt.
This is the main reason for all the division in "Christendom"
Never heard of William Farel in my New King James Bible!
The only men that is told to all that have been given the right to speak for God,
are those chosen directly by Jesus Christ.
Only the apostles and other men given inspiration directly from Jesus have the right to say,
They speak for the Lord God!
No man outside the sacred scriptures can claim inspiration.
No wonder you believe what you believe.
You do not believe that only the Holy Bible has ALL Authority for man to know the will of God.
If a man came to me and said God told me directly to tell you, such and such...
I would tell that man, "who gave you the authority to speak for God"?
Answer, No one.
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