John Calvin and Calvinism.

[Bible Highlighter]

Well it is you that saus "Calvinism" is wrong. YOu should be able to back that claim with biblical facts.

I get my theology from this book called the bible! Before I was exposed to any systematic theology, I spent over 1 1/2 years poring over the SCriptures! I was called a Calvinist and I didn't even know what that meant! I had to buy books on him to find out what they were calling me.

GThen I studied several major systematic theologies, dispensational, reformed and covenental, because I wanted to know what these were and should I adjust what I believed.

I had gone back to teh Catholic Church after I got saved, because that was all I knew. then after 3 years of studying Scripture, I was forced to leave Catholicism or bve kicked out for being a "heretic". All w ithout th eaid of anyone telling me what to believe.

So though I went to a dispensational bible college, One cann pin my theology down to any category. For most dispensationalists would be considered 3-4 point Calvinists and I am a staunch 5 pointer. And I camt tohat long before I knew who Calvin was and that he even has a point or more.

You are not the first person to make the claim that they seen Calvinism in the Bible without knowing about such a name. But that does not mean that such a belief is true or good. Two people can both have the same wrong interpretation of Scripture but that does not make them correct because they did not know the theological label for their wrong interpretation. No doubt the followers of Jim Jones thought they were doing the right thing, but clearly they were deceived.

Reading Romans 9 out of context can lead someone to think in Calvinistic terms but they would have to ignore a whole pile of other verses in the Bible in order to make Calvinism true. Folks who accept Calvinism sort of reminds of those who believe in a Flat Earth. It goes against all rhyme, reason, and logic. Calvinists sort of remind me a guy I once met. He mindlessly screamed to the rest of the Bible study group that all we have to do is keep the 10 Commandments. No doubt the 10 Commandments are in the Bible but they were not given to the church but Israel. Only 9 out of the 10 commands do New Testament believers need to keep; And there are other moral laws Christians have to follow. He would know this if he read the Bible in context. Christians are under the Laws of Christ (Commands that come from Jesus and His followers and not the 613 Laws given to Moses). This guy would know this if he studied the matter closely with asking God for the Spirit to gain understanding on the matter. He could even claim to study the Bible on his own but without the help from God, they are understanding the Bible with a carnal mind.

I guarantee you that if you asked God for the Spirit to help you to understand the Bible, and to not change what the Bible says as a whole, you will no longer believe in Calvinism. It was invented by men. Calvinism fits a certain mindset or personality. It is a false religion that teaches that it is good to turn off your emotions. So it is a Vulcan or robot religion. For the moment you appeal to the morality of GOD, they immediately cast it aside in favor of the false god of Calvinism.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

This is the main reason for all the division in "Christendom"
Never heard of William Farel in my New King James Bible!

The only men that is told to all that have been given the right to speak for God,
are those chosen directly by Jesus Christ.
Only the apostles and other men given inspiration directly from Jesus have the right to say,
They speak for the Lord God!
No man outside the sacred scriptures can claim inspiration.

No wonder you believe what you believe.
You do not believe that only the Holy Bible has ALL Authority for man to know the will of God.

If a man came to me and said God told me directly to tell you, such and such...

I would tell that man, "who gave you the authority to speak for God"?
Answer, No one.

i believe God can use people, like calvin, to send messages. As a presbyterian, im a cessationist, but if God wanted someone today to have a vision, He could let them have one.
This is why im not big on christian science, they think all illnesses can be cured with prayer alone. I believe God gave us dr’s to heal us.

i suppose you think the WCF and our catechisms are worthless too?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Sorry. I disagree. I respectively must say: First, you are merely reading God's Word out of context.
As I have demonstrated previously in this thread, in my many discussions with Calvinists over the years, no Calvinist has yet to properly explain 2 Thessalonians 2:10, and Jonah 3:10 using the actual Bible. Secondly, God gave us emotions like sentiment for a reason. If they were to be misleading in some way then why did God give us such emotions? Did not Jesus weep? (John 11:35). Did Jesus tell us to have compassion on the half dead and wounded guy on lying on the side of the road?

Your free to disagree. But 2 Thess. 2:10 shows they received not the truth. Why ? Because as it is written in Romans 8- the natural man CANNOT receive the things of God.

As for you rpost #665- all those quotes say nothing about free will or predestination. They all simply say what the gospel message is! Like the parable of the sower and the seed- some seeds will fall on good ground (the elect) and some will not( the unelect) bad ground cannot choose to be good ground!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Really? I dont need to mind read, to know what I can read and hear from what calvinist's have told me over and over.

Perfect example that calvinist's teach you are regenerated first before you believe in Jesus.
Since, there is a "list" God has predestined before He created us, and these elected individuals cannot be removed from whom God has already elected.
Then it must be true that those who are in other religions like Hindus like Muslims etc. are saved without hearing the gospel. Fact these folks are saved WITHOUT BELIEVING IN JESUS 1Corinthians 15:1-4.

That is not mind-reading Sir. That is calvinist false doctrine.

You teach folks are born again without faith and the gospel,
Romans 1:16.
Calvinism: saved before faith in Christ!

Your ignorance of Calvinism is truly breathtaking!

Yes there is talk of regeneration for salvation, but not according to how you say it. You are just regurgitating something you heard without verifying it! All I can report ( for I cannot speak for all ho hold the five points) Is that the Holy Spirit has to do some kind of work in the elect in order for them to accept teh gospel. The natural man does not receive the things of God for to the natural man, they are foolish! That is the bible. And the Bible also says the elect are the elect from before the foundation of the world.

NO if someone doesn't hear the gospel, they are lost forever. They have no chance for salvation, like one who hears and does not accept.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are not the first person to make the claim that they seen Calvinism in the Bible without knowing about such a name. But that does not mean that such a belief is true or good. Two people can both have the same wrong interpretation of Scripture but that does not make them correct because they did not know the theological label for their wrong interpretation. No doubt the followers of Jim Jones thought they were doing the right thing, but clearly they were deceived.

Nor does the position of unelection and unpredesatination through free will is true either. But when I see the natural man will not recieve the things of God, that we are slaves to sin, that in our flesh dwells no good thing, that the natural man cannot please God, I don't see how anyone has the ability in and of themselves to choose god!

Reading Romans 9 out of context can lead someone to think in Calvinistic terms but they would have to ignore a whole pile of other verses in the Bible in order to make Calvinism true. Folks who accept Calvinism sort of reminds of those who believe in a Flat Earth. It goes against all rhyme, reason, and logic. Calvinists sort of remind me a guy I once met. He mindlessly screamed to the rest of the Bible study group that all we have to do is keep the 10 Commandments. No doubt the 10 Commandments are in the Bible but they were not given to the church but Israel. Only 9 out of the 10 commands do New Testament believers need to keep; And there are other moral laws Christians have to follow. He would know this if he read the Bible in context. Christians are under the Laws of Christ (Commands that come from Jesus and His followers and not the 613 Laws given to Moses). This guy would know this if he studied the matter closely with asking God for the Spirit to gain understanding on the matter. He could even claim to study the Bible on his own but without the help from God, they are understanding the Bible with a carnal mind.

YOu have made this false accusation before and I showed you from Scripture it is false. I will post it again!

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

this preparing ahead of time for glory is not for the Jews only- but for the Gentiles as well! So it is you who is pulling Romans 9 out of context when you speak of just Jews or Just jacob and Esau or just teh calling of Israel as a nation!

I guarantee you that if you asked God for the Spirit to help you to understand the Bible, and to not change what the Bible says as a whole, you will no longer believe in Calvinism. It was invented by men. Calvinism fits a certain mindset or personality. It is a false religion that teaches that it is good to turn off your emotions. So it is a Vulcan or robot religion. For the moment you appeal to the morality of GOD, they immediately cast it aside in favor of the false god of Calvinism.

Wow so many lies in such a short paragraph! I find it disgusting and demonic that you imply that I have not asked for the giudance of the Spirit because I hold to the five points of Calvinism.

What do you think you believe / It is called Armeniasm. Teh five points were a written answer at the council of Dort to rebut the five points crafted by Jacob Armenius!

So I am following a false religion in your arrogant opinion? that means I must not be saved!

Your argument on emotions is so juvenile as to not give an honest answer to.

Same with th emorality8 argument. Here you are simply speaking blatant falsehoods!

YOu have borne false witness against a brother and you will have to give account for it to God!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So you believe in double predestination?
Not only that God chooses some individuals but deliberately creates others for the sole purpose of damnation?
Good thing you won the lottery, huh? Or did you? How could you ever really know? Perhaps God is just messing with you only to dump you into hell later. " Sorry, Ron, you weren't elected after all, Ta ta!"

Sorry for you but I don't believe in double predestination. Stop trying to think for me, you suck at it!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is the main reason for all the division in "Christendom"
Never heard of William Farel in my New King James Bible!

The only men that is told to all that have been given the right to speak for God,
are those chosen directly by Jesus Christ.
Only the apostles and other men given inspiration directly from Jesus have the right to say,
They speak for the Lord God!
No man outside the sacred scriptures can claim inspiration.

No wonder you believe what you believe.
You do not believe that only the Holy Bible has ALL Authority for man to know the will of God.

If a man came to me and said God told me directly to tell you, such and such...

I would tell that man, "who gave you the authority to speak for God"?
Answer, No one.

Well all men are still inspired to speak for god! But the caveat for that is, it is inspired if it does not contradict Scripture!

Pastors are inspired to speak sermons. Believers are inspired to speak warnings or consolations etc. etc.

But none of them are the same inspiration as was given by the Holy Spirit to the writers of Scripture!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Only in context, Romans 9 doesn't prove anything of the sort.
Do you really take your whole theology from a few verses ripped out of the middle of an explanation about how God dealt with the Jew and gentiles and make it about you?

Well I hate to tell you but Paul decided to include the rest of the world in Romans 9:

Romans 9:21-24
King James Version

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Read verse 24 ten times and get back to us!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Prove a negative? First show me where you get your theology from. Unless you have evidence Calvinism is correct, from the scripture itself, no one has to prove you wrong.

You love to say those who know the five points are biblical throw away logic and sanity! Well human logic and the human definition of sanity? Yes we do!!!!!

1. Jesus own family before His resurrection thought Him insane!

2. It is not logical for a man to take 5 loaves and a few fish, pray over them and feed close to 20,000 people and have baskets of leftovers! that defies logic and sanity! And the bible says Jesus did it twice!!!!! You have to throw away logic to believe that.

3. It is not logical to believe Jesus spoke to a man and his withered hand was made whole! It defies logic! You haver to throw away logic to believe that!

4. It is not logical for Jesus to say to a man pick up his mat and go home, when he could not walk for thirty+ years, but he did! It defies logic.

5. It is not logical for Jesus to speak to a man who has been dead for four days and have him walk out of his tomb! Logic demand sdecomposition already starting taking place! But it happened! You have to throw away logic to believe that!

6. It defies logic for Jesus to walk on water in a hurricane force storm! But He did. You have to throw away logic to believe that!

7. It is not logical for Jesus to fill 6 waterpots with water and it become fine wine! You have to throw away logic to believe that!

8. It is not logical for a man, who was beaten with teh Roman 39 lashes, nailed in his wrists and feet, had a spear piece His pericardium sac, so he bled completely out and died, to rise again from teh dead! YOu have to throw away logic to believe that


What you do with your pronouncement is erect an altar to the secular gods of sanity and logic and worship there.

 

[Titus]

i believe God can use people, like calvin, to send messages. As a presbyterian, im a cessationist, but if God wanted someone today to have a vision, He could let them have one.
This is why im not big on christian science, they think all illnesses can be cured with prayer alone. I believe God gave us dr’s to heal us.

i suppose you think the WCF and our catechisms are worthless too?

Churches creeds and statements of faith are never in step with the new testament revelation.

The new and old covenants teach against adding to Gods word.
If we needed WCF, it would be written in the new testament.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
that the man of God may be complete throughly equipped for every good work.

If you think you need WCF and church creeds etc. You do not believe this verse!
Complete means we have everything supplied to us for spiritual knowledge and godly living,.
If the Bible does not supply all we need to know to live and serve God. Then the revelation of the Bible is not yet finished!
We need more latter day revelation.
Life long sinner, either you believe the bible makes us complete or you don't.
I believe what God says in His perfect, completed revelation.

A study aid that a christian may put together for a Bible subject is fine.
But WCF is not an aid to bible study. It is a latter day revelation. A doctrine that you cannot find in the new testament. It adds to Gods word.

Revelation 22:18-19

 

[Renniks]

Sorry for you but I don't believe in double predestination. Stop trying to think for me, you suck at it!

What a mature response.

 

[Renniks]

Well I hate to tell you but Paul decided to include the rest of the world in Romans 9:

Romans 9:21-24
King James Version

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Read verse 24 ten times and get back to us!

I've read it more times than that already.
It's still not about unconditional election.
He had much patience with his people Israel so that he could spread the good news of the gospel to everyone.
"In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use.
Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work."
2 Timothy 2:20

Nothing unconditional about election.

 

[Renniks]

You love to say those who know the five points are biblical throw away logic and sanity! Well human logic and the human definition of sanity? Yes we do!!!!!

1. Jesus own family before His resurrection thought Him insane!

2. It is not logical for a man to take 5 loaves and a few fish, pray over them and feed close to 20,000 people and have baskets of leftovers! that defies logic and sanity! And the bible says Jesus did it twice!!!!! You have to throw away logic to believe that.

3. It is not logical to believe Jesus spoke to a man and his withered hand was made whole! It defies logic! You haver to throw away logic to believe that!

4. It is not logical for Jesus to say to a man pick up his mat and go home, when he could not walk for thirty+ years, but he did! It defies logic.

5. It is not logical for Jesus to speak to a man who has been dead for four days and have him walk out of his tomb! Logic demand sdecomposition already starting taking place! But it happened! You have to throw away logic to believe that!

6. It defies logic for Jesus to walk on water in a hurricane force storm! But He did. You have to throw away logic to believe that!

7. It is not logical for Jesus to fill 6 waterpots with water and it become fine wine! You have to throw away logic to believe that!

8. It is not logical for a man, who was beaten with teh Roman 39 lashes, nailed in his wrists and feet, had a spear piece His pericardium sac, so he bled completely out and died, to rise again from teh dead! YOu have to throw away logic to believe that


What you do with your pronouncement is erect an altar to the secular gods of sanity and logic and worship there.

I have no idea what you are going on about. I never said anything about logic.

 

[Titus]

I have no idea what you are going on about. I never said anything about logic.

I was the one who brought up logical reasoning.
My point about calvinism not being logical or morally right is,
Inherited sin, which supposedly caused mankind to develop a depraved nature.

No one would except it to be morally right for future family members to pay for crimes commited by great, great, Grandpa. Even calvinist's would not agree with a legal system that punished future generations for the great, great Grandfathers crimes. Inherited sin is morally wrong. It is immoral to punish those who did not commit the crime.

It is also not logical to punish those who have not commited the crime.
Yet calvinist's are ok when their god acts in a immoral and illogical way.

So, yes it is not logical to believe the false doctrines in Calvin's TULIP.

To be a calvinist you must abandon logic and embrace insanity

 

[Titus]

Well all men are still inspired to speak for god! But the caveat for that is, it is inspired if it does not contradict Scripture!

Pastors are inspired to speak sermons. Believers are inspired to speak warnings or consolations etc. etc.

But none of them are the same inspiration as was given by the Holy Spirit to the writers of Scripture!

You don't understand what being Inspired is if you think preachers are Inspired.
Are the English translations Inspired ? Obviously not because even in good English translations, like the KJV, has some errors. No one is Inspired today.
Your interpretation of Inspired, is why christianity is full of confusion.
How are you going to prove John Calvin was Inspired?
I know how the apostles proved what they taught was from God.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Churches creeds and statements of faith are never in step with the new testament revelation.

The new and old covenants teach against adding to Gods word.
If we needed WCF, it would be written in the new testament.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
that the man of God may be complete throughly equipped for every good work.

If you think you need WCF and church creeds etc. You do not believe this verse!
Complete means we have everything supplied to us for spiritual knowledge and godly living,.
If the Bible does not supply all we need to know to live and serve God. Then the revelation of the Bible is not yet finished!
We need more latter day revelation.
Life long sinner, either you believe the bible makes us complete or you don't.
I believe what God says in His perfect, completed revelation.

A study aid that a christian may put together for a Bible subject is fine.
But WCF is not an aid to bible study. It is a latter day revelation. A doctrine that you cannot find in the new testament. It adds to Gods word.

Revelation 22:18-19

the WCF and our catechisms say what the Bible says. When you think about going to a new church, dont you look up their values? Using the WCF helps to let everyone know what that denomination or church believes and teaches.

“The Westminster Confession of Faith is a systematic exposition of Calvinism, written from a Puritan viewpoint. It was originally drafted to reform the Church of England and to unify the various Christian sects in England at that time. The document addresses doctrines such as the Trinity, the sacrificial death and resurrection of Jesus, sola scriptura, and sola fide.”

I have to wonder which denomination do you belong to?

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

I was the one who brought up logical reasoning.
My point about calvinism not being logical or morally right is,
Inherited sin, which supposedly caused mankind to develop a depraved nature.

No one would except it to be morally right for future family members to pay for crimes commited by great, great, Grandpa. Even calvinist's would not agree with a legal system that punished future generations for the great, great Grandfathers crimes. Inherited sin is morally wrong. It is immoral to punish those who did not commit the crime.

It is also not logical to punish those who have not commited the crime.
Yet calvinist's are ok when their god acts in a immoral and illogical way.

So, yes it is not logical to believe the false doctrines in Calvin's TULIP.

To be a calvinist you must abandon logic and embrace insanity

The fall of man as discussed in the WCF chpt 6.
“By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.

3. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed; and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.

4. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.”

yea, total depravity or “T” in tulip is the result of the fall in the garden and is passed down generation to generation. That is why its called a curse.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Of importance as to creeds and confessionals, the WCF chpt 31 says this;
“It belongeth to synods and councils, ministerially to determine controversies of faith, and cases of conscience; to set down rules and directions for the better ordering of the public worship of God, and government of his church; to receive complaints in cases of maladministration, and authoritatively to determine the same: which decrees and determinations, if consonant to the Word of God, are to be received with reverence and submission; not only for their agreement with the Word, but also for the power whereby they are made, as being an ordinance of God appointed thereunto in his Word.”

 

[Grailhunter]

I don’t think that is an excuse that will work with God. Christians cannot ignore doctrine as taught in the Bible.

Grailhunter--->This could have a very very long explaination.....I will try to make it short.
The question is do you understand the doctrine as taught in the Bible? Sounds mean but it is a funny.
Your average person has a lot of problems with the Bible. Puts most to sleep, that is why they put it in hotel rooms.
The other problems are reading comprehension and attention spans.
Then there is reading a translation from writings thousands of years ago in different cultures.
Hundreds of variances in the Bible for readers to read and pick a side to the variances, and they all do not pick the same side. Which means innumerable possibilities of assembling beliefs in different patterns and groups...ergo over 30,000 protestants denominations worldwide. I am sticking with 30,000 because that is what I have verified but people will argue with me for over 50,000 denominations.

So those living through the first 65 years of Christianity did not have Bibles, but still were saved. As time progressed they heard the Word in church and part of that Word was that Christ would return soon. So what they heard was in there own language in the context of their own time period....culture and social understandings. If we were transported back in that era it would seem incredibly alien and cruel. But this is the contexts that people understood Christianity.

Christ in fact does not return quickly and time marches forward. Men with strong beliefs get a hold of the scriptures and change some of the scriptures and use the translational process to input their beliefs in the finished Bibles. Groups begin to splinter off with various beliefs and the Catholic Church tries to use force to keep one belief. It never works. The Protestant Reform happens and it was like hitting a plate glass with a hammer and the church begins to fracture into thousands and thousands of denominations.

So how does an ordinary person wade through all of this? As a whole they usually do not do very well. Comfortable churches become the norm and it is not entirely their fault....How many fingers in the pie of scriptural translation and interpretation. How long does it take to be a full-fledged theologian, I have seen people spend 30 years of collage and still not grasp it.

And then you have people turning to Christianity and trusting, but sometimes what they meet is some time like a crouching wolves....the Cults and Calvinism and the Once Saved Always Saved groups and the Jehovah's Witnesses. They do not have the background to recognize these people as false prophets, so they fall pray. The Calvinists saying God is the incredible enslaving puppet master. The Once Saved Always Saved groups saying you can sin all you want and go to heaven...heaven will be full of sinners and evil with a grand celebration going on all the time....I guess God and good people will have to move out. The Jehovah's Witnesses attack salvation itself.....denying the deity of Christ. So what these people believe, will it send them to hell? So is Christ going to consider that it is not an easy thing to weed through all this to find true beliefs? It is a matter of opinion. Could it be that Christians that are good and moral, that picked the wrong beliefs could find themselves in hell? It is possible if those belief leads others to hell. So it is possible but, I do not think it is the rule, even though some believe that the 1 out of the 30,000 denominations they picked is the only one going to heaven.

 

[Grailhunter]

I don’t think that is an excuse that will work with God. Christians cannot ignore doctrine as taught in the Bible. Certain doctrines or beliefs are salvific. For example: Believing in the bodily resurrection is a salvation issue as per 1 Corinthians 15. Paul said that to deny the bodily resurrection is to deny the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The resurrection is a part of the gospel message or belief that saves a person when they first come to the faith for salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). As an illustration: I used to admire the church called “Christ’s Sanctified Holiness Church” that exists on the eastern states of the US (primarily) because they understood salvation as two works or two aspects (as I do). But then I later found out that the official church statement of belief rejects the bodily resurrection. One cannot do that and still lay claim to salvation. Granted, that may not mean all are not saved in that church, though. It’s attendees may not know that is what they teach or they simply reject their view on it. But I personally would not attend a church that rejects a salvific doctrine (as a part of their statement of faith).

According to some, the Apostle's Creed is the statement of Faith for Christianity. Some believe that people read it out loud before everyone before being Baptized.