John Calvin and Calvinism.

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praise_yeshua

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I agree that these verses are about circumcision.
Capitalizing the word law does not make the law of sin and death, the law of Moses. The law of sin and death is- you sin- you die! The Mosaic Law condemns not kills, sin kills.

There was a big Jewish problem in Galatia, not so much in Rome ! REad romans 7 to understand Romans 8. In our flesh dwells no good thing! That is not the law!

BAM.... it is refreshing to see such clearly articulated truth......

The law of sin and death has been from the beginning. It has bound all of humanity from the beginning. Jesus Christ has freed us from the law of sin and death. Praise His Holy Name!
 
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Ronald Nolette

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You contradict the will of God all the time.

God sets limits and defines boundaries. Man moves within those boundaries and limits of his own free will.

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Well this may be the3 desire of God, but not the Sovereign will of God! If God decrees- it is done and man cannot cross that point!

Some call this stuff teh permissive will of god and I am content with that, because Scripture tells us nothing happens without God allowing it! He gives us volition to act and choose within bounds as you said, but I make a distinction between will and volition.

volition is the ability to make choices in this life- what to wear, eat drive, etc.

Where will biblically has to do with teh ability to do right and wrong or choose god or not. Man does not have that will in his nature.
 

praise_yeshua

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Well this may be the3 desire of God, but not the Sovereign will of God! If God decrees- it is done and man cannot cross that point!

Like I said. Boundaries. Limitations. Man moves within those boundaries and limitation of his own free will.

We can argue about boundaries but that is how God has fabricated this realty we live within. Sin is rejecting the will of God.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Like I said. Boundaries. Limitations. Man moves within those boundaries and limitation of his own free will.

We can argue about boundaries but that is how God has fabricated this realty we live within. Sin is rejecting the will of God.

I choose to stay away from free will, simply because those two terms are at the heart of debate about can unsaved man, dead in sins and cannot please god has free will to choose God.

I prefer to label our choices as volitional choices. But yes we have that freeedom in the bounds.
 

Ronald Nolette

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You can call it whatever you wish. But it is a fact and here is the Bible proof:

ROMANS 10: BUT THEY HAVE NOT ALL OBEYED THE GOSPEL
16 But they have not all obeyed the Gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by
them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


1. Did God and Christ desire the salvation of all Israel? Absolutely
2. Did the majority of Jews reject Christ? Absolutely
3. Was this actually disobedience to the Gospel? Absolutely
4. Did God allow this disobedience? Absolutely

If anything, every Jew should have been saved, since Israel was the "elect" nation of God. But the truth is that only a small believing remnant was saved.

Well I will take the whole counsel of god! god laid out a plan for Israel and He will accomplish it. It includes manyups and downs. god can do that without our counsel.

But disobedience does not supercede the sovereign will of god. If it does then that means mans will is greater than Gods will.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Calvinists contradicting themselves again!
God died for all but not really.

Calvinists: " God died for everyone, but not really. "

" He wants everyone to be saved but he doesn't let most get saved.'
Your god is schizophrenic.

No it is your understanding that is schizophrenic.

Jesus is the propitiation for teh sins of the world! But not all recieve that propitiation. I can't apologize for you not understanding that biblical truth.

For the second sentence. Too bad, that is SCripture! Why? I couldn't tell you! god didn't say why He does what He does! He just revealed what He does and will do!
 

Ronald Nolette

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But this does not sound like Calvin's UNconditional Election. According to UNconditional Election, the god of Calvinism elects to salvation based on no conditions found within the individual. So in the bizarro world of Calvinism: Future foreknowledge does not play a part in God's decision in election. According to the god of Calvinism (described by a pure 5 point Calvinist), he elects based not on anything they would do so he gets all the glory. So knowing the end from the beginning really does not factor into the equation within Calvinism. Time has no real purpose involving Election.

well I can't help how it sounds to you. There are no preconditions to election. We were chosen before God created the universe! Romans 9i explains that by example: 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Believers are called without precondition- but by the call of God!
 

praise_yeshua

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I choose to stay away from free will, simply because those two terms are at the heart of debate about can unsaved man, dead in sins and cannot please god has free will to choose God.

I prefer to label our choices as volitional choices. But yes we have that freeedom in the bounds.

The Gospel bridges the heavenly to the natural. The Gospel message presents heavenly truth in simple/common/earthly messages to appeal to humanity. Calvinists often ignore this fact. They pretend there must be something "special" that takes place for a person to accept that message when the message itself is the Grace of God in Jesus Christ.

It is like telling someone that is dying of thirst, "Here is water" but "you can't drink"......
 

Ronald Nolette

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But in real election according to how the Bible describes it: Foreknowledge is a key component. 1 Peter 1:1-2 says that believers are elected according to the foreknowledge of God the Father. Meaning, God elects based on what he will see that they will do of their own free will in the future (i.e. their positive response). So God's election is based on his future foreknowledge. He can state something to be true before it happens.


Wrong again . You are mis defining foreknowledge. the word is "pro- ginosko" which means known in advance. It does not mean to see into teh future and know what actions will be taken by man so god makes His choice on that basis. Prognosis means known in advance by pre-planning. IOW- A doctor gives you a "prognosis" (foreknowledge) because He knows what he will do and knows the outcomes of his actions- not your choices. Another example is th eold AAA triptiks. You know where you are going and how to get there, because you preplanned your route! Sorry but Armeniasts misdefine foreknowledge terribly, then add to teh Scripture "God elects based on what He will see they will do in the future of their own free will". Can you show me where it says or strongly hints of that?

We are dead in trespasses and sins. We are slaves to sin, there is no good thing in our human nature. From the sole of the foot to the crown of the head their is no soundness in man. OUr good deeds are filthy rags. We were conceived in iniquity and born in sin! As Gentiles we were part of the race that were without hope and without God in the world.

I suppose you are one of those who believes God has a plan b for those who never hear the gospel?
 

praise_yeshua

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well I can't help how it sounds to you. There are no preconditions to election. We were chosen before God created the universe! Romans 9i explains that by example: 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Believers are called without precondition- but by the call of God!

You can't show you were chosen from the Scriptures. There is only ONE individual that was chosen. That is Jesus Christ. All others are chosen in Him. It is corporal choice of an unnamed group. That group only has life in the singular name of Jesus Christ.
 
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praise_yeshua

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Wrong again . You are mis defining foreknowledge. the word is "pro- ginosko" which means known in advance. It does not mean to see into teh future and know what actions will be taken by man so god makes His choice on that basis. Prognosis means known in advance by pre-planning. IOW- A doctor gives you a "prognosis" (foreknowledge) because He knows what he will do and knows the outcomes of his actions- not your choices. Another example is th eold AAA triptiks. You know where you are going and how to get there, because you preplanned your route! Sorry but Armeniasts misdefine foreknowledge terribly, then add to teh Scripture "God elects based on what He will see they will do in the future of their own free will". Can you show me where it says or strongly hints of that?

We are dead in trespasses and sins. We are slaves to sin, there is no good thing in our human nature. From the sole of the foot to the crown of the head their is no soundness in man. OUr good deeds are filthy rags. We were conceived in iniquity and born in sin! As Gentiles we were part of the race that were without hope and without God in the world.

I suppose you are one of those who believes God has a plan b for those who never hear the gospel?

Correct. God planned His Son. Not you. If God chose YOU, then you're more important than Jesus Christ. God choices have merit.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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The Gospel bridges the heavenly to the natural. The Gospel message presents heavenly truth in simple/common/earthly messages to appeal to humanity. Calvinists often ignore this fact. They pretend there must be something "special" that takes place for a person to accept that message when the message itself is the Grace of God in Jesus Christ.

It is like telling someone that is dying of thirst, "Here is water" but "you can't drink"......

Well there is something special that takes place---FAITH! Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word!

But to the intellect- it is foolishness
To the religious, a stumbling block

Man wants to be able to say they did something of themselves to contribute to their salvation- Satans lie!

We can't turn to Jesus unless the Father compels us.
We cannot perceive spiritual truth until we are reborn! As Jesus said, that which is the flesh, is flesh!
 

Ronald Nolette

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You can't show you were chosen from the Scriptures. There is only ONE individual that was chosen. That is Jesus Christ. All others are chosen in Him. It is corporal choice of an unnamed group. That group only has life in the singular name of Jesus Christ.


Yes I can!
 

Ronald Nolette

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Correct. God planned His Son. Not you. If God chose YOU, then you're more important than Jesus Christ. God choices have merit.


Well that is you trying to salvage a lousy argument.

Jesus chose disciples! Jesus chose teh Apostles.

Ephesians 2 shows we were chosen from before the foundation of the world!

We were predestined! Marked off in advance.

god choosing us is not the same as God choosing Jesus. Jesus is god! So that was not a choice, but the determinate counsel of God from before Creation!
 

praise_yeshua

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Well there is something special that takes place---FAITH! Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word!

But to the intellect- it is foolishness
To the religious, a stumbling block

Man wants to be able to say they did something of themselves to contribute to their salvation- Satans lie!

We can't turn to Jesus unless the Father compels us.
We cannot perceive spiritual truth until we are reborn! As Jesus said, that which is the flesh, is flesh!

You're not telling me anything I haven't heard many many times. You're not paying attention to what I said. You're falling into the trap that is "Calvin"....

The Gospel tells man exactly what to do. You can't ignore this. Calvin was full of malarkey.
 

praise_yeshua

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Well that is you trying to salvage a lousy argument.

Jesus chose disciples! Jesus chose teh Apostles.

Ephesians 2 shows we were chosen from before the foundation of the world!

We were predestined! Marked off in advance.

god choosing us is not the same as God choosing Jesus. Jesus is god! So that was not a choice, but the determinate counsel of God from before Creation!

Ephesians 2 says a group was chosen in Jesus Christ. That doesn't establish individual election as you're teaching it.
 

PinSeeker

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Calvinist Point #1 - Total Depravity (or Total Inability):

This point is basically saying that man is spiritually dead and has no ability to come to the god of Calvinism on his own without a regeneration from the god of Calvinism in order to make the person alive to be able to be be illuminated, and be saved.
Three is a reason why this is point number one ~ more than one reason, actually: First, this point was Calvin's refutation of Jacobus Arminius's first point, which was Biblically incorrect. As an aside, there are really not "five points," to Calvinism at all, but rather five responses to Arminius's five postulations regarding Biblical soteriology. But secondly, a misunderstanding of the natural human condition before a righteous and holy God ~ which Arminius and Pelagius centuries before were guilty of ~ precipitates, inevitably, misunderstanding of the four that follow. Such was the case with Pelagius, Arminius, and all those that have come after.

First, it may surprise you that I believe in “Original Sin” (Not the Calvinistic version). I believe “Original Sin” is essentially saying that sin and or the sin nature has tainted humanity after Adam's fall.
That's great, but what follows this is... well, not so much:

...the fallen nature that comes from Adam is not a total corruption of the human will whereby they cannot respond to God.
A couple of things to this:

1. It is not about the will. It is about human nature, the state of the heart. This drives the will, but is not the will itself. The person will act, of his own free will and accord, according to the state of his heart, his nature. Adam and Even came, that terrible day described in Genesis 3, to "know sin," which means not merely that they cognitively "knew what sin was," but became intimately acquainted with it and even a slave to it, to unrighteousness. This cannot be soft-pedaled. The second thing here closely follows:

2. Adam and Eve died on that very day that they fell from grace, just as God told them they would in Genesis 2:17. They did not physically die, but they did die, so we have to understand what this death really was (is). Adam and Eve became, that very day, dead (spiritually dead) in their sin. This is a very important concept, this death in sin. We are in this state from death as Adam was the federal head of the human race and Eve the mother of all the living.​

THEREFORE:

We have free will to come to Christ on His terms (According to His Word), whereby God will then regenerate us (or convert us) (i.e. to born again spiritually) in order for us to be a new creature in Christ...
We do have free will to come to Christ on His terms, but again, our will is not the issue. The issue is the state of our heart, of our very nature. Spiritually, we are dead in sin, slaves to unrighteousness. As a result, if we remain in this state, we will not (not, woodenly speaking, "can not") come to Christ at all, because we will remain wholly inclined against doing so. This regeneration, this conversion, this new birth of the Spirit, must take place so that then we will be alive to God. We must be a new creature in Christ so that then we will, quite freely, come to Christ. Ezekiel a graphic visual of how this works:

"Thus says the Lord GOD: 'I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses... '"

"The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; it was full of bones. And he led me around among them, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley, and behold, they were very dry. And He said to me, 'Son of man, can these bones live?' And I answered, 'O Lord GOD, you know.' Then he said to me, 'Prophesy over these bones, and say to them, O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live, and you shall know that I am the LORD.' So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I prophesied, there was a sound, and behold, a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to its bone. And I looked, and behold, there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them. But there was no breath in them. Then he said to me, 'Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, "Thus says the Lord GOD: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live.”' So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army. Then He said to me, 'Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, "Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are indeed cut off." Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD.'"

(Ezekiel 36:24-29; 37:1-14).​

And Paul and Peter both testify to this:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Paul, Ephesians 2:4-10).

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (Peter, 1 Peter 1:3-5).​

There is no mistaking that this regeneration, this being born again of the Spirit, comes before anything we can say or do to somehow cause it to happen or merit it in any way. We might as well say we asked our earthly parents to give birth to us, a ridiculous thought altogether. And as I said, underestimating the natural human condition precipitates a wrong understanding of the other four points:

  • God's election must be unconditional, because nothing we say or do can precipitate our being brought to life, so we cannot meet any condition.
  • Jesus's atonement cannot be unlimited, because we know ~ because Jesus is very clear ~ that some ~ those on His left at the judgment, whom He never knew ~ will remain in this state of spiritual death, which, again, we are all in from birth. To clarify, though, it is unlimited in the sense that it is sufficient for all, but it is limited in the sense that it is effectual only for some, God's elect
  • God's particular grace toward His elect must be irresistable, because we will have been brought from spiritual death to spiritual life. Once we have been given this new life in the Spirit, we cannot make ourselves spiritually dead again ~ because we cannot kill the Spirit, Who Himself is God, dwelling in us.
  • And we will persevere, for the same reason; the Spirit, Who is unquenchable, will sustain us and sanctify us and bring us to perfection at the day of Christ.

The grass withers, and the flowers fade, but the Word of our God endures forever. Thanks be to God.

Grace and peace to you.
 
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