"If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

[GEN2REV]

The old covenant is not perfect! The new covenant of Christ is perfect!

Then Psalms 19:7 must be referring to the 10 Commandments only. Hmm.

Gen2Rev, Sir, you still going to claim the first covenant is perfect? Not according to scripture!!!!

I already proved that the OT says it is. So go ahead and show how the OT is wrong in saying that the Law of the Lord is perfect here. Psalms 19:7 That's OT, ... longggg before Christ came. You've got your work cut out for you.

You Sabbatarians claim only part of the old law is to be kept today.

All of the 10 Commandments are to be kept, .... as always. God never said He would write the sacrificial ordinances on our hearts. Hebrews 9:10 tells us those were only imposed until the time of reformation (Christ's advent).

When Christ came, He changed everything (reformation) with the arrival of His kingdom. During which time, He assigned Apostles, obeyed all of the 10 Commandments as an example to us, set up His church upon Peter's revelation of Christ's identity as the Son of God - and His kingdom (the church) began; as they are one and the same. Matthew 16:18-19

Then He died on the Cross defeating the devil with His perfect sacrifice and we are now to follow in His footsteps and obey all the Commandments of God the Father as good Christians. (Christian = follower of Christ)

 

[Ferris Bueller]

We see here all the way back in Exodus and Deuteronomy that the 10 Commandments were placed inside the Ark of the Covenant which was a symbol of the heart of man

The Ark of the Covenant is better understood as a symbol of Christ.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

One Law was permanent, one was not. One was written in Stone, one was not.

I don't see in scripture where it says that the law being written on stone means it is permanent. What I do see written in scripture is the contrast between the law being written on hardened stone, and the law being written on soft pliable flesh. And I believe that is where we are to derive the significance of the law being written on stone. In the old covenant the commands of God are received on hardened hearts of stone. In the New Covenant the commands of God are received on tender hearts of flesh.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

When we obey the 10 Commandments, our soul is gradually converted to the image of Christ.

In the New Covenant, conversion comes before obedience. Obedience increases as we are conformed to the image of Christ as God works that in us by the Holy Spirit. Law keeping has no power to solicit the work of the Holy Spirit. Faith does that.

"5Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because you hear and believe?" Galatians 3:5​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

A covenant is forever.

But a covenant can become obsolete and unneeded. Which is exactly what happened to the covenant of law. We are no longer required to relate to God through a covenant of law. Because a new and better covenant has been instituted that makes the old obsolete and unneeded now. What the law sought to do in bringing man close to God has been replaced with the new way of drawing close to God - faith in God. The way Abraham, our example, drew near to God in covenant.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The Law of Christ is the Law of the Father.

Except that Christ did not need one iota of the sacrificial and ceremonial law. And so I think the law of Christ is the law of Moses minus all the laws for reconciling fallen man to God the father in worship. Christ doesn't need any of those. And we, being made perfect in Christ, don't need them either. We are already brought near to God in worship through our faith in Christ. You don't have to keep a law of worship to do what has already been done for you, perfectly and forever, through your faith in Christ. That's why that old way is obsolete and unneeded now. And so it has been set aside in favor of the new. Not broken. Not cast down and trampled on. Simply not needed anymore.

 

[GEN2REV]

I don't see in scripture where it says that the law being written on stone means it is permanent. What I do see written in scripture is the contrast between the law being written on hardened stone, and the law being written on soft pliable flesh. And I believe that is where we are to derive the significance of the law being written on stone. In the old covenant the commands of God are received on hardened hearts of stone. In the New Covenant the commands of God are received on tender hearts of flesh.

Fair enough. Let's go with that.

We are given a new heart and a new spirit?
Ezekiel 36:26

So, it's our hearts and our spirit that is transformed; not the Commandments.

And now they are no longer Law - because we obey them out of love for God.

Are you under Law to love and provide for your children? Hopefully not; you likely do it out of love. There is no Law binding you to do it.

It is the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, that gives us the ability to obey.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law."
Galatians 5:22-24

But a covenant can become obsolete and unneeded. Which is exactly what happened to the covenant of law. We are no longer required to relate to God through a covenant of law. Because a new and better covenant has been instituted that makes the old obsolete and unneeded now. What the law sought to do in bringing man close to God has been replaced with the new way of drawing close to God - faith in God. The way Abraham, our example, drew near to God in covenant.

The New Covenant is the new heart, Spirit and willingness to obey. What could be better than that?

Except that Christ did not need one iota of the sacrificial and ceremonial law. And so I think the law of Christ is the law of Moses minus all the laws for reconciling fallen man to God the father in worship. Christ doesn't need any of those. And we, being made perfect in Christ, don't need them either. We are already brought near to God in worship through our faith in Christ. You don't have to keep a law of worship to do what has already been done for you, perfectly and forever, through your faith in Christ. That's why that old way is obsolete and unneeded now. And so it has been set aside in favor of the new. Not broken. Not cast down and trampled on. Simply not needed anymore.

I couldn't agree more and everything posted by me above coincides perfectly.

 

[Titus]

I already proved that the OT says it is. So go ahead and show how the OT is wrong in saying that the Law of the Lord is perfect here. Psalms 19:7 That's OT, ... longggg before Christ came. You've got your work cut out for you.

The Old testament is not perfect.

Psalm 19:7 is correct.

Hebrews 8:7 is also correct,
For if the first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

There is no contradictions in Gods inerrant word!

The writer of Hebrews says the first covenant was weak and unprofitable.
And earthly in nature, Hebrews 7:18.

He underscores the faulty nature of the first covenant.

Now it is true that every work the Lord does is perfect, hence Psalm 19:7, when viewed in connection with the purpose which God means it to serve! In other words;]: It was perfect in its purpose for it fullfilled Gods will to bring about a greater covenant!

In this sense, the first covenant was faultless.
But when viewed in the light in which the Jewish nation generally considered it, as the saving economy, in all the extant of that concept, it was not faultless!

Why?
It could not expiate moral guilt.
It could not wash away moral sins.
It could not justify.
It could not sanctify.
It could not save!
Its sacrifices could not take away sin.
It could not cleanse the conscience ie make the man perfect.
In this sense, it made nothing perfect.

Had it been faultless then there would have never been the need for a new perfect covenant!

As the Hebrew writer penned,
...For if the first covenant had been faultless(perfect), then no place would have been sought for a second.

So, this is How Psalm 19:7 and Hebrews chapter 8 are not contradictory.

You Sir are cursed,
Galatians 3:10
For as many as are the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, Cursed is everyone who does not continue IN ALL THINGS which are written in the book of the law, to do them.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

The Old testament is not perfect.

Psalm 19:7 is correct.

Hebrews 8:7 is also correct,
For if the first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

There is no contradictions in Gods inerrant word!

The writer of Hebrews says the first covenant was weak and unprofitable.
And earthly in nature, Hebrews 7:18.

He underscores the faulty nature of the first covenant.

Now it is true that every work the Lord does is perfect, hence Psalm 19:7, when viewed in connection with the purpose which God means it to serve! In other words;]: It was perfect in its purpose for it fullfilled Gods will to bring about a greater covenant!

In this sense, the first covenant was faultless.
But when viewed in the light in which the Jewish nation generally considered it, as the saving economy, in all the extant of that concept, it was not faultless!

Why?
It could not expiate moral guilt.
It could not wash away moral sins.
It could not justify.
It could not sanctify.
It could not save!
Its sacrifices could not take away sin.
It could not cleanse the conscience ie make the man perfect.
In this sense, it made nothing perfect.

Had it been faultless then there would have never been the need for a new perfect covenant!

As the Hebrew writer penned,
...For if the first covenant had been faultless(perfect), then no place would have been sought for a second.

So, this is How Psalm 19:7 and Hebrews chapter 8 are not contradictory.

You Sir are cursed,
Galatians 3:10
For as many as are the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, Cursed is everyone who does not continue IN ALL THINGS which are written in the book of the law, to do them.

The Law was Perfect in its “ nature” , but Imperfect in its results....It was never given to redeem Sinners ....it was given to REVEAL SIN ....and that it did...The problem with the Law was that it had “ NO POWER TO SAVE!” That “ POWER” is found nowhere else but in Paul’s “My Gospel” —- the Gospel Given to Him by Jesus personally...Find it in 1Cor15:1-4.....

 

[Titus]

Then Psalms 19:7 must be referring to the 10 Commandments only. Hmm.I already proved that the OT says it is. So go ahead and show how the OT is wrong in saying that the Law of the Lord is perfect here. Psalms 19:7 That's OT, ... longggg before Christ came. You've got your work cut out for you.All of the 10 Commandments are to be kept, .... as always. God never said He would write the sacrificial ordinances on our hearts. Hebrews 9:10 tells us those were only imposed until the time of reformation (Christ's advent).

When Christ came, He changed everything (reformation) with the arrival of His kingdom. During which time, He assigned Apostles, obeyed all of the 10 Commandments as an example to us, set up His church upon Peter's revelation of Christ's identity as the Son of God - and His kingdom (the church) began; as they are one and the same. Matthew 16:18-19

Then He died on the Cross defeating the devil with His perfect sacrifice and we are now to follow in His footsteps and obey all the Commandments of God the Father as good Christians. (Christian = follower of Christ)

HALLELUJAH!!! We agree on something! Wonderful,
You are 100% correct that the church and the kingdom are one in the same!
You are also correct that the kingdom has already come.
All today that are in the Lords church, are in His spiritual kingdom.

Love you, Gen2Rev

 

[Titus]

The Law was Perfect in its “ nature” , but Imperfect in its results....It was never given to redeem Sinners ....it was given to REVEAL SIN ....and that it did...The problem with the Law was that it had “ NO POWER TO SAVE!” That “ POWER” is found nowhere else but in Paul’s “My Gospel” —- the Gospel Given to Him by Jesus personally...Find it in 1Cor15:1-4.....

Love you, BloodBought 1953, good night.

 

[mailmandan]

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Then He died on the Cross defeating the devil with His perfect sacrifice and we are now to follow in His footsteps and obey all the Commandments of God the Father as good Christians. (Christian = follower of Christ)


Its just like Paul wrote—- “ Did you receive God's Holy Spirit by obeying the Commandments Of Moses or by hearing about Christ and putting your Faith in Him to Save you ? How can you be so Foolish? Having begun your New Life with Faith in Christ, do you really think that now you are going to made Complete by your own works and your efforts to keep the Law? Did all your experiences mean nothing at all? So did God give you His Spirit and cause you to perform Miracles because you kept the Law or was it because you Believed what you heard about Christ and you put your Faith in HIM? Clearly, no man is Justified by Keeping the Law —- the people that God accepts are the ones that LIVE BY FAITH!”

If it is your contention that we “ should” follow in the Footsteps Of Christ and perhaps “ Try” to obey ALL of the Commandments Of God as a Natural result of having the Holy Spirit in us - “ then” you have something!

If you are saying that the Born- Again, Saved Believer “MUST” keep the Commands of God in order to “ Be” Saved, or “ Stay” Saved , you are in Serious Error.....If one tries to “ keep the Law” for his Justification , He is under the CURSE of the Law—- He has to keep it Perfectly 24/7 , and if he breaks just “ one”—— he has broken them all....

Please clarify your Stand.....Are the Commandments something that we “ Should” try to keep or are they something we “ MUST” keep ? The Bible says clearly that Believers are “ DEAD to the Law” —— what do YOU say?

 

[GEN2REV]

The Old testament is not perfect.

Psalm 19:7 is correct.

Hebrews 8:7 is also correct,
For if the first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

There is no contradictions in Gods inerrant word!

The writer of Hebrews says the first covenant was weak and unprofitable.
And earthly in nature, Hebrews 7:18.

He underscores the faulty nature of the first covenant.

Now it is true that every work the Lord does is perfect, hence Psalm 19:7, when viewed in connection with the purpose which God means it to serve! In other words;]: It was perfect in its purpose for it fullfilled Gods will to bring about a greater covenant!

In this sense, the first covenant was faultless.
But when viewed in the light in which the Jewish nation generally considered it, as the saving economy, in all the extant of that concept, it was not faultless!

Why?
It could not expiate moral guilt.
It could not wash away moral sins.
It could not justify.
It could not sanctify.
It could not save!
Its sacrifices could not take away sin.
It could not cleanse the conscience ie make the man perfect.
In this sense, it made nothing perfect.

Had it been faultless then there would have never been the need for a new perfect covenant!

As the Hebrew writer penned,
...For if the first covenant had been faultless(perfect), then no place would have been sought for a second.

So, this is How Psalm 19:7 and Hebrews chapter 8 are not contradictory.

You Sir are cursed,
Galatians 3:10
For as many as are the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, Cursed is everyone who does not continue IN ALL THINGS which are written in the book of the law, to do them.

Charades and mockery.

So, the 10 Commandments were perfect until they weren't perfect. Then they were done away with.

Now the abbreviated Commandments are perfect ... and alll that is what Psalms 19:7 was really saying. Right?

Okayyy ... buddy.

 

[GEN2REV]

HALLELUJAH!!! We agree on something! Wonderful,
You are 100% correct that the church and the kingdom are one in the same!
You are also correct that the kingdom has already come.
All today that are in the Lords church, are in His spiritual kingdom.

And that kingdom is founded on obeying the 10 Commandments ... out of our love for God, not out of obligation - nor out of requirement for Salvation.

 

[Jim B]

And that kingdom is founded on obeying the 10 Commandments ... out of our love for God, not out of obligation - nor out of requirement for Salvation.

The 10 commandments are for those who live by the Old Covenant, as given to Moses. Now that Christ has come they are not in effect for Christians. If you put yourself back under the OT law you are denying the salvific work of Christ.

"But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code." Romans 7:6

Nothing can be clearer than this verse.

 

[GEN2REV]

The 10 commandments are for those who live by the Old Covenant, as given to Moses. Now that Christ has come they are not in effect for Christians. If you put yourself back under the OT law you are denying the salvific work of Christ.

"But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code." Romans 7:6

Nothing can be clearer than this verse.

Yep.

We're not under law anymore.

Christ and the Father, inside us as the Holy Spirit (John 14:21-23), put the 10 Commandments in our hearts - for us to keep out of our love for them; just like Jesus did for His Father. John 15:10

 

[Titus]

Charades and mockery.

So, the 10 Commandments were perfect until they weren't perfect. Then they were done away with.

Now the abbreviated Commandments are perfect ... and alll that is what Psalms 19:7 was really saying. Right?

Okayyy ... buddy.

Nowhere did I say the 10 commandments were perfect and became imperfect,

You did not hear that teaching from me.

Hebrews 8:7 teaches the old law is not perfect.

Again it is perfect in the sense it served its purpose that God designed it to serve.
It worked perfectly for its purpose.

You have to ignore Hebrews 8:7 to claim the ten commandments are perfect in themselves

 

[Titus]

Yep.

We're not under law anymore.

Christ and the Father, inside us as the Holy Spirit (John 14:21-23), put the 10 Commandments in our hearts - for us to keep out of our love for them; just like Jesus did for His Father. John 15:10

John 14:23 Jesus is not teaching the old covenant commandments. He is teaching His new law, His will and testament. The second perfect covenant.

Galatians 6:2
Bear one another's burdens and so fullfil the law of Christ.

Everything the apostles taught as gospel was Jesus' new covenant,
Luke 24:49

John 16:13
However when He, the Spirit of truth has come, He will guide you into all truth.

-15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take care of Mine and declare it to you.

The apostles gave us the new covenant law of Christ.
When they gave commandments they were not teaching the Mosaic law.

Gen2Rev, if we are not under law today then how do Christian's or the lost sin today?

 

[GEN2REV]

Nowhere did I say the 10 commandments were perfect and became imperfect,

You did not hear that teaching from me.

Hebrews 8:7 teaches the old law is not perfect.

Again it is perfect in the sense it served its purpose that God designed it to serve.
It worked perfectly for its purpose.

You have to ignore Hebrews 8:7 to claim the ten commandments are perfect in themselves

All Hebrews 8:7 is saying is that the old way of obeying the Commandments out of our own strength, and sacrificing animals when we slip up, was a flawed system.

The New Covenant, in Christ's blood, allows atonement for those very same sins by atoning for all those sins committed prior to being saved, and putting the Commandments on our heart via the indwelling of Christ who empowers us to obey them by His power, and giving us the new option of confession and repentance - as opposed to the old way of killing innocent animals to atone for our transgressions.

That's the difference.

10 Commandments are still obeyed.