Paul taught that revelation 20:4 is a present reality

[ewq1938]

I will just let the scriptures in my opening post in this thread speak for itself.

While Paul was alive he considered himself seated in the heavenly realms.

Thus Revelation 20:4

Not remotely related to Revelation 20. Paul wasn't dead as the beheaded saints are.

 

[Truth7t7]

I will just let the scriptures in my opening post in this thread speak for itself.

While Paul was alive he considered himself seated in the heavenly realms.

Thus Revelation 20:4

I Will just stand on my post, the "Second Coming" is seen in Daniel 7:10

Marty you have denied the "Second Coming" is seen in Daniel 7:10

Jesus Returns In Fire And Judgement, at the "Second Coming"

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him:

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him:

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him:

Daniel 7:10KJV
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

 

[Truth7t7]

Not remotely related to Revelation 20. Paul wasn't dead as the beheaded saints are.

I Agree

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You haven't corrected anything I said... so far, because I agree Jesus is... to inherit David's throne. That has NOT happened yet, because David's throne is an EARTHLY THRONE, not a Heavenly one.

I showed you scripture which teaches that He inherited David's throne upon His resurrection. Is Acts 2:29-36 in your Bible?

Here is proof WHEN Jesus comes to inherit David's throne...

Matt 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJV

Where does this say anything about David's throne? Jesus sits on His throne now. Scripture is very clear that He rules now at the right hand of the Father and He will judge all people when He returns (Matthew 25:31-46) and that is what Matthew 19:28 is about. But, that does not mean He is not sitting on His throne now. He just hasn't judged the world yet. But, He has authority now over all things, as taught in Matthew 28:18 and Ephesians 1:19-23.

You make same error in reading comprehension in that Acts 2 Scripture that many fake preachers make...

Acts 2:29-35
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

What's the subject so far? The patriarch David.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on His throne;

It does say "His throne", pointing to God's throne, however a little farther down here it points out specifically that Jesus would sit on the RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER'S THRONE. The Father's Throne is NOT David's throne. So you have to think about that. Can't just say, "there it is" and omit the later Acts 2:33-35 verses.

Your doctrinal bias is shining through here. When it says "his throne", it's talking about David's throne, not God's throne. All you have to do to determine which throne is being referenced is to look up what promise God made to David relating to a throne. Why did you not bother doing that? God never made a promise to David that Jesus would sit on God's throne, He made a promise to David that Jesus would inherit David's throne. You are completely ignoring that fact because of your extreme doctrinal bias.

Psalm 132:11 The Lord swore an oath to David, a sure oath he will not revoke: “One of your own descendants I will place on your throne.

Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Clearly, the one with the reading comprehension problem here is you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, it is GREAT ERROR to assume that Revelation 20 mention of the "first resurrection" has already happened today!

That idea is completely OPPOSITE of the meaning of that Scripture. And yes, I HAVE READ IT very carefully, like it is written. But by your "carefully" idea you really mean it has to be twisted and conformed to the doctrines of men that you keep, and not how the Scripture is actually written. Like I said to someone else, if this were a study in electronics and you did that with the electronic textbook, you'd probably hurt yourself or others. And just because you may see fake preachers do that is no excuse for you doing it too, if you truly believe Jesus Christ and His Holy Writ.

You're all talk and no substance. Scripture says the first resurrection was Christ's resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20;22, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5). So, you have to start with that knowledge and go from there. How does someone have part in Christ's resurrection? Spiritually, we have part in His resurrection when we become saved and go from being spiritually dead in our sins to spiritually alive in Christ (Eph 2:1-6).

You asking me what the "second death" is? Revelation 20:14 tells you what the "second death" is, doesn't it? What does it say? Do you not believe what it says as written?...

I did not ask you what the second death is. You appear to have serious reading comprehension problems. I said this: Tell me, does the second death have power over us now or over the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven? No. Do we have to be bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have power over us? No. Are we not already priests of God and of Christ? Yes, we are, as the following indicates (I then referenced Revelation 1:5-6).

If you actually read what I said, then you should see that I wasn't asking you what the second death is. I'm asking if the second death currently has power over us or over the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven? It doesn't, right? And then I asked if we need to be bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have power over us? Since it doesn't have power over us now, then the answer to that question is no, right? Please address these questions instead of making false accusations that I'm asking what the second death is even though we all know that it's described in Revelation 20:14-15.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is a complete fallacy. While there are a few parenthetical passages which need to be placed in the correct order, the bulk of Revelation is purely chronological. Thus we have seven consecutive seals, then the seventh seal has seven consecutive trumpet judgments, then the seventh trumpet judgment has seven vial judgments. Each chapter also follows in chronological sequence, so chapters 6-18 comprise the periods of judgment, then chapter 19 through 22 are chronological. And even those are clearly in the future.

How can the seven vials all follow the seventh trumpet when at the seventh trumpet "The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small" (Revelation 11:15,18)? The time for judging the dead and for rewarding God's people occurs AFTER the thousand years and Satan's little season, as seen in Revelation 20-21. How do you reconcile that with your doctrine?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Verse 9 is not the second coming. Revelation 19 is and there's no fire.

There's no fire mentioned in Revelation 19 because it's all figurative language. Unless you think Jesus will come down from heaven while literally riding on a white horse with a literal sword coming out of His mouth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sure but fire is not a weapon he uses to kill. He uses a symbolic sword.

None of the verses posted are about the second coming either.

Here are the correct verses:

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


No fire killing anyone!

First, you correctly acknowledge that the sword is symbolic and then you try to say that He doesn't use fire to kill anyone? Just because it doesn't mention Him using fire there doesn't prove anything. The literal method of destruction He will use is not referenced there at all, so how can you use this passage to prove anything about how it will be done literally? It's only described symbolically there. We have to look at other scripture like 2 Peter 3:10-12 and 2 Thess 1:7-9 to see what the literal method of destruction will be and it clearly will be fire.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A stream of fire not killing anyone doesn't support your false belief that Jesus uses fire to kill people at the second coming. Daniel 7:10 is judgment day not the second coming anyways. You will literally use anything to defend this defenseless doctrine.

Matthew 25:31-46 shows that judgment day will occur at His second coming, so you are apparently not taking that into account.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened."

God has been sitting on the throne since the beginning. The books have been opened since the beginning. Thousands have surrounded the throne since the beginning. The one like the son of man has been able to approach the throne since the very beginning. How do you know exactly what point, in time, Daniel is viewing this constant ongoing phenomenon?

Kingdoms have come and gone since at least the Flood. Who knows what thrones meant prior to the Flood?

Are you trying to say that what is described in Revelation 20:11-15, which is the same event as described in Daniel 7:9-11, has been happening since the beginning?

 

[Davy]

I showed you scripture which teaches that He inherited David's throne upon His resurrection. Is Acts 2:29-36 in your Bible?

See, you're trying to be a smart-elec already with that last statement.

What's your problem with that Acts 2:29-36 Scripture?

Simple, you have NOT actually studied it thoroughly. I must then assume... you have only listened to some preacher talk about it, who did not cover it all line upon line...

Acts 2:29-35
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

There's God promise to David, and that Jesus would inherit David's throne (which still is an EARTHLY throne by the way).

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in hell, neither His flesh did see corruption.

Who's soul was not to be left in hell, nor flesh saw corruption? Not David, but Lord Jesus! So the subject has NOW changed to about Jesus' resurrection...

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, He hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, "The LORD said unto my Lord, 'Sit thou on My right hand,
35 Until I make Thy foes Thy footstool.'"
KJV

So apparently, that Acts 2:29-36 Scripture is NOT in YOUR Bible, because you obviously have failed to read and heed it!

Where does this say anything about David's throne? Jesus sits on His throne now. Scripture is very clear that He rules now at the right hand of the Father and He will judge all people when He returns (Matthew 25:31-46) and that is what Matthew 19:28 is about. But, that does not mean He is not sitting on His throne now. He just hasn't judged the world yet. But, He has authority now over all things, as taught in Matthew 28:18 and Ephesians 1:19-23.

Your doctrinal bias is shining through here. When it says "his throne", it's talking about David's throne, not God's throne. All you have to do to determine which throne is being referenced is to look up what promise God made to David relating to a throne. Why did you not bother doing that? God never made a promise to David that Jesus would sit on God's throne, He made a promise to David that Jesus would inherit David's throne. You are completely ignoring that fact because of your extreme doctrinal bias.
...

Just more mouthing by one who DOES NOT care to actually READ AND HEED their Bible. GO FISH!

 

[Davy]

You're all talk and no substance. Scripture says the first resurrection was Christ's resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20;22, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5). So, you have to start with that knowledge and go from there. How does someone have part in Christ's resurrection? Spiritually, we have part in His resurrection when we become saved and go from being spiritually dead in our sins to spiritually alive in Christ (Eph 2:1-6).

I did not ask you what the second death is. You appear to have serious reading comprehension problems. I said this: Tell me, does the second death have power over us now or over the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven? No. Do we have to be bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have power over us? No. Are we not already priests of God and of Christ? Yes, we are, as the following indicates (I then referenced Revelation 1:5-6).

If you actually read what I said, then you should see that I wasn't asking you what the second death is. I'm asking if the second death currently has power over us or over the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven? It doesn't, right? And then I asked if we need to be bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have power over us? Since it doesn't have power over us now, then the answer to that question is no, right? Please address these questions instead of making false accusations that I'm asking what the second death is even though we all know that it's described in Revelation 20:14-15.

There is NO TRUTH in your tongue. Welcome to my IGNORE LIST.

 

[Enoch111]

How can the seven vials all follow the seventh trumpet when at the seventh trumpet "The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small" (Revelation 11:15,18)?

Revelation 15 is a series of events after the 7th trumpet. Thus we see seven angels with seven vials of God's wrath. What is stated in Rev 11:15 looks beyond Rev 15-20, and speaks of the kingdoms of the world being replaced by Kingdom of God. Rev 11:18 corresponds to Rev 15-18 and gives an overview.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

See, you're trying to be a smart-elec already with that last statement.

Don't waste your time with these kinds of comments. I'm not talking in any way that you haven't talked yourself many times.

What's your problem with that Acts 2:29-36 Scripture?

Simple, you have NOT actually studied it thoroughly. I must then assume... you have only listened to some preacher talk about it, who did not cover it all line upon line...

Acts 2:29-35
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

There's God promise to David, and that Jesus would inherit David's throne (which still is an EARTHLY throne by the way).

You said in your other post that "his throne" represented God's throne, so now you're contradicting yourself.

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in hell, neither His flesh did see corruption.

Who's soul was not to be left in hell, nor flesh saw corruption? Not David, but Lord Jesus! So the subject has NOW changed to about Jesus' resurrection...

When did I say otherwise? What Peter was indicating here is that Jesus was the one who God promised would sit on David's throne and the way that happened was by way of His resurrection. The text indicates that God RAISED UP Christ to sit on David's throne by way of being RAISED UP from the dead.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, He hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, "The LORD said unto my Lord, 'Sit thou on My right hand,
35 Until I make Thy foes Thy footstool.'"
KJV

So apparently, that Acts 2:29-36 Scripture is NOT in YOUR Bible, because you obviously have failed to read and heed it!

You are completely ignoring the part which indicates that Christ was raised up to David's throne by way of His resurrection. You can't accuse me of failing to read it when you are the one blatantly ignoring what it says.

Just more mouthing by one who DOES NOT care to actually READ AND HEED their Bible. GO FISH!

You're all talk. You have no scripture to back up your views. What do you do when your view gets challenged? Run and hide and put me on ignore. That's all you can do because you know you don't have any scripture to refute what I'm saying. You have to resort to blatantly twisting passages like Acts 2:29-36 to keep your doctrine afloat. It's interesting that you only quote it up til verse 35. Verse 36 is important to include because it says God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. Him having already been made Lord indicates that He is on the throne now.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 15 is a series of events after the 7th trumpet. Thus we see seven angels with seven vials of God's wrath. What is stated in Rev 11:15 looks beyond Rev 15-20, and speaks of the kingdoms of the world being replaced by Kingdom of God. Rev 11:18 corresponds to Rev 15-18 and gives an overview.

No, that can't be right. It very specifically says that the seventh trumpet signals that it's the time of the dead being judged. Revelation 20:11-15 describes the dead being judged and that occurs after the thousand years and Satan's little season.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is NO TRUTH in your tongue. Welcome to my IGNORE LIST.

Translation: You have nothing to refute what I'm saying, so you'd rather run and hide than admit that your doctrine can't be supported by scripture. I showed you scripture which clearly shows that God promised

 

[ewq1938]

There's no fire mentioned in Revelation 19 because it's all figurative language.

There is no fire mentioned because Christ doesn't use fire in any sense against his enemies.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is no fire mentioned because Christ doesn't use fire in any sense against his enemies.

And what is your evidence to back that up? You should know better than to just make claims without backing them up with scripture. What do you think will be the literal method He uses to destroy His enemies at His return if not by fire?

In 2nd Peter 3:10-13 it talks about the fulfillment of the promise of His second coming and it talks about the heavens and earth being burned up in accordance with that promise. So, with that in mind, how can you say that He doesn't use fire in any sense against His enemies?

And what do you make of the following?

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

 

[ewq1938]

First, you correctly acknowledge that the sword is symbolic and then you try to say that He doesn't use fire to kill anyone? Just because it doesn't mention Him using fire there doesn't prove anything.

It proves everything. To say he uses fire there is pure eisegesis.

 

[ewq1938]

Matthew 25:31-46 shows that judgment day will occur at His second coming, so you are apparently not taking that into account.

lol, Premillennialism knows there is a judgement and a resurrection at the second coming. We also know there is a second resurrection and judgment after the thousand years so you are apparently not taking that into account.