Timing of the abomination of desolation

[Randy Kluth]

No, he didn't. Jesus never said he would come in any sense when the temple was destroyed. He didn't need to.

So you don't believe Jesus was God? Or, you don't believe God showed up, via His word, to bring judgment upon Jerusalem in 70 AD?

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, that is not what he said. He said this:

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Another use of "all these". Both here and in verse 33 you don't adhere to "all these" but limit it down. Not one thing but all the building of the temple complex which includes any walls.

The retaining wall supporting the plaza is hardly a temple structure! The temple had buildings associated with it, walkways, porches, courtyards, overhangs, etc. But the retaining wall was not a temple building, period.

Luke 17.30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

I shared this earlier, and I know that you will claim this happens at the 2nd Coming. The problem with this is, people aren't going to come down from their rooftops in the last days! This was a phenomenon of Jesus' day, and Jesus was speaking to the people of his own time. They would see "his revelation" in the judgment to come, when Roman armies would lay siege to Jerusalem, and destroy the temple.

Reference to "all these" buildings bears no connection to "all these things" in vs. 33.

Matt 24.1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Matt 24.33 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Use of the same or similar words in different contexts means different things! In vs. 1, reference is to the buildings of the temple. In vs. 33, reference is to events that will happen. Not the same things! Different context!

But look at vs. 35. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Jesus is saying not just that God's word is going to show up at the temple destruction event, but *his word* will show up as well, along with *his revelation.* You are quite wrong in everything you said.

It's very important what Jesus is saying here. He is saying that the temple is temporal, and is soon to pass away. This was shocking to the Jews who had heard, "This law is for all your generations."

But Jesus was saying that his generation was failing God's Law, and that the temple law would pass away, together with its temple and covenant. In its place, *Jesus' word* would stand forever. And it was *that word* that caused Jesus to be revealed in the act of destroying the temple. It was not Jesus' actual appearance in the flesh, but only his appearance in the form of *his word.*

So let me be perfectly clear. I'm *not* saying Jesus was speaking here of his 2nd Coming, nor of any eschatological event. But he was saying that he would appear as the heavenly judge in this act of destroying the temple.

 

[Truth7t7]

John 2 would be a long time before the timeframe of Matthew 24. The temple mentioned there is not what was being said in John 2.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, we're all at the temple visit, at the time of the passover,when Jesus threw the money changers out, Same time period the Olivet discourse was given

 

[ewq1938]

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, we're all at the temple visit, at the time of the passover,when Jesus threw the money changers out, Same time period the Olivet discourse was given

Nope.

Jesus spoke of his own body being destroyed and raised again in three days. That was before he met with John the Baptist:

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Joh 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
Joh 3:23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
Joh 3:24 For John was not yet cast into prison.

From Matthew:

Mat 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;


The Olivet Discourse is in Matthew 24 so what Jesus said about his own body/temple was before John went to prison, which was LONG before the Olivet Discourse.

 

[Truth7t7]

The retaining wall supporting the plaza is hardly a temple structure! The temple had buildings associated with it, walkways, porches, courtyards, overhangs, etc. But the retaining wall was not a temple building, period.

Luke 17.30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

I shared this earlier, and I know that you will claim this happens at the 2nd Coming. The problem with this is, people aren't going to come down from their rooftops in the last days! This was a phenomenon of Jesus' day, and Jesus was speaking to the people of his own time. They would see "his revelation" in the judgment to come, when Roman armies would lay siege to Jerusalem, and destroy the temple.

Reference to "all these" buildings bears no connection to "all these things" in vs. 33.

Matt 24.1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Matt 24.33 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Use of the same or similar words in different contexts means different things! In vs. 1, reference is to the buildings of the temple. In vs. 33, reference is to events that will happen. Not the same things! Different context!

But look at vs. 35. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Jesus is saying not just that God's word is going to show up at the temple destruction event, but *his word* will show up as well, along with *his revelation.* You are quite wrong in everything you said.

It's very important what Jesus is saying here. He is saying that the temple is temporal, and is soon to pass away. This was shocking to the Jews who had heard, "This law is for all your generations."

But Jesus was saying that his generation was failing God's Law, and that the temple law would pass away, together with its temple and covenant. In its place, *Jesus' word* would stand forever. And it was *that word* that caused Jesus to be revealed in the act of destroying the temple. It was not Jesus' actual appearance in the flesh, but only his appearance in the form of *his word.*

So let me be perfectly clear. I'm *not* saying Jesus was speaking here of his 2nd Coming, nor of any eschatological event. But he was saying that he would appear as the heavenly judge in this act of destroying the temple.

Of course the huge stones of the temple foundation are the temple, yes these huge stones are still one upon another, your 70AD claim is false

 

[covenantee]

Of course the huge stones of the temple foundation are the temple, yes these huge stones are still one upon another, your 70AD claim is false

What "huge stones" are you talking about?

 

[Dave Watchman]

Timing of the abomination of desolation
tickets on sale now!

LoL.

Short and sweet and quick to the point.

I pick your post the best of the thread:

And therefore you are the winner of the internet for the week.

On another forum they were talking about the Two Witnesses and a guy said this:

"There is a problem when no attention is paid to the time-relevant terms in Revelation. It sends interpretations off in the wrong direction.
​

I also continue to say that price action makes for market commentary, trade the charts, do not trade a story, and fly by instrumentation when ground flight rules are not appropriate.

Because there are a lot of stories out there.

But if we can recognize where we are in the Biblical Prophetic time periods, we can know therefore and understand where we are in the days of the Abomination.

When the timing of Abomination.

When the power of the holy people has been finally broken,
all these things will be completed.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Of course the huge stones of the temple foundation are the temple, yes these huge stones are still one upon another, your 70AD claim is false

Have you been to the temple plaza? I have. What I saw was a retaining wall--not a foundation! I'm having a house built right now. I had to build a foundation for the house, and also a small retaining wall. The retaining wall is *not* the house foundation. However, one of the walls of our house foundation also acts as a retaining wall.

In the case of the temple plaza, the retaining wall is separate from the foundation of the temple. It holds up the plaza, and not the temple buildings. I was there. Have you been there? Have you looked at any online pictures? I rest my case.

 

[covenantee]

LoL.

Short and sweet and quick to the point.

I pick your post the best of the thread:

And therefore you are the winner of the internet for the week.

On another forum they were talking about the Two Witnesses and a guy said this:

"There is a problem when no attention is paid to the time-relevant terms in Revelation. It sends interpretations off in the wrong direction.
​

I also continue to say that price action makes for market commentary, trade the charts, do not trade a story, and fly by instrumentation when ground flight rules are not appropriate.

Because there are a lot of stories out there.

But if we can recognize where we are in the Biblical Prophetic time periods, we can know therefore and understand where we are in the days of the Abomination.

When the timing of Abomination.

When the power of the holy people has been finally broken,
all these things will be completed.

Peaceful Sabbath.

The Judean Christians recognized the timing of the abomination of desolation, of which Jesus had warned.

They acted upon that recognition, and fled, and lived.

In 66 AD.

Thankfully, not one of them was a dispensational futurist.

 

[ewq1938]

Have you been to the temple plaza? I have. What I saw was a retaining wall--not a foundation!

A wall is still part of the temple buildings Anything built with stacked stones that serves a function is a building and Christ said no stone would remain upon another. The Romans also spared a building for themselves at the time so no full match to the prophecy.

 

[Randy Kluth]

A wall is still part of the temple buildings Anything built with stacked stones that serves a function is a building and Christ said no stone would remain upon another. The Romans also spared a building for themselves at the time so no full match to the prophecy.

View attachment 22581

Apparently you lack experience in building? As I said, a retaining wall can either be part of the house foundation or separate from the house completely, to hold up earth, such as for landscaping. The Western Wall is the latter--it is strictly for landscaping, for holding up earth to build a flat plaza so that the temple can sit upon its own foundation in a proper setting. That is my sense of it, having been there. Unless you speak with a real knowledge of such structures, I have no further wish to engage you on something you obviously know nothing about.

 

[covenantee]

A wall is still part of the temple buildings Anything built with stacked stones that serves a function is a building and Christ said no stone would remain upon another. The Romans also spared a building for themselves at the time so no full match to the prophecy.

View attachment 22581

Unwilling to show the exterior, which would reveal it to be the retaining wall.

Predictable obfuscation.

An inuksuk created by the Inuit of the Canadian Arctic.

It is constructed of stacked stones, and serves various functions.

No one of sound mind has ever described it as a building.

df.

An unsurpassed combination of ignorance and arrogance.

 

[ewq1938]

Apparently you lack experience in building? As I said, a retaining wall can either be part of the house foundation or separate from the house completely, to hold up earth, such as for landscaping. The Western Wall is the latter--it is strictly for landscaping, for holding up earth to build a flat plaza so that the temple can sit upon its own foundation in a proper setting. That is my sense of it, having been there. Unless you speak with a real knowledge of such structures, I have no further wish to engage you on something you obviously know nothing about.

Stop being rude. I know what I am talking about. I never claimed it was part of a foundation. It's a wall. It's still there, stone upon stone. It was there when Christ said all the buildings wouldn't be standing stone upon stone.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Stop being rude. I know what I am talking about. I never claimed it was part of a foundation. It's a wall. It's still there, stone upon stone. It was there when Christ said all the buildings wouldn't be standing stone upon stone.

Actually, I thought you were the one being rude, because I thought I made my argument perfectly clear. You don't have to agree with me, but it really seemed that you were just skipping over my explanation.

I went down under the temple plaza, or somewhere near there--I barely remember. I recall the guide saying that there were questions about where the real foundation stones for the temple were. I also recall that he said that the Jewish excavations were being opposed by the Arabs because it is also for them holy territory.

I've long wondered if the Jewish archaeologists were able to locate the actual foundation stones of the temple. They thought at the time that secrets about where the temple was actually located were down deep below in those tunnels. But I've never learned what they found out. That was back in the mid-70s.

I'm sorry you felt offended, though it seemed to me you were just ignoring my points. There is a big difference between a retaining wall for landscaping and a retaining wall as part of a building wall. And I hate to say it, but stone upon stone in a wall is not the same thing as stone upon stone in the wall of a temple building.

 

[ewq1938]

And I hate to say it, but stone upon stone in a wall is not the same thing as stone upon stone in the wall of a temple building.

It's still a wall and still a building and still stone upon stone. Those stones will fall in the future, during the greatest earthquake in human history.

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It's still a wall and still a building and still stone upon stone. Those stones will fall in the future, during the greatest earthquake in human history.

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Okay, that's your view. You call it a "wall building," and I say it's not a "wall for a building." We'll let others decide.

 

[ewq1938]

Okay, that's your view. You call it a "wall building," and I say it's not a "wall for a building." We'll let others decide.

The retaining walls were used to be able to have the temple higher so it could be at the top of the steep mount. They served as retaining walls and protective walls guarding the temple. They are a part of the temple complex ie: temple buildings Christ said would one day be dismantled. The temple was literally supported by these walls and the foundation that was set upon them.


Western Wall - Wikipedia

The Wailing Wall (as it is known in the West) or Western Wall (derived from Hebrew: הַכּוֹתֶל הַמַּעֲרָבִי, romanized: HaKotel HaMa'aravi, lit. 'the western wall',[1] often shortened to the Kotel or Kosel), known in Islam as the Buraq Wall (Arabic: Ḥā'iṭ al-Burāq حَائِط ٱلْبُرَاق Arabic pronunciation: ['ħaːʔɪtˤ albʊ'raːq]),[2] is an ancient limestone wall in the Old City of Jerusalem. It is a relatively small segment of a far longer ancient retaining wall, known also in its entirety as the "Western Wall".[3] The wall was originally erected as part of the expansion of the Second Jewish Temple begun by Herod the Great,[4] which resulted in the encasement of the natural, steep hill known to Jews and Christians as the Temple Mount, in a huge rectangular structure topped by a flat platform, thus creating more space for the Temple itself, its auxiliary buildings, and crowds of worshipers and visitors.

 

[ewq1938]

So you don't believe Jesus was God? Or, you don't believe God showed up, via His word, to bring judgment upon Jerusalem in 70 AD?

God did not come at all in 70 AD. He didn't need to.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The retaining walls were used to be able to have the temple higher so it could be at the top of the steep mount. They served as retaining walls and protective walls guarding the temple. They are a part of the temple complex ie: temple buildings Christ said would one day be dismantled. The temple was literally supported by these walls and the foundation that was set upon them.


Western Wall - Wikipedia

The Wailing Wall (as it is known in the West) or Western Wall (derived from Hebrew: הַכּוֹתֶל הַמַּעֲרָבִי, romanized: HaKotel HaMa'aravi, lit. 'the western wall',[1] often shortened to the Kotel or Kosel), known in Islam as the Buraq Wall (Arabic: Ḥā'iṭ al-Burāq حَائِط ٱلْبُرَاق Arabic pronunciation: ['ħaːʔɪtˤ albʊ'raːq]),[2] is an ancient limestone wall in the Old City of Jerusalem. It is a relatively small segment of a far longer ancient retaining wall, known also in its entirety as the "Western Wall".[3] The wall was originally erected as part of the expansion of the Second Jewish Temple begun by Herod the Great,[4] which resulted in the encasement of the natural, steep hill known to Jews and Christians as the Temple Mount, in a huge rectangular structure topped by a flat platform, thus creating more space for the Temple itself, its auxiliary buildings, and crowds of worshipers and visitors.

Yes, that's what a retaining wall does. It provides for a level surface upon which buildings can be erected. But the retaining walls, as such, are *not* the buildings that are built upon the building site. Nor are the retaining walls part of a building's foundation.

Retaining walls are built to support the area around the building. They are *not* the foundation for the building. Just because walls are built does not make them part of the building that is being built! Retaining walls can be built apart from there being any building built there at all! They are a landscaping project!

The retaining wall, raising up and leveling the plaza is *not* the temple foundation. The foundation for a temple building would likely be buried down into the earth below the top of the plaza so that in no way is the retaining wall part of the foundation of the temple.

In modern terms, a house foundation, for example, would be built down into a "hole." A house building site is normally "excavated." The plaza was not an "excavation."

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, that's what a retaining wall does. It provides for a level surface upon which buildings can be erected. But the retaining walls, as such, are *not* the buildings that are built upon the building site. Nor are the retaining walls part of a building's foundation.

Retaining walls are built to support the area around the building. They are *not* the foundation for the building. Just because walls are built does not make them part of the building that is being built! Retaining walls can be built apart from there being any building built there at all! They are a landscaping project!

The retaining walls are part of the temple buildings, the most important of them all because without them, nothing else could have been built. When leaving the temple on the way to the mount, they would have seen the massive retaining walls when Christ said, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Again Christ says "all these things" and you interpret it as "some of these things". You do that with this verse as well:

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.