For those who think Christ is not God.

[face2face]

Jesus and the Angel of YHWH
The New Testament identifies Jesus as the Angel. Remember, an angel is one who is sent without reference to the nature of the one sent.
When 1 Corinthians 10:1 is compared with Exodus 13:21, and Exodus 14:19, 24 the Angel of God, who had been going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them. It goes on to say that '...at the morning watch, YHWH looked down on the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud...'
Numbers 14:14 says that it was YHWH who was among the people. And Psalm 78:14 says that '...he led them with the cloud by day and all the night with a light of fire.'
It was the Angel who accompanied the nation and the New Testament says that it was the Messiah who accompanied them. He was their spiritual rock. (1 Corinthians 10:4) The association seems clear:
Deuteronomy 32:3-4 and Deuteronomy 32:15, 18

Jude 5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus*, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
* The reading Ἰησοῦς/Jesus [enjoys] ...the strongest support from a variety of early witnesses (e.g., A B 33 81 1241 1739 1881 2344 pc vg co Or1739mg)... The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005).)

Exodus 12:51 says that YHWH brought the people out of Egypt and yet...

Judges 2:1 says that the Angel of YHWH brought Israel out of Egypt

And 1 Corinthians 10:4-5, 9 says 'all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Messiah. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.... We must not put *Messiah/Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents.'
* Χριστόν (Christon, “Christ”) is attested in the majority of MSS, including many important witnesses of the Alexandrian (46 1739 1881) and Western (D F G) textvtypes, and other MSS and versions (Ψ latt sy co). The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005).


Numbers 26:65 For YHWH had said of them, “They shall die in the wilderness.” Not one of them was left, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun.

And the angel of the Lord found her,.... This is the first time that mention is made of an angel in Scripture, but is not to be understood of a created angel, but of a divine Person, as appears from Gen_16:10, the uncreated angel, the Logos or Son of God, called the Angel of God's presence, and the Angel of the covenant, Isa_63:9 Mal_3:1; who often appeared in an human form before his incarnation, being sent by his divine Father on one account or another; and hence called an angel, a messenger, or one sent, as in the fulness of time he was sent in human nature to be the Redeemer of his people; though many of the Jewish writers take this angel to be a man sent of God. Gersom (n) says he was one of the prophets that lived in those times, and observes, that some of their Rabbins say (o) he was Shem, the son of Noah; and Maimonides (p) suggests, that this angel was but a mere man, by comparing this passage with that in Gen_37:15, "a certain man found him", &c. but the context most clearly confutes this notion, and proves him to be the almighty and omniscient God; since he promises to do what none but the omnipotent Being could do, and declares such things as none but the omniscient God could know: and when it is said he "found Hagar", it is not to be understood as if it was a chance matter, or the fruit and effect of search and inquiry, or as if he had not seen her before; but rather it shows that his eye was upon her, and he had a concern for her, and at a proper time and place appeared to her at once, and unawares, and unthought of by her.

You should study the morphology of both the Hebrew and Greek text.
J.

The Scriptures don't teach a pre-existent Christ, full stop, so with that understood, the angel is an angel. And you are right, a messenger can be anyone, human or angel as per 2 Peter 2:4

 

[face2face]

Read my last posts...I do happen to disagree with you. I firmly believe Christ pre-existed Bethlehem. As Johann and I have mentioned, the Angel of the LORD is the Son. Not a created angel, but archangel... Literally head of the angels. Just a president Biden is chief of the armed forces, but it doesn't make him a soldier.
Jesus acted as the Father's messenger... Angel... Throughout the OT. Didn't make Him a created angel however... He created the angels a ministering spirits, which is why He is said to be above them. "Let all the angels of God worship Him", even as they worship the Father.

Nothing of substance here.
Forcing a pre-existent Christ in John 1 and then making Christ the archangel of the OT is such an abuse of Scripture and violates the record in more ways than one. I have two options...try to contend with it, or just accept that you & J. can say "the moon is made of green cheese" and if that's what you believe, so be it. Just be warned you don't have a sacrifice for sin if you believe in a pre-existent Christ it's that important you understand.

 

[face2face]

.
It is possible that appearances of the angel of the Lord were manifestations of Jesus before His incarnation. Jesus declared Himself to be existent “before Abraham” (John 8:58), so it is logical that He would be active and manifest in the world.

Have you ever "really" looked at the Lord's words in John 8:58?

 

[face2face]

Get real, John is commanded to write epistles too the Angels in the first two chapters of revelation.

the angels are ministering spirits per New Testament scripture.

Watching Brakelite & Johann run away with their notions has been a real eye opener and shows how far people will go to insert dogma into the text. So far they have falsely interpreted the Godhead and now the Angelic Host...I wonder what is next?

 

[face2face]

Adam's lineage is condemned. But human bodies are not intrinsically bodies of death, sin did that. Romans 5, sin brings death. Adam's line of humanity is corrupted by sin, and condemned by God.

Your body is under condemnation. Death is working in your members as I write. You have a nature which is corrupting and will eventually die and return to dust. No different to a dog or any animal.

 

[Brakelite]

Nothing of substance here.
Forcing a pre-existent Christ in John 1 and then making Christ the archangel of the OT is such an abuse of Scripture and violates the record in more ways than one. I have two options...try to contend with it, or just accept that you & J. can say "the moon is made of green cheese" and if that's what you believe, so be it. Just be warned you don't have a sacrifice for sin if you believe in a pre-existent Christ it's that important you understand.

And the LORD (Yehovah) appeared unto him (Abraham) in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

Who is this? Did God wear large aviator sunglasses so Abraham couldn't see His face?

 

[face2face]

And the LORD (Yehovah) appeared unto him (Abraham) in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

Who is this? Did God wear large aviator sunglasses so Abraham couldn't see His face?

It's a humble angel Brakelite - your garden variety. Boy you blokes make it hard for yourselves. What do you think Matthew 18:10 means?

 

[JunChosen]

In order for people to understand that Christ existed in the Old Testament is to know the word "theophany" that is, the appearing of God Himself to people as the "Angel of the LORD" and in this instance, in Exodus 3:2 it is almost, always likely, the second person of the Trinity that is in view.

To God Be The Glory

 

[JunChosen]

It's a humble angel Brakelite - your garden variety. Boy you blokes make it hard for yourselves. What do you think Matthew 18:10 means?

"Humble angel," did You say? I have a feeling that yourself don't know who these angels are! In fact, they are ministering spirits sent forth by God to minister to all believers! Hebrews 1:14.

To God Be The Glory

 

[face2face]

"Humble angel," did You say? I have a feeling that yourself don't know who these angels are! In fact, they are ministering spirits sent forth by God to minister to all believers! Hebrews 1:14.

To God Be The Glory

True - good quote and relevant.

 

[face2face]

In order for people to understand that Christ existed in the Old Testament is to know the word "theophany" that is, the appearing of God Himself to people as the "Angel of the LORD" and in this instance, in Exodus 3:2 it is almost, always likely, the second person of the Trinity that is in view.

To God Be The Glory

No...try again!

 

[face2face]

In order for people to understand that Christ existed in the Old Testament is to know the word "theophany" that is, the appearing of God Himself to people as the "Angel of the LORD" and in this instance, in Exodus 3:2 it is almost, always likely, the second person of the Trinity that is in view.

To God Be The Glory

The word does not occur in the OT or NT...not another...one Johann is enough please.

Plenty of words you could have used:

MANIFEST, manʹi-fest, MANIFESTATION, man-i-fes-tāʹshun (φανερόω, phaneróō, φανερός, phanerós): “To manifest” is generally the tr of phaneroō, “to make apparent” Mark 4:22 John 17:6 Romans 3:21 1 Timothy 3:16 , “God was manifest in the flesh,” 1 John 1:2 etc)

God was manifest in the flesh not literally in the flesh - His Son did a wonderful thing revealing Him perfectly.

 

[Johann]

The Scriptures don't teach a pre-existent Christ, full stop, so with that understood, the angel is an angel. And you are right, a messenger can be anyone, human or angel as per 2 Peter 2:4

F2F, you and I both know that Christ Jesus did Pre-excist, Imperfect Tense=continually existing=Haya/..do look up this word.... Before there was any beginning and I am astonished you don't find Christ in the Old Testament and your ignorance re what the rabbi's wrote about Christ, and how you want to "control" @Brakelite from finding out the truth/Da'as for himself, to what extreme you would go in actually preaching a heteros gospel.


2Co 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.
2Co 10:5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,


τα γαρ οπλα της στρατειας ημων ου σαρκικα αλλα δυνατα τω θεω προς καθαιρεσιν οχυρωματων
λογισμους καθαιρουντες και παν υψωμα επαιρομενον κατα της γνωσεως του θεου και αιχμαλωτιζοντες παν νοημα εις την υπακοην του χριστου
J.

 

[Johann]

Your body is under condemnation. Death is working in your members as I write. You have a nature which is corrupting and will eventually die and return to dust. No different to a dog or any animal.

@marks is sound in his walk with the Lord Christ Jesus and in scriptures F2F


Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

J.

 

[Johann]

Have you ever "really" looked at the Lord's words in John 8:58?

Before Abraham was (prin Abraam genesthai). Usual idiom with prin in positive sentence with infinitive (second aorist middle of ginomai) and the accusative of general reference, “before coming as to Abraham,” “before Abraham came into existence or was born.”
I am (egō eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God. The contrast between genesthai (entrance into existence of Abraham) and eimi (timeless being) is complete. See the same contrast between en in Joh_1:1 and egeneto in Joh_1:14. See the contrast also in Psa_90:2 between God (ei, art) and the mountains (genēthēnai). See the same use of eimi in Joh_6:20; Joh_9:9; Joh_8:24, Joh_8:28; Joh_18:6.

You read about the Pre-existent Christ Jesus but you don't want to acknowledge the truth.
J.

 

[Johann]

1 Peter 1:3 KJV
[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


Seems as if Peter is claiming too have been twice begotten?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]

Was (ēn). Three times in this sentence John uses this imperfect of eimi to be which conveys no idea of origin for God or for the Logos, simply continuous existence. Quite a different verb (egeneto, became) appears in Joh_1:14 for the beginning of the Incarnation of the Logos. See the distinction sharply drawn in Joh_8:58 “before Abraham came (genesthai) I am” (eimi, timeless existence).
J.

 

[Brakelite]

F2F, you and I both know that Christ Jesus did Pre-excist, Imperfect Tense=continually existing=Haya/..do look up this word.... Before there was any beginning and I am astonished you don't find Christ in the Old Testament and your ignorance re what the rabbi's wrote about Christ, and how you want to "control" @Brakelite from finding out the truth/Da'as for himself, to what extreme you would go in actually preaching a heteros gospel.


2Co 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.
2Co 10:5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,


τα γαρ οπλα της στρατειας ημων ου σαρκικα αλλα δυνατα τω θεω προς καθαιρεσιν οχυρωματων
λογισμους καθαιρουντες και παν υψωμα επαιρομενον κατα της γνωσεως του θεου και αιχμαλωτιζοντες παν νοημα εις την υπακοην του χριστου
J.

The questions I'm asking J are really rhetorical. I'm hoping f2f and company will actually look at the issues and questions with some biblical literacy. I mean, I asked f2f who is the individual referenced in Genesis 18:1, the scripture names the individual, the LORD, and f2f says angel??!?!! Unless @face2face has some very good reasoning to explain that, I would say it's cognitive dissonance. And he accuses you (not me because I'm not your ordinary garden type trinitarian) of looking at scripture with preconceived bias?

 

[Johann]

The questions I'm asking J are really rhetorical. I'm hoping f2f and company will actually look at the issues and questions with some biblical literacy. I mean, I asked f2f who is the individual referenced in Genesis 18:1, the scripture names the individual, the LORD, and f2f says angel??!?!! Unless @face2face has some very good reasoning to explain that, I would say it's cognitive dissonance. And he accuses you (not me because I'm not your ordinary garden type trinitarian) of looking at scripture with preconceived bias?

יְהוָ֔ה YHVH. Gen 18.1

@Brakelite, we are all in a race and some will hinder us or lay obstacles in our way as we behold our Lord and great God kai Savior Christ Jesus.
Don't mind them, you and I need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
Shalom to you and family
J.

 

[Brakelite]

יְהוָ֔ה YHVH. Gen 18.1

@Brakelite, we are all in a race and some will hinder us or lay obstacles in our way as we behold our Lord and great God kai Savior Christ Jesus.
Don't mind them, you and I need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
Shalom to you and family
J.

Amen brother.
Gaan die alle swartes.

 

[Johann]

Amen brother.
Gaan die alle swartes.

Lol!
Nee swaer, ons is nie in daardie shiva maar op n totale 'anderse' shiva en loop in die weg van godelikheid.
J.