For those who think Christ is not God.

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Is Christ God?

  • God

    Votes: 31 77.5%
  • Lesser than God

    Votes: 7 17.5%
  • A mere Son/Man of God.

    Votes: 2 5.0%

  • Total voters
    40

Robert Gwin

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You need to read the Bible and not what JW' teach you.
J.
Accepting the Bible is a requirement for life Joe. It is our responsibility as individuals to come to know God and obey the Gospel. What is God's responsibility? To see to it each individual has the opportunity to do that. There was basically 3 steps to God's plan after the sin of Adam. The first covenant led us to the Messiah sir, and the Messiah put in place a new covenant, the step we are in right now. He trained his disciples, and sent them out, and they became proficient at it. Just before he left there were likely 500+ disciples gathered to hear him give the assignment recorded for us at Mat 28:19,20.

You are a very bright individual sir, you and I know that every single one of those who heard that departing message that day are dead, yet according to Mat 24:14 there would be people doing it in these last days, therefore when those original disciples made disciples then they too would go to make even more disciples, correct?

My point being is, God promised to reach you, and if I am one of Jesus' disciples then you have been given the opportunity to come to know God, to know Jesus, and to learn what is required for salvation. And I fully recognize that vise versa applies here as well. Our responsibility is to accept the word from others who speak about God readily, but also to examine the Scriptures daily as to whether these things are so. Acts 17:11 Remember Joe, we answer for the choices we make.

The Bible identifies the one faith that belongs to Jehovah. And in fact that is the greatest commandment of the faith, the God you choose to worship. If your god is not God, then your faith is valueless as we both realize. Jesus made Jehovah's name known, and stated point blank He not only is his God, but the God all of his disciples would worship and serve exclusively. I choose to obey Jesus. That is not the only identifier for sure, but the main one. Mat 22:37
 

Johann

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The Scriptures don't teach a pre-existent Christ, full stop, so with that understood, the angel is an angel. And you are right, a messenger can be anyone, human or angel as per 2 Peter 2:4
Accepting the Bible is a requirement for life Joe. It is our responsibility as individuals to come to know God and obey the Gospel. What is God's responsibility? To see to it each individual has the opportunity to do that. There was basically 3 steps to God's plan after the sin of Adam. The first covenant led us to the Messiah sir, and the Messiah put in place a new covenant, the step we are in right now. He trained his disciples, and sent them out, and they became proficient at it. Just before he left there were likely 500+ disciples gathered to hear him give the assignment recorded for us at Mat 28:19,20.

You are a very bright individual sir, you and I know that every single one of those who heard that departing message that day are dead, yet according to Mat 24:14 there would be people doing it in these last days, therefore when those original disciples made disciples then they too would go to make even more disciples, correct?

My point being is, God promised to reach you, and if I am one of Jesus' disciples then you have been given the opportunity to come to know God, to know Jesus, and to learn what is required for salvation. And I fully recognize that vise versa applies here as well. Our responsibility is to accept the word from others who speak about God readily, but also to examine the Scriptures daily as to whether these things are so. Acts 17:11 Remember Joe, we answer for the choices we make.

The Bible identifies the one faith that belongs to Jehovah. And in fact that is the greatest commandment of the faith, the God you choose to worship. If your god is not God, then your faith is valueless as we both realize. Jesus made Jehovah's name known, and stated point blank He not only is his God, but the God all of his disciples would worship and serve exclusively. I choose to obey Jesus. That is not the only identifier for sure, but the main one. Mat 22:37

Robert, no need to teach me brother, and no need to proselyte me to embrace JW' teachings.
Shalom
J.
 

Johann

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Of course.
Before Abraham was, I am — The words rendered “was” and “am” are quite different. The one clause means, “Abraham was brought into being”; the other, “I exist.” The statement therefore is not that Christ came into existence before Abraham did (as Arians affirm is the meaning), but that He never came into being at all, but existed before Abraham had a being; in other words, existed before creation, or eternally (as Joh_1:1). In that sense the Jews plainly understood Him, since “then took they up stones to cast at Him,” just as they had before done when they saw that He made Himself equal with God (Joh_5:18).


Was, I am (γενέσθαι, ἐγώ εἰμι)
It is important to observe the distinction between the two verbs. Abraham's life was under the conditions of time, and therefore had a temporal beginning. Hence, Abraham came into being, or was born (γενέσθαι). Jesus' life was from and to eternity. Hence the formula for absolute, timeless existence, I am (ἐγώ εἰμι).


Before Abraham was (prin Abraam genesthai). Usual idiom with prin in positive sentence with infinitive (second aorist middle of ginomai) and the accusative of general reference, “before coming as to Abraham,” “before Abraham came into existence or was born.”
I am (egō eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God. The contrast between genesthai (entrance into existence of Abraham) and eimi (timeless being) is complete. See the same contrast between en in Joh_1:1 and egeneto in Joh_1:14. See the contrast also in Psa_90:2 between God (ei, art) and the mountains (genēthēnai). See the same use of eimi in Joh_6:20; Joh_9:9; Joh_8:24, Joh_8:28; Joh_18:6.

J.
 

BarneyFife

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Too those not believing all the sophistry coming out of pagan Rome.
I prefer not too evaluate doctrine by simply engaging in the genetic fallacy.
Have you ever "really" looked at the Lord's words in John 8:58?
Have you ever "really" looked at the Lord's words in John 17:5?

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with
the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

"I had" (eichon) is 1st Person Singular—the form of a verb used to indicate the Speaker as the subject of the verb.

Isn't this internally incontrovertible, even if not preponderantly conclusive?

—as long as we are tasking ourselves to "really" look at the LORD's words.


I'm not looking to prove that Jesus is God. The Bible already says that—whatever that means.

After all, I can't fathom how a man can be God. I just believe it because the Bible says so.

I'm a little too smart to believe that I can understand the incarnation of Christ.
And I don't feel like having my ears pinned back by Him later on for being so silly.


My difficulty lies with your claim that Christ's "non-pre-existence" should be considered a foregone conclusion by anyone within earshot of you. Seems a bit presumptuous.

Please forgive me if I misread you.
 
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Waiting on him

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as long as we are tasking ourselves to "really" look at the LORD's words.

there have been numerous worlds.


John 18:20 KJV
[20] Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

In Jesus’s view the Jews of that specific age were a world.
 
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BarneyFife

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there have been numerous worlds.


John 18:20 KJV
[20] Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

In Jesus’s view the Jews of that specific age were a world.
You're on a bona fide slippery slope there.
For certain bacteria, my eyebrows are a world.
In fact, from what I understand, it's a jungle in there. :D
 

APAK

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You're on a bona fide slippery slope there.
For certain bacteria, my eyebrows are a world.
In fact, from what I understand, it's a jungle in there. :D
Do not jest..

You would be surprised to know in much scripture and for prophecy, there exists deliberately, at least dual purposes and meanings embedded in them. This may include two or more 'before the foundation of the world' expressions or 'before the world was or began' for this subject. I prefer the 'foundation' expression as it gives more meaning, the idea of the beginning of something about to be created in the world.

Two types:
1. 'before the foundation of the world' meaning actually right before the 1st Adam, the first man was created, and not the earth or universe, and 2., In what @Waiting on him was referring to, 'before the foundation of the world' meaning the current local known world of people existing right before Christ. This particular world that he who live in and pronounce the Kingdom of God is at hand.

And Christ reiterated this promise of the Father he knew of with eagerness in prayer, in the Garden.

The idiom then: Of the glory I had with you (meaning, the glory of immortality you promised me) before the foundation of the world (meaning, in your plan, both before the 1st Adam was created and also before Christ the 2nd Adam was in this world of national Jews who would see his glory in person - of immortality).

All this was in the mind and plan of God, before the 1st and 2nd Adams. And his Son read it well -he had close contact with his mind all the way.


Just curious what do you think of,'...O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self...', the part you did not address?



Thanks.
 
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Johann

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Do not jest..

You would be surprised to know in much scripture and for prophecy, there exists deliberately, at least dual purposes and meanings embedded in them. This may include two or more 'before the foundation of the world' expressions or 'before the world was or began' for this subject. I prefer the 'foundation' expression as it gives more meaning, the idea of the beginning of something about to be created in the world.

Two types:
1. 'before the foundation of the world' meaning actually right before the 1st Adam, the first man was created, and not the earth or universe, and 2., In what @Waiting on him was referring to, 'before the foundation of the world' meaning the current local known world of people existing right before Christ. This particular world that he who live in and pronounce the Kingdom of God is at hand.

And Christ reiterated this promise of the Father he knew of with eagerness in prayer, in the Garden.

The idiom then: Of the glory I had with you (meaning, the glory of immortality you promised me) before the foundation of the world (meaning, in your plan, both before the 1st Adam was created and also before Christ the 2nd Adam was in this world of national Jews who would see his glory in person - of immortality).

All this was in the mind and plan of God, before the 1st and 2nd Adams. And his Son read it well -he had close contact with his mind all the way.


Just curious what do you think of,'...O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self...', the part you did not address?



Thanks.


With thine own self (para seautōi). “By the side of thyself.” Jesus prays for full restoration to the pre-incarnate glory and fellowship (cf. Joh_1:1) enjoyed before the Incarnation (Joh_1:14). This is not just ideal pre-existence, but actual and conscious existence at the Father’s side (para soi, with thee) “which I had” (hēi eichon, imperfect active of echō, I used to have, with attraction of case of hēn to hēi because of doxēi), “before the world was” (pro tou ton kosmon einai), “before the being as to the world” (cf. Joh_17:24). It is small wonder that those who deny or reject the deity of Jesus Christ have trouble with the Johannine authorship of this book and with the genuineness of these words. But even Harnack admits that the words here and in Joh_17:24 are “undoubtedly the reflection of the certainty with which Jesus himself spoke” (What Is Christianity, Engl. Tr., p. 132). But Paul, as clearly as John, believes in the actual pre-existence and deity of Jesus Christ (Php_2:5-11).
Robertson.

J.

Pretty self explanatory
J.
 

APAK

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With thine own self (para seautōi). “By the side of thyself.” Jesus prays for full restoration to the pre-incarnate glory and fellowship (cf. Joh_1:1) enjoyed before the Incarnation (Joh_1:14). This is not just ideal pre-existence, but actual and conscious existence at the Father’s side (para soi, with thee) “which I had” (hēi eichon, imperfect active of echō, I used to have, with attraction of case of hēn to hēi because of doxēi), “before the world was” (pro tou ton kosmon einai), “before the being as to the world” (cf. Joh_17:24). It is small wonder that those who deny or reject the deity of Jesus Christ have trouble with the Johannine authorship of this book and with the genuineness of these words. But even Harnack admits that the words here and in Joh_17:24 are “undoubtedly the reflection of the certainty with which Jesus himself spoke” (What Is Christianity, Engl. Tr., p. 132). But Paul, as clearly as John, believes in the actual pre-existence and deity of Jesus Christ (Php_2:5-11).
Robertson.

J.

Pretty self explanatory
J.
You are really becoming an annoying person with no class or manners. I never addressed my posted query to you. And as usual you responded with a whacked answer that make no sense. Gibberish as you are becoming.

And I have to tell you to 'but out' of your own thread....how ironic
 

quietthinker

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You are really becoming an annoying person with no class or manners. I never addressed my posted query to you. And as usual you responded with a whacked answer that make no sense. Gibberish as you are becoming.

And I have to tell you to 'but out' of your own thread....how ironic
'put your right but in, put your right but out, put your right but in and shake it all about; do the hokey pokey and yer turn around, that's what it's all about' da da!
Chill APAK....breath deeply......not long to go! :)
 
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Johann

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You are really becoming an annoying person with no class or manners. I never addressed my posted query to you. And as usual you responded with a whacked answer that make no sense. Gibberish as you are becoming.

And I have to tell you to 'but out' of your own thread....how ironic

Still love you bro, but you are not going to blaspheme Christ Jesus, you reveal what is hidden in your heart and I am in you face, you dig?
Shalom
J.
 
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APAK

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'put your right but in, put your right but out, put your right but in and shake it all about; do the hokey pokey and yer turn around, that's what it's all about' da da!
Chill APAK....breath deeply......not long to go! :)
Say that again mate...I put both my feet in...to his place where the sun don't shine..and then what....:D
 

APAK

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Still love you bro, but you are not going to blaspheme Christ Jesus, you reveal what is hidden in your heart and I am in you face, you dig?
Shalom
J.
YOU are out of control bud...get off the drugs...