2 answers to 2 questions on the O.D.

[Taken]

You believe and teach of a pre-trib rapture found no place in scripture, a fictional fairy tale of John N Darby and promoted by C.I. Scofield's 1909 reference Bible, better known as dispensationalism

The church will be present on earth to be eyewitnesses of the Lord's return in the heavens

Luke 21:28KJV
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Yep...my redemption draweth nigh.

[28] And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
[29] And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
[30] When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
[31] So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
[32] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
[33] Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
[34] And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
[35] For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
[36] Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The church will be present on earth to be eyewitnesses of the Lord's return in the heavens

...a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

...accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,

The church will be present on earth to be eyewitnesses of the Lord's return in the heavens

Okay, you shall be on Earth during the Tribulation, Looking up, waiting for the Son of mans Return.

I will be WITH the Lord.

Don’t forget...the SNARE, the Worthy will ESCAPE, the those on Earth Looking up will be “MOURNING” when they SEE Him

Matt 24:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the Earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy you deny that a literal, visible, second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens is seen below in Matthew 24:30, your interpretation of Matthew chapter 24 is deficient

Matthew 24:30KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Problem is, I *don't* deny that a "literal, visible, second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens is seen in Matthew 24:30." Whatever made you think I thought otherwise?

 

[Randy Kluth]

The questions asked are seen below, the signs that precede the second coming and end of the world, Matthew Chapter 24 answers these two questions

Matthew 24:3KJV
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

You're asking two different questions than I asked. The 1st question was:
"Tell us, when shall these things be?"
That had to do with the fall of Jerusalem--when would these things be, namely the fall of Jerusalem and the fall of the temple? The answer was, "In this generation."

The 2nd question was:
"What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
That had to do with the last days, or the end of the age. We agree on that.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus clearly stated it would be a "Future" generation that would be eyewitnesses of the "Signs" and his literal, visible, "Second Coming" seen in Matthew 24:30

Matthew 24:33-37KJV
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

How can you say that Jesus *clearly* stated "this generation" would be in a *future* generation? Nothing is clear about that at all! "This generation," to Jesus would be his own generation. That is *clear* to me!

By saying the "birth pang" signs would be in his generation, and his Coming in another generation, we can understand that Jesus was excluding his Coming from being one of the signs of his own generation.

How do we know Jesus indicated his Coming would be in a future generation, and not in his own generation? It is because he was answering two separate questions, one indicating when the fall of Jerusalem would be and the other indicating when his coming would be.

And he said the fall of Jerusalem would happen in his own generation. And he said the fall of Jerusalem would only be the start of a long period of Jewish exile, after which he would come.

In saying his Coming would be *after* the tribulations of an age of Jewish Punishment Jesus made his Coming to be at the end of the age, many generations removed from his own generation. It was a separate issue from the question of when the fall of Jerusalem would take place.

 

[Randy Kluth]

2 answers to 2 questions on the O.D.

@Randy Kluth

Your point seems to be;
Listening to this persons POV and that persons POV can be intriguing, yet confusing. This sounds plausible, but yet so does That sound plausible.

Sounds as if you have come to the conclusion, and I would say, rightly so... All of Scripture IS TRUE...Yet Particular Scriptures APPLY to Particular persons.

Jews and Gentiles are still Divided.
Jews and Jews are still Divided.
Gentiles and Gentiles are still Divided.

That which Scripturally Applies to ONE, does not necessarily Apply to all others of the same RACE (ie Jews/Gentiles)...considering the FREEWILL thingy of All People.

The “coming together” of ANY People (races, religions), is ONLY effected by, through, of the individuals desire, and Gods Works of effecting that individuals desire........

The GREAT “revival” everyone is expecting, hoping for...perhaps think shall be “effected” by men... SHALL BE “effected” BY the Lord God Himself...during Gods GREAT 7 yr Tribulation....and Primarily SHALL with positivity, “effect” the Jews (ie Israel/all the Tribes).

Glory to God,
Taken

For some reason Dispensationalists divide Jews from salvation offered to all ethnicities. And Reform Theology divides Israel from salvation offered to all nations. But does God really reject ethnicities and nations simply because not *all* in an ethnic group is saved, and not *all* in a national group is saved?

I don't believe so. Would you throw out the idea of having a Christian family simply because one or two people in the family decide to not be Christians? No, you would separate out those who wish to be non-Christian and continue the family with the Christians that remain.

The same is true with the Jewish ethnicity and nationality. Nations rise and fall. Israel fell, as all nations do.

And so, when Israel fell, the Jewish ethnicity seemed to perish along with national Israel. But the Scriptures say that God does not give up on nations simply because many of them fail. They can be given a 2nd chance. And those who wish to no longer be part of God's covenant can be cut off and let go, rebuilding the people and the nation around the original faith.

The process Israel has gone through all Christian nations have gone through. But has God given up on Russians, Ukrainians, the English, the French, the Spanish, the German, the America, the Australian, the New Zealander, the Canadian, etc. etc.? No, by no means!

These will be judged, sifted, and restored, because God isn't just saving a piece of a tail out of a nation, but wishes to save the *society,* the fellowship of people in a nation. He wants a political system that brings people together, and not send them out as hermits.

There is no "7 years tribulation" in my view. The Great Tribulation Jesus spoke of is the Jewish Punishment of the present age. When it ends God will regather Israel into a Christian nation. And many Christian nations will be restored, as well. That's how I perceive God's promises to Abraham.

 

[ewq1938]

You're asking two different questions than I asked. The 1st question was:
"Tell us, when shall these things be?"
That had to do with the fall of Jerusalem--when would these things be, namely the fall of Jerusalem and the fall of the temple? The answer was, "In this generation."

Quote the verse where he says that about the fall of Jerusalem and the temple.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, he didn't. If he had, he would be a false prophet because NONE of those events have happened yet. Luckily, the preterist understanding that most of the Olivet Discourse events have happened in the past, is wrong.

I've told you repeatedly that I'm not a Preterist. You seem to stubbornly cling to a false definition of Preterist, one that believes all those who believe the AoD was the fall of Jerusalem is Preterism. That is not true. The Early Church believed the AoD was the fall of Jerusalem--at least most of them did. They were not Preterists because Preterism hadn't even come into existence yet. It was simply an historical interpretation of prophecy just as the prediction of a virgin birth has been already fulfilled in history.

What I said is that Jesus did not literally say that all of the events he mentioned, including birth pangs and Jesus' Coming, would take place in "one generation." That is *not* in the passage.

Jesus' answered 2 questions, and we should look at them separately. He answered the question of when the fall of Jeruslem would take place, along with its preliminary signs. And the answer was, "they will all take place in *this generation.* "

The next question concerned when Jesus' Coming would take place. He answered by indicating it would be at the end of a long age of Jewish tribulation which only begins in their own generation. In other words, he will come in an entirely different, future generation. That is explicitly said!

 

[Randy Kluth]

The apostles listening to Jesus on the Mount of Olives must undoubtedly have recognized the need to keep alert. Jesus said: “Pay attention to yourselves that your hearts never become weighed down with overeating and heavy drinking and anxieties of life, and suddenly that day be instantly upon you as a snare. For it will come upon all those dwelling on the face of the whole earth. Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that must occur and in standing before the Son of man.” (Luke 21:34-36)

Jesus once again showed that what he was foretelling was not of limited scope.

I disagree with this. Any statement that is made in Scripture is limited by the context and by the explicit statements being made. In this case, if a question is being asked about a statement made by Jesus about the destruction of the temple, then the scope of the answer must be limited to the question being asked. And so Jesus answered, the fall of Jerusalem will be in "this generation."

Nobody would say that others, outside of that generation, cannot benefit from this teaching. We all benefit from historically fulfilled prophecies that were initially applied exclusively to Israel.

The principle remains the same for all of God's saints, and so, we can all benefit. But in terms of interpreting the *scope* of the passage, we must consider context and object, as well as the things being explicitly said.

 

[ewq1938]

What I said is that Jesus did not literally say that all of the events he mentioned, including birth pangs and Jesus' Coming, would take place in "one generation." That is *not* in the passage.

Yes it is.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Jesus' answered 2 questions, and we should look at them separately. He answered the question of when the fall of Jeruslem would take place, along with its preliminary signs. And the answer was, "they will all take place in *this generation.* "

He didn't mention the temple one time in the Olivet Discourse. He never answered that question.

The next question concerned when Jesus' Coming would take place. He answered by indicating it would be at the end of a long age of Jewish tribulation which only begins in their own generation.

He also did not say that. He spoke of Christians being persecuted, not Jews of Judaism.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Quote the verse where he says that about the fall of Jerusalem and the temple.

Don't need to. We've all heard it a dozen times. You probably try to exclude from the Olivet Discourse Jesus' initial statements that elicited the entire Discourse. I view Jesus' initial statements about the fall of Jerusalem as part of the discussion in which he answered questions concerning them.

Can you imagine this scenario. I tell a group that New York is going to get hit by a bomb. 15 minutes later somebody asks me, When will this happen? And I answer with a discussion explaining why the bomb will fall, and directly answer the question by saying, It will take place tomorrow.

Try and separate that conversation into two different, separate conversations that bear no relation to one another. That's what you seem to be doing with the Olivet Discourse.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes it is.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Once again, you're begging the question: did "all these things" refer only to the birth pangs and to the fall of Jerusalem," or did it include the 2nd Coming? As I showed you, "all these things" can refer only to Jesus' generation, and exclude the coming of Jesus, which Jesus explicitly said would be *after* the tribulations of the present age and *at* the end of the age.

He didn't mention the temple one time in the Olivet Discourse. He never answered that question.

Of course he did. The entire conversation began with Jesus' explicit statement that the temple would fall, stone by stone.

He also did not say that. He spoke of Christians being persecuted, not Jews of Judaism.

Not true. Jesus referred, according to Luke 21, to a Jewish Punishment. Christians were not being punished--Jews in Judaism were.

Luke 21.23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

[Marty fox]

The ironic thing is that the city and the temple were destroyed within that generation thus this proves what Jesus meant.

 

[ewq1938]

Once again, you're begging the question

Once again you resurrected ignoring what the text says.

: did "all these things" refer only to the birth pangs and to the fall of Jerusalem," or did it include the 2nd Coming? As I showed you, "all these things" can refer only to Jesus' generation, and exclude the coming of Jesus, which Jesus explicitly said would be *after* the tribulations of the present age and *at* the end of the age.

One generation would see "all these things" according to Christ. You have mangled it beyond comprehension.

Of course he did. The entire conversation began with Jesus' explicit statement that the temple would fall, stone by stone.

No, that was part of the short temple discourse. It wasn't part of the mount discourse.

Not true. Jesus referred, according to Luke 21, to a Jewish Punishment. Christians were not being punished--Jews in Judaism were.

Luke 21.23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

He is talking about Christians, the same people he warned to leave when the AoD was seen. Jews of Judaism didn't listen to him, nor do they today.

Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Luk 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

Still talking about what Christians will face. Christians will be arrested and brought to Jewish synagogues!

Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.


Judaism doesn't get persecuted for the name of Christ!


Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Same people he has been talking about, Christians.


Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Same Christians being killed that he mentioned in verse 16.

 

[ewq1938]

The ironic thing is that the city and the temple were destroyed within that generation thus this proves what Jesus meant.

Nope. Both were partially destroyed but Christ said the city would be leveled to the ground. Didn't happen!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Once again you resurrected ignoring what the text says.
One generation would see "all these things" according to Christ. You have mangled it beyond comprehension.

It is not "mangling" the text to say that Jesus placed his Coming after the Jewish tribulations of the current age and at the end of the age. This clearly places his Coming in a different generation than his own generation, which would see "all these things," ie all the things leading up to the fall of Jerusalem.

The whole question is: does "all these things" refer exclusively to the things leading up to 70 AD, or must they include the Coming of Jesus? We won't agree because we see the answer to this differently. And since we aren't resolving this, there's no sense in belaboring the point. My interest now lies only with others who are interested in pursuing these matters in a fresh way.

 

[Enoch111]

None of the Olivet Discourse events happened in the first century.

False. The persecution of the apostles and Christians did happen in that century. Also Jesus said that false Messiahs (Christs) would appear, and they did. Simon Bar Kochba in the second century was hailed as the Messiah by the Jews when he led a revolt against the Romans.

 

[ewq1938]

It is not "mangling" the text to say that Jesus placed his Coming after the Jewish tribulations of the current age and at the end of the age.

It is plus there is no "Jewish tribulations" in the passage.

This clearly places his Coming in a different generation than his own generation

He did no such thing. You are doing that. His coming is part of a series of events he said one generation would see. Anything other than that is imaginary and does not come from any of the gospels.

The whole question is: does "all these things" refer exclusively to the things leading up to 70 AD, or must they include the Coming of Jesus?

Those who cannot recognize the difference of saying something at the temple, and saying many things at the mount of olives will not be able to understand any of this which is painfully obvious.

 

[ewq1938]

False. The persecution of the apostles and Christians did happen in that century.

Types and shadows of what is coming. The AoD has not come, the last and final antichrist has not come, the Olivet Discourse has not been fulfilled and Jerusalem has NEVER been leveled to the ground as Christ prophesied.

Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

This has not happened.

 

[Truth7t7]

Problem is, I *don't* deny that a "literal, visible, second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens is seen in Matthew 24:30." Whatever made you think I thought otherwise?

1.) Randy when did or will Matthew 24:30 in this literal, visible, second coming take place?

2.) When did or will Matthew 24:15 the Abomination Of Desolation take place?

3.) When did or will Matthew 24:21 the great tribulation take place?

 

[Truth7t7]

You're asking two different questions than I asked. The 1st question was:
"Tell us, when shall these things be?"
That had to do with the fall of Jerusalem--when would these things be, namely the fall of Jerusalem and the fall of the temple? The answer was, "In this generation."

The 2nd question was:
"What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
That had to do with the last days, or the end of the age. We agree on that.

Scripture doesn't state "In" it Cleary states "This Generation", you have added "In" to scripture trying to validate your teaching

Once again and again, and again, and again

Scripture clearly teaches it will be a future generation that will be eyewitnesses to the signs that precede the literal, visible, second coming, know that it is near, even at the doors

"When ye shall see all these things", a future generation that will be eyewitnesses to the signs and second coming

"This Generation" that will be future eyewitnesses and see all fulfilled, not your claimed "In This Generation" relating to the time of Jesus Christ and his disciples

Matthew 24:33-34KJV
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.