2 answers to 2 questions on the O.D.

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Randy Kluth

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It can validly be translated as "that generation" meaning the generation he was speaking about, not to. "this generation" can also be understood as a generation described not the one listening which is the case.

Your opinion determines how you wish to apply it. For me, it means what it seems to mean, the present generation of Jesus' time. Not only does it appear to be so, but Jesus directly addressed those present, indicating that they would experience these things themselves.

And yet you say none of these things was experienced by them? I can't agree.

Jesus explicitly said they would be persecuted. They were.

Jesus said they would hear of wars and rumors of wars. They did--the Roman armies were busy stirring up trouble in the vicinity.

Their contemporaries, whether peers or children living in their time, would see the fall of both Jerusalem and the temple. They did.
 

ewq1938

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Your opinion determines how you wish to apply it. For me, it means what it seems to mean, the present generation of Jesus' time. Not only does it appear to be so, but Jesus directly addressed those present, indicating that they would experience these things themselves.

Yet they did not. They did not see any of the events Christ listed.



Jesus explicitly said they would be persecuted. They were.

All generations of Christians have seen persecution. That is too generic.


Jesus said they would hear of wars and rumors of wars.

See above.

They did--the Roman armies were busy stirring up trouble in the vicinity.

No they weren't. They occupied the area and had for a long time and would until some foolish Jews decided to stir up some trouble.

Their contemporaries, whether peers or children living in their time, would see the fall of both Jerusalem and the temple. They did.

Which isn't part of the Olivet Discourse. They saw the death and resurrection and ascension of Christ too, but still not events spoken of in the Olivet Discourse.

The Olivet Discourse is only about events just prior to the Great Tribulation, events of the Great Tribulation, and events happening post Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

None of the disciples endured to the end and were saved. This is speaking of the rapture.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The end didn't come because they were thousands of years from the end. The preaching to the world will happen in the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

This also did not happen.
 

Randy Kluth

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God established Division..between many things...including... between Hebrews/Tribes/Jews and Gentiles.
Jews one Race...further divide themselves individually one from another.
Gentiles one Race...further divide themselves individually one from another.

As I said, division is necessary. But it does not obliterate the group. A family and a nation may be divided. But the family and the nation can still remain. Israel fell, and was separated, as a nation, from the family of nations that became Christian. But they can be restored. I don't really know if you were arguing this. But in principle that's what you seemed to be doing.

Salvation is Gift from God, Offered ALL natural born Living men.
How men Receive His Gift ... IS ALWAYS AFTER a bodily DEATH.
A man of Either race (Jew or Gentile) BECOME AS ONE SAME (race no longer a dividing factor), IF and WHEN they receive Gods Gift of Salvation.

Being Reborn means to die to the old man and to begin to live by the new man. But that doesn't mean a human being who is reborn physically died! He doesn't stop having an ethnicity and a nationality. The sense is that the person stops being ruled by things other than the Kingdom of God. Nationality and Ethnicity then comes 2nd, after devotion to the Kingdom of God.
.
Calling oneself “a Christian”, is NOT the deciding factor of WHO receives Gods Gift of Salvation.
Calling oneself “a Christian”, “a Muslim”, “ a Buddhist”, whatever...and they be strangers or family members....it is individuals who DECIDE, to continue relationships or sever relationships, for religious purposes, or entirely.

Yes, individuals choose salvation because they choose Christ--not the nation, nor the ethnicity. But in choosing Christ they do not stop having a nationality and an ethnicity!

It didn’t fall, it became Scattered. Jews still identify as Jews, regardless if they Practice the Jewish Religion, or Any Religion.

What, you're saying Israel and Jerusalem didn't fall? Perhaps I've lost the context of this discussion? Regardless, religious nations ultimate do fall. And Israel certainly did fall. The symbol of their covenant, the holy of holies, showed that covenant was ended with the tearing of the veil. The OT religious system was supposed to be divided from the holy of holies by the veil. But in tearing the veil God showed Israel that Israel religious system under the OT was terminated. And in accordance with Dan 9.26-27, the death of Christ immediately preceded the fall of Jerusalem (70 AD).

God has Not given up on ISRAEL. Once Jesus established His Church, being Taught by Jews, TO Jews and Gentiles, AND Gentiles “took over Christ’s Church”, the Jews relented, and returned to their OLD Laws, OLD Religion. IMO, that was the turning Point, that God BLINDED the Jews, to make the Jews Jealous of the Gentiles Assuming “the Jews God” and the “Jews Messiah”.

Sounds like Replacement Theology? Israel is restored with the proper ethnic group in place, namely the Jewish People. Other ethnicities and nationalities do not replace nor become "Israel."

Since I'm not sure what you're arguing, I'll stop here. Perhaps you can be more clear about what you're opposed to?
 

Truth7t7

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This was not the offering of a pig on the altar, nor was it setting up an abominable idol in the temple area. Rather, it was an army laying siege to the holy city of Jerusalem, and thus desecrating area that the Jews considered holy.

The Romans had already been in the vicinity, but until 66-70 AD they had not threatened to tear down this relic and center of Jewish religion. So, it was in 66-70 AD that the pagan Romans violated their sacred trust by determining to completely annihilate Jewish religion, which was accomplished fully in 70 AD.

This is precisely what Daniel indicated would happen in 9.26-27, an Abomination of Desolation being set up in the holy area surrounding the "city and the sanctuary."
It would result in the destruction of the same. The "people of the ruler to come" were the Romans, who in fact accomplished this deed. Jesus made reference to this very passage.

Matt 24.15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Dan 9.26 the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.... And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation.

There are several uses of "holy place" in the OT Scriptures. Reference to THE holy place is merely a technical application of a particular holy place known to the readers, depending on context. The OT reference to "THE holy place" is always a reference to the temple room known by that name, since that was the regular application of that term under the OT religious system.

But when the language applies "the holy place" to a different context, such as we have in the Olivet Discourse, the technical application must change with the context. Instead of the room in the temple, the application is to "the city and the sanctuary" as a whole, according to its intended focus in Dan 9.26.

"The holy place," therefore, is no longer a reference to a room in the temple. Instead, the context is suggesting not a defamation of the temple and its rooms, nor a committing of idolatrous sacrilege within a holy room of the temple, but rather, a reference to its utter destruction, both buildings and religious system.

The Roman armies laid siege to the entire area, representing an unholy sacrilege in the environment of Jerusalem, with the target being the destruction of the entire set of buildings. None of this has a thing with committing sacrilege in the holy place of the temple, such as installing an idol inside of the temple. That was an earlier picture of what Antiochus 4 did, and we should not confuse the two very different AoDs!
"No" the Roman armies in their 66-70AD Jerusalem events, didn't fulfill Matthew 24:15 or Daniel 9:27 as you claim

Matthew 24:15 Daniel's Abomination is a "Future" event unfulfilled, just as Daniel 9:27 below clearly teaches, the future bad guy will be present on earth to the very "Consummation" or "Ultimate End" a "Future" event unfulfilled, it's that simple, and scripture isn't going to change :)

The words "Even Until The Consummation" destroys your eschatology's claim in 70AD fulfillment "Gone"

Randy you have been shown this scriptural truth several times, yet you continue to teach otherwise

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation


1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end :Finish

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 
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Randy Kluth

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"This Generation" pertains to those future believers, who will be actual eyewitnesses of the signs and second coming, it's that simple

If it was "that simple," we wouldn't be arguing it! ;)

The major theme of Matthew 24 & Luke 21 is the signs and the literal, visible, second coming of Jesus in the heavens

"Future Events Unfulfilled"

Luke 21:26-28KJV
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Well, yes, the Coming of Jesus in glory is indeed a major theme in the Olivet Discourse, but sort of "background" to the prophecy of the fall of Israel's religion in that very generation! Their hearts would surely fail them with the fall of the religion the Jewish People had trusted in, exposing their hearts as fraudulent and dependent upon something failing that they cannot escape from.

Jesus' disciples were to look up when such terrible things happened to Israel, knowing that they have an eternal city in the heavens. They were to "set their minds on things above," and not on things on the earth, where the rule of this present dark world is failing.

This does not mean Israel cannot be restored, but that Jesus' disciples were to put their trust in something less transitory, on the eternal rule of Christ. When he comes back, all will be restored that is worth being restored. They rest will be burned with unquenchable fire, ie will forever pass away from the new earth.
 

Truth7t7

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If it was "that simple," we wouldn't be arguing it! ;)



Well, yes, the Coming of Jesus in glory is indeed a major theme in the Olivet Discourse, but sort of "background" to the prophecy of the fall of Israel's religion in that very generation! Their hearts would surely fail them with the fall of the religion the Jewish People had trusted in, exposing their hearts as fraudulent and dependent upon something failing that they cannot escape from.

Jesus' disciples were to look up when such terrible things happened to Israel, knowing that they have an eternal city in the heavens. They were to "set their minds on things above," and not on things on the earth, where the rule of this present dark world is failing.

This does not mean Israel cannot be restored, but that Jesus' disciples were to put their trust in something less transitory, on the eternal rule of Christ. When he comes back, all will be restored that is worth being restored. They rest will be burned with unquenchable fire, ie will forever pass away from the new earth.
Your symbolic allegory skipped the most important part, the heavens shaking and the literal, visible, second coming of Jesus in the heavens, as believers lift their heads to their Lord and savior Jesus Christ

"Future Events Unfulfilled"!

Luke 21:26-28KJV
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
 

Randy Kluth

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Yet they did not. They did not see any of the events Christ listed.

You admit as much below, by calling these things "generic."

All generations of Christians have seen persecution. That is too generic.
See above.

No they weren't. They occupied the area and had for a long time and would until some foolish Jews decided to stir up some trouble.

You must not read, nor care for, any of the historic commentaries.

Benson Commentary: "And ye shall hear of wars, &c. — This is the second sign. That there were wars and rumours of wars, appears by all the historians of those times, and above all by Josephus."

Which isn't part of the Olivet Discourse.

Of course it was. The Olivet Discourse was the answer to issues Jesus raised up at the temple, and continuing up on the Mt. of Olives. The main issue was the fall of the temple, and the question: when will this transpire?

Your arguments against this amount to more of a diversion than an argument over the issues. You wish to depict the beginning of the conversation about one thing, and the completion of this conversation about something totally different! It doesn't make sense to me.

The Olivet Discourse is only about events just prior to the Great Tribulation, events of the Great Tribulation, and events happening post Great Tribulation.

This isn't even my argument--it is what Jesus explicitly stated! He stated that the Great Tribulation was a *Jewish Punishment* lasting from the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD to the end of the age, when he would return. It is very popular in today's world and among Dispensationalists to believe that the Great Tribulation is the equivalent of the reign of Antichrist. But that's not how Jesus described it. Apparently he wasn't a Dispensationalist!

Don't take me wrong. My own church is Dispensationalist. And nobody, including the pastors, want to talk to me about it. The pastors have said they *must* teach it, whether they agree or not, because it is part of their oath to the denomination, to uphold AoG doctrine.

I've written the AoG leadership on this, and they've refused to answer me--they wish to tackle subjects like this through their local pastors. In other words, nobody in my denomination wishes to discuss the subject with me that I've met so far.

Why is this eschatological system so important to them? Are they afraid of being scrutinized against biblical teaching? Is tradition more important that what Jesus really meant and said?
 
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Randy Kluth

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Your symbolic allegory skipped the most important part, the heavens shaking and the literal, visible, second coming of Jesus in the heavens, as believers lift their heads to their Lord and savior Jesus Christ

"Future Events Unfulfilled"!

Luke 21:26-28KJV
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

I didn't offer up an "allegory." I believe that Jesus will literally come from heaven as a revelation to the earth, exposing all false rule and replace it with the rule of the Kingdom. That will take place at the *end of the age.* I've always said this! I have no clue why you think I believe otherwise, unless you wish to peg me alongside Full Preterists?

My belief that the AoD was the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD was a position held by *non-Preterists* in the Early Church--Preterism itself had not yet been devised!

I was referring to how Jesus wanted his disciples to form their attitude with respect to his Coming. We are to look to his Coming *in all generations,* not by expecting he *could* come at any time, but rather, by focusing on the law of that Kingdom, which is to follow Christ always.

Looking thus to his Kingdom does not require that he actually come, but only expect that he presently judges us, for better or for worse, until we are finally judged for eternity at his Eschatological Coming.
 

ewq1938

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You admit as much below, by calling these things "generic."

But they didn't see the wars and rumors of wars that precede the future Great Tribulation.



You must not read, nor care for, any of the historic commentaries.

They are wrong.



Of course it was. The Olivet Discourse was the answer to issues Jesus raised up at the temple

Nope, completely unrelated.


The main issue was the fall of the temple, and the question: when will this transpire?

The temple was not mentioned one single time in the Olivet Discourse nor did he say when the temple would be destroyed.





This isn't even my argument--it is what Jesus explicitly stated! He stated that the Great Tribulation was a *Jewish Punishment* lasting from the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD to the end of the age, when he would return.

He said no such thing which is why you don't provide any quoted scripture.


It is very popular in today's world and among Dispensationalists to believe that the Great Tribulation is the equivalent of the reign of Antichrist. But that's not how Jesus described it. Apparently he wasn't a Dispensationalist!

They are correct that the antichrist rules during the Great Tribulation, but they are wrong about when the rapture happens.
 

covenantee

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They are wrong.

What to believe?
1. More than 17 centuries of orthodox Christian wisdom and consensus.
or
2. Less than two centuries of modernist dispensational futurized fantasy and fallacy.

Dispensational futurism.
A fantasy of ignorance.
A fallacy of arrogance.
An "abomination of desecration" within the church today.
 
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Enoch111

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Dispensational futurism.
A fantasy of ignorance.
A fallacy of arrogance.
An "abomination of desecration" within the church today.
Seems like you have swallowed the anti-Dispensational propaganda hook, line, and sinker. Dispensationalism should not be mischaracterized to prove a point. That would be "disinformation".
 

covenantee

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Seems like you have swallowed the anti-Dispensational propaganda hook, line, and sinker. Dispensationalism should not be mischaracterized to prove a point. That would be "disinformation".

I've swallowed more than 17 centuries of orthodox Christian wisdom and consensus.

And you?
 

Randy Kluth

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It can validly be translated as "that generation" meaning the generation he was speaking about, not to. "this generation" can also be understood as a generation described not the one listening which is the case.

That's what you're saying without any basis for saying it. You're saying it just because you want to believe it! If I read this in a completely non-partisan, unbiased way, I would think Jesus was speaking of his own generation, period.
 

Randy Kluth

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"No" the Roman armies in their 66-70AD Jerusalem events, didn't fulfill Matthew 24:15 or Daniel 9:27 as you claim

Matthew 24:15 Daniel's Abomination is a "Future" event unfulfilled, just as Daniel 9:27 below clearly teaches, the future bad guy will be present on earth to the very "Consummation" or "Ultimate End" a "Future" event unfulfilled, it's that simple, and scripture isn't going to change :)

The words "Even Until The Consummation" destroys your eschatology's claim in 70AD fulfillment "Gone"

On the contrary, it affirms my connection between the Olivet Discourse and the Dan 9.26-27 passage! Most of what you say here is simply "assertion," which has no value at all, because you're just claiming things without anything to back up your claims.

But your claim that "even until the consummation" has any bearing on this is nonsense. As I've said, the temple was destroyed and Roman Civilization will continue to dominate Israel until the end of the age. That's all this means to me.

Dan 9.27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

The Roman leadership oversaw God's covenant with Israel the last week of 70 weeks of years. That is, it "confirmed the covenant."

This was the period of Christ's ministry. The Law remained in effect with Israel during that time, and the Romans cooperated with it, and oversaw it, allowing Christ to execute God's plan with it.

In the middle of the last 7 year period, the Roman leadership had Christ put to death, terminating the Law with its mandated sacrifices and offerings. This looked forward to the actual destruction of the temple itself, to take place through a Roman army in that very generation, so that sacrifices and offerings could no longer be offered.

The last part here, "even until the consummation," is controversial, and I don't claim to be an expert in the original languages. It might mean that the Roman leadership will dominate Jerusalem until the end of the age--I don't know. But you can't fashion theology over passages where the language itself is unclear.

Randy you have been shown this scriptural truth several times, yet you continue to teach otherwise

There are several ways to read Dan 9.27, and scholars have different views of it. I'm not a scholar. At any rate, I don't see that it has any bearing on my applying this passage to the fall of Jerusalem and the temple, which is explicitly in 9.26.
 

Randy Kluth

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But they didn't see the wars and rumors of wars that precede the future Great Tribulation.

I'm not playing word games. The question was: did Jesus' generation see wars and rumors of wars. The answer: yes they did.

I think we've probably exhausted our conversation at this point. Maybe discussing issues with others will be more fruitful?
 
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ewq1938

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That's what you're saying without any basis for saying it.


Apparently you have not studied the word as I have or you wouldn't say that.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

G3778
οὗτος, οὗτοι, αὕτη, αὕται
houtos houtoi hautē hautai
hoo'-tos, hoo'-toy, how'-tay, how'-tahee
Including the nominative masculine plural (second form), nominative feminine signular (third form), and the nominate feminine plural, (fourth form). From the article G3588 and G846; the he (she or it), that is, this or that (often with the article repeated): - he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.
Total KJV occurrences: 352
 

ewq1938

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I'm not playing word games. The question was: did Jesus' generation see wars and rumors of wars. The answer: yes they did.

All generations see those types of things. They did not see the final ones that precede the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation hasn't started. It is a short period of time not long. The Great Tribulation is against Christians not those of Judaism.
 

Truth7t7

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Their hearts would surely fail them with the fall of the religion the Jewish People had trusted in, exposing their hearts as fraudulent and dependent upon something failing that they cannot escape from.

Jesus' disciples were to look up when such terrible things happened to Israel, knowing that they have an eternal city in the heavens. They were to "set their minds on things above," and not on things on the earth, where the rule of this present dark world is failing.

This does not mean Israel cannot be restored, but that Jesus' disciples were to put their trust in something less transitory, on the eternal rule of Christ. When he comes back, all will be restored that is worth being restored. They rest will be burned with unquenchable fire, ie will forever pass away from the new earth.
Randy you move from the "Literal" interpretation of men's hearts failing because of signs in the sun, moon, stars, distress of the worlds nations,, and the heavens shaken (The End)

Randy you remove this factual literal interpretation, and replace it with your private symbolic "misinterpretation" of men's hearts failing :eek: "because the Jewish religion failed" :confused: that's a big head shake, eyes still rolling :rolleyes:

Luke 21:25-26KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
 
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Truth7t7

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On the contrary, it affirms my connection between the Olivet Discourse and the Dan 9.26-27 passage! Most of what you say here is simply "assertion," which has no value at all, because you're just claiming things without anything to back up your claims.

But your claim that "even until the consummation" has any bearing on this is nonsense. As I've said, the temple was destroyed and Roman Civilization will continue to dominate Israel until the end of the age. That's all this means to me.

Dan 9.27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

The Roman leadership oversaw God's covenant with Israel the last week of 70 weeks of years. That is, it "confirmed the covenant."

This was the period of Christ's ministry. The Law remained in effect with Israel during that time, and the Romans cooperated with it, and oversaw it, allowing Christ to execute God's plan with it.

In the middle of the last 7 year period, the Roman leadership had Christ put to death, terminating the Law with its mandated sacrifices and offerings. This looked forward to the actual destruction of the temple itself, to take place through a Roman army in that very generation, so that sacrifices and offerings could no longer be offered.

The last part here, "even until the consummation," is controversial, and I don't claim to be an expert in the original languages. It might mean that the Roman leadership will dominate Jerusalem until the end of the age--I don't know. But you can't fashion theology over passages where the language itself is unclear.



There are several ways to read Dan 9.27, and scholars have different views of it. I'm not a scholar. At any rate, I don't see that it has any bearing on my applying this passage to the fall of Jerusalem and the temple, which is explicitly in 9.26.
Direct Question:
Randy Will You Deny That "The Consummation" Seen Below Is "The Ultimate End"?


Matthew 24:15 Daniel's Abomination is a "Future" event unfulfilled, just as Daniel 9:27 below clearly teaches, the future bad guy will be present on earth to the very "Consummation" or "Ultimate End" a "Future" event unfulfilled, it's that simple, and scripture isn't going to change :)

The words "Even Until The Consummation" destroys your eschatology's claim in 70AD fulfillment "Gone"

Randy you have been shown this scriptural truth several times, yet you continue to teach otherwise

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation


1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end :Finish

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 
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Truth7t7

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I'm not playing word games. The question was: did Jesus' generation see wars and rumors of wars. The answer: yes they did.

I think we've probably exhausted our conversation at this point. Maybe discussing issues with others will be more fruitful?
"NO" the generation of Jesus didn't witness Matthew 24:15 Daniel's AOD, Matthew 24:21The Great Tribulation, or Matthew 24:30 The Literal, Visible, Return Of Jesus In The Heavens, These Are Future Events Unfulfilled
 
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