What if you lose your faith?

[Carl Emerson]

Which is a good reason to keep believing. For if we deny him in unbelief that very same passage you're referring to says he will deny us. Which brings us back to the question of whether or not a true believer can not only be unfaithful but also deny Christ in a willing and purposeful unbelief.

Well Jeremiah spoke directly about this...

Jer 32
40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts, so that they will not turn away from Me.

 

[Carl Emerson]

We walk in His Works because we are saved.

We are not saved because we walk in works.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

how does a OSAS or non-OSAS beliefs cause one to think they have the Holy Spirit when they don't? And how would this be any different from anything else someone might tell themself? Do you know what I'm asking?

What happens is people who say they got saved but don't live for God don't recognize that they are in unbelief because they have been told that nothing you can do can cause you to lose your salvation. And so they don't realize they are in unbelief and think they are saved and ready to meet Jesus when he comes back. OSAS causes people to think they have the Holy Spirit when they actually may not at all.

 

[Carl Emerson]

What happens is people who say they got saved but don't live for God don't recognize that they are in unbelief because they have been told that nothing you can do can cause you to lose your salvation. And so they don't realize they are in unbelief and think they are saved and ready to meet Jesus when he comes back. OSAS causes people to think they have the Holy Spirit when they actually may not at all.

OSAS does not cause people to think they have the Holy Spirit when they don't.

The discussion then needs to be about - what is born again...

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I said...

↑
The indwelling presence of the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord seals against rejecting Christ.

You said...
"Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. That is the crux of whether or not OSAS is true. "

You sound ...

What I'm about is at what state of relationship a person must be at so they cannot turn back to unbelief. Jesus speaks in terms of how firmly rooted the word is in a person, not a cut and dry moment of conversion. I know of a person who had a legit, undeniable gift of the Spirit who fell away into unbelief. It's left a lot of questions open for me about at what point a person is not going to go back to unbelief. Because I do believe that point does exist. It's a matter of how mature a person is in their relationship with the Lord.

so here is a scripture that confirms it.

Jeremiah speaking of the New Covenant.

32:
40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts, so that they will not turn away from Me.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

That's a very good passage. But, apparently, the NT writers did not see it as a hard and fast OSAS promise, for they exhort believers to keep believing as if they could in fact fall away into unbelief.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

OSAS does not cause people to think they have the Holy Spirit when they don't.

I beg to differ with you. That person I mentioned who had a legit gift of the Spirit but who fell away into unbelief and their old life of sin said to me, "Once saved always saved."

The discussion then needs to be about - what is born again...

Yes, what does it look like to be born again and how you know you are? The church does not talk about this because it is erroneously viewed as 'judging'.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I beg to differ with you. That person I mentioned who had a legit gift of the Spirit but who fell away into unbelief and their old life of sin said to me, "Once saved always saved."

What does that prove exactly ?

Folks said I was beyond salvation...

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Because you are not sure IF you will hold firmly to the Word.

The assurance of salvation is not that you'll always believe. The assurance of salvation is that if you believe, God is faithful to save you. Remember, your statement above is in direct response to the words of the Bible, not mine (1 Corinthians 15:1-2). The 'ifs' of salvation come from scripture, not from me or some church doctrine.

 

[Brakelite]

What if you lose your faith?

Are we not saved by grace through faith? If you lose your faith, how can you touch grace?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

What does that prove exactly ?

Folks said I was beyond salvation...

Well, I thought that was kind of obvious. This person received a spiritual gift indicating the presence of the Spirit in salvation, but then fell away into bonafide unbelief, not doubt or struggle with sin.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

He reads... "in Christ", as "license to Sin".
He reads "blood bought" as "cheap grace".

No, there is no such thing as grace being a license to sin or cheap grace People who think grace is that are kidding themselves. They will see how wrong they were on the day Christ returns.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The assurance of salvation is not that you'll always believe. The assurance of salvation is that if you believe God is faithful to save you. Remember, your statement above is in direct response to the words of the Bible, not mine (1 Corinthians 15:1-2). The 'ifs' of salvation come from scripture, not from me or some church doctrine.

You realise that Paul's audience included Wheat and Tares. The if's applied to a mixture of adherents some of whom left the fellowship and were lost to legalism among other things.

I am saying that assurance for those truely born again has no if's.

John confirmed this in 1 John 5.

God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

By the way John unlike Paul was writing to the elect...

 

[farouk]

Done that, many times. Again, the Bible tells us that those who are born again continue in faith. Those who are not have their faith shown to be a dead faith, some mental or emotional response, but not the reliance of trusting in Jesus.

If you are born again, you do not die again. Children of God will be like Christ when they see Him. If you were raised with Him you will appear with Him. On and on it goes. Christ is made unto you righteousness and sanctification, and on and on, our reconciliation is in Him, what He did, not what we do, and our recreation unites us to our Creator and God, Who does what He promised, gives to us eternal and everlasting life.

P - Perserverance of the saints.

Tulip: Perseverance of the Saints
This all speaks to the “P” in Calvinism’s acronym, TULIP, the "Perseverance of the Saints"; [5] and it is a blessed assurance. Because God is preserving and perfecting you, you will persevere unto the finish line into perfection. By God’s grace, Philippians 1:19-20 is your ongoing testimony![6]

TULIP - Perseverance of the Saints
By reason of these remains of indwelling sin, and the temptations of sin and of the world, those who are converted could not persevere in a state of grace if left to their own strength. But God is faithful, who having conferred grace, mercifully confirms and powerfully preserves them therein, even to the end. – THE CANONS OF DORT, “Fifth Head of Doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints,” Article 3.1

What is TULIP in Calvinism?
Perseverance of the Saints – That we are so secure in Christ, that we cannot fall away. Jesus will not lose any who had been given to him by the Father (John 6:38-39); he gives eternal life to them so they will never perish (John 3:16; 10:27-28), and those who leave the faith were never believers to begin with (1 John 2:19).

Perseverance of the Saints - is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org
Perseverance of the saints is the name that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the eternal security of the believer. It answers the question, “Once a person is saved, can he lose his salvation?” Perseverance of the saints is the P in the acronym TULIP, which is commonly used to enumerate what are known as the five points of Calvinism. Because the term “perseverance of the saints” can cause people to have the wrong idea about what is meant, some people prefer to use terms like “preservation of the saints,” “eternal security,” or “held by God.” Each of these terms reveals some aspect of what the Bible teaches about the security of the believer. However, like any biblical doctrine, what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how accurately it summarizes what the Bible teaches about that subject. No matter which name you use to refer to this important doctrine, a thorough study of the Bible will reveal that, when it is properly understood, it is an accurate description of what the Bible teaches.

That we will continue in our believing because we are His true children, or that we have to continue in our believing if we are going to continue to be His Children.

Much love!

@marks Philippians 1.6 - on @Eternally Grateful 's avatar - is a good verse to show how true faith continues and is sustained by the Lord Himself.....

 

[farouk]

The indwelling presence of the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord seals against rejecting Christ.

@Carl Emerson Romans 8.9 indeed shows how all true believers are indwelt by the Spirit of Christ.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The assurance of salvation is not that you'll always believe. The assurance of salvation is that if you believe God is faithful to save you.

That sounds like OSAS - careful...

 

[Carl Emerson]

Well, I thought that was kind of obvious. This person received a spiritual gift indicating the presence of the Spirit in salvation, but then fell away into bonafide unbelief, not doubt or struggle with sin.

Sorry please refer me to the post...

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

OSAS is Biblical.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You realise that Paul's audience included Wheat and Tares. The if's applied to a mixture of adherents some of whom left the fellowship and were lost to legalism among other things.

Yes, I'm familiar with the argument that he is talking to the unsaved people in the church. But that argument falls to pieces in the case of John when he speaks about this matter of holding onto the word of the gospel to his church:

"23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father." 1 John 2:23-24​

Who's the "As for you"? These people... ↓↓↓

"12I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven through His name.13I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who is from the beginning.

I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one.b

I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.14I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who is from the beginning.

I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.
19They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.20You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.c 21I have not written to you because you lack knowledge of the truth, but because you have it, and because no lie comes from the truth." 1 John 2:12-21​

Confirmed born again, saved believers, that's who! Note especially vs. 14. OSAS says he's talking to the people who don't really have the word abiding in them, in other words, not really saved. That's just not true according to vs. 14. So, we can easily see from the context that he's telling people he has called out as saved to let the word remain in them, and IF they do they will remain in the Son, the Father, and the hope of eternal life. So the OSAS argument for 'he's warning the unsaved among them' just doesn't hold any water.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

OSAS is Biblical.

The word calls it eternal life

And John said we can KNOW we HAVE IT. And because it it. Empower is to continue in faith.

Satan does not want us to see that. He wants us to think we can lose eternal life. So we will lack faith and maybe even walk away.

 

[farouk]

The word calls it eternal life

And John said we can KNOW we HAVE IT. And because it it. Empower is to continue in faith.

John's First Epistle is strong on assurance for the true believer.