What if you lose your faith?

[Ferris Bueller]

That sounds like OSAS - careful...

I know it sounds that way to you. But if you'll open up your paradigm of thought you'll see that I'm saying the sure promise of God is conditional on believing, and believing that continues to the very end. The security of salvation is in the sureness and efficacy of Christ's ministry, not in you always holding fast to it.

The assurance of salvation is not that you'll always believe. The assurance of salvation is that if you believe God is faithful to save you.

See, Biblically, what is steadfast, sure, and everlasting is Christ's ministry, not your possession of the efficacy of Christ's ministry. This is easily seen in Hebrews 10. But Christians read about the everlasting quality of Christ and his ministry and immediately assume that means they can't lose it. No, it means it will always be there for you and accomplish what God set out for it to do...IF you'll remain in it by faith.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

John's First Epistle is strong on assurance for the true believer.

Yes, for the true ABIDING believer. Not the believer who stops believing.

This is a paradigm shift for the OSAS mindset that can only see one possible understanding of these scriptures that OSAS is sure proves it's case. It's just not so. There is another way to legitimately look at these passages. Few OSAS people can even see this other way, let alone agree with it. It's quite frustrating, but I'm usually patient because I understand from my own experience that sometimes it takes time for alternate views of things to be seen by us who have already made up our minds about various matters. I remember talking to one woman who looked right at Romans 11:20 and continued to insist that we do not have to fear God. It was quite entertaining, but it illustrated well the power of an indoctrination. It can make you look right past the plain words of scripture.

 

[stephen64]

I beg to differ with you. That person I mentioned who had a legit gift of the Spirit but who fell away into unbelief and their old life of sin said to me, "Once saved always saved."


Yes, what does it look like to be born again and how you know you are? The church does not talk about this because it is erroneously viewed as 'judging'.

May I add something here.
Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. luke8:13&14

In the first example, people made a commitment, they received the word with joy, and went on their way. But, because they made a shallow commitment they fell away when things got hard. Now, you would have to turn scripture on its head to say those people had not been placed in a saved state. If you go on your christian way, and then fall away, you obviously fell away from the faith.
But in the next example, we see people become christians, but they keep getting side tracked from the path by lifes worries, riches and pleasures, as many of us do at times get side tracked from the path we should be on by one thing and another. Jesus did not say these people fell away, but rather they did not mature in the faith. For you mature by evermore practicing right from wrong
So to sum up, the people who made a shallow commitment did walk away from the faith, whilst others, who kept getting sidetracked from firmly staying on the path they should have been on did not. We could say, no OSAS for the first group, But OSAS for the second group

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Sorry please refer me to the post...

↓↓↓

I beg to differ with you. That person I mentioned who had a legit gift of the Spirit but who fell away into unbelief and their old life of sin said to me, "Once saved always saved."

 

[Ferris Bueller]

May I add something here.
Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. luke8:13&14

In the first example, people made a commitment, they received the word with joy, and went on their way. But, because they made a shallow commitment they fell away when things got hard. Now, you would have to turn scripture on its head to say those people had not been placed in a saved state. If you go on your christian way, and then fall away, you obviously fell away from the faith.
But in the next example, we see people become christians, but they keep getting side tracked from the path by lifes worries, riches and pleasures, as many of us do at times get side tracked from the path we should be on by one thing and another. Jesus did not say these people fell away, but rather they did not mature in the faith. For you mature by evermore practicing right from wrong
So to sum up, the people who made a shallow commitment did walk away from the faith, whilst others, who kept getting sidetracked from firmly staying on the path they should have been on did not. We could say, no OSAS for the first group, But OSAS for the second group

This pretty much sums up where I'm at with it. OSAS is a place that the believer matures to. Not all believers are there. Some believers would rather burn at the stake than renounce Christ. Others are ready to throw in the towel after a bad day at work.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I'm sorry, I missed this point in your post:

By the way John unlike Paul was writing to the elect...

I am saying that assurance for those truely born again has no if's.

John confirmed this in 1 John 5.

God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

And yet John says to these born again people, "if".

You say, as a born again person, that offers no assurance to you. Your resistance to the 'if' of remaining in salvation is with John.

 

[amigo de christo]

I know it sounds that way to you. But if you'll open up your paradigm of thought you'll see that I'm saying the sure promise of God is conditional on believing, and believing that continues to the very end. The security of salvation is in the sureness and efficacy of Christ's ministry, not in you always holding fast to it.

See, Biblically, what is steadfast, sure, and everlasting is Christ's ministry, not your possession of the efficacy of Christ's ministry. This is easily seen in Hebrews 10. But Christians read about the everlasting quality of Christ and his ministry and immediately assume that means they can't lose it. No, it means it will always be there for you and accomplish what God set out for it to do...IF you'll remain in it by faith.

Hold fast to the author and finisher of our faith .
Many hold fast to an acroynm , but i say hold fast to HE who is the Savoir and take all His warnings and reminders as good for the soul .
Every reminder JESUS gave IS TRULY GOOD for our souls . And we need to hear them and be reminded .
Trusting in HIS every Word . Everything that was left to us by the early church , I HAVE FOUND AS GOOD FOR THE SOUL
and HOW it does keep one sharp and alert and diligent in the walk . We ought to not diminish one word of it , but rather heed
and believe it . Heeding the Spirit which would have us planted in His teachings and all that HE did inspire even through
the apostels . Every letter is for our good . Not one letter is to be omitted . NOT one letter . THEY were written to the CHURCH .
Thus it applies to THE CHURCH .

 

[amigo de christo]

I'm sorry, I missed this point in your post:




And yet John says to these born again people, "if".

You say, as a born again person, that offers no assurance to you. Your resistance to the 'if' of remaining in salvation is with John.

See , that is my point . Due to the love of an acroynm they try and make it seem as though somehow
what JOHN taught was to the elect , while what paul taught was not . YET BOTH JOHN , PAUL , Jude , james , peter
WERE WRITING TO THE CHURCH , WHICH IS THE ELECT OF GOD .
Many will die and omit scripture for the sake of an acroynm . While i simply say , HEED ALL THE LETTERS
they are for our own good . You can easily see how the teachings of men have taught some to omit certain parts of scrips .
WHICH is bad news . WE should have embraced it all .
I mean they claim GOD put together the scriptures , YET THEN turn around and say certain parts of said scriptures DONT APPLY TO US .
NOW how on earth WOULD THAT make any sense . GOD knew what he was doing when HE had ALL , not some or most
BUT ALL those letters put together in canon . CAUSE IT ALL APPLIES TO US .

 

[Marymog]

Thank you for your question.

So....If you have to earn or keep salvation, then why did Jesus die on the Cross for you.?...

Good Morning Behold,

WE have to EARN salvation because scripture says WE do:

He who endures to the end will be saved....I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
baptism now saves you..... Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved....faith without works is dead. etc etc

Those passages do not negate what He did for us. It does not have to be one or the other. It can be both.....

Jesus told us WHY he died on the cross for us.......John 15:13!

Thank you Jesus....

 

[Ferris Bueller]

WE have to EARN salvation because scripture says WE do:

In Romans 4, what did Paul say Abraham, our example of justification by faith without works, do to earn salvation?

 

[Marymog]

In Romans 4, what did Paul say Abraham, our example of justification by faith without works, do to earn salvation?

Good question Mr. Bueller!

Does Abrahams alleged "justification by faith without works" cancel out "faith without works is dead"? Are you suggesting the bible contradicts itself?

Quoting from Scripture, can you pin point the moment when Abraham believed? Since this was such a momentous occasion in the drama of salvation history, it should be clearly shown when Abraham actually believed and was reckoned as righteous—from unbelief to belief, from no faith to real faith.

Paul quotes from Genesis 15, but is that where Abraham first believed God? What about in Genesis 12? Doesn’t Hebrews 11:8 tell us, “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. (KJV). Was this some other kind of faith? We see here an obedience based on faith. Abraham built altars to God on the plain of Moreh (Gn. 12:6, 7), in Bethel (Gn. 12:8), and Hebron (Gn. 13:18). During this time by faith “he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God” (Heb. 11:10). What makes this confusing is that it takes place before his justification in Genesis 15.

There were many years, probably more than ten years, between his first mentioned demonstration of saving faith and the subsequent declaration of righteous in Genesis 15. At what point did his faith save him Mr. Bueller? It appears to be a process of faith and obedience!

James references Abraham and seemingly gives another perspective on Abraham’s righteousness. James thinks Abraham was not justified in Genesis 15 or 17, but much later in Genesis 22, when he offered up Isaac. He states, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (James 2:21 KJV). And then James is bold enough to say, “So you see, a man is justified by his works, and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24)

With that said if YOU want to cherry pick Scripture and take it out of context to support what you have been taught by your men then by all means go ahead. I prefer to read ALL of Scripture IN CONTEXT!

Bible Study Mary

 

[marks]

What happens is people who say they got saved but don't live for God don't recognize that they are in unbelief because they have been told that nothing you can do can cause you to lose your salvation. And so they don't realize they are in unbelief and think they are saved and ready to meet Jesus when he comes back. OSAS causes people to think they have the Holy Spirit when they actually may not at all.

How does telling someone that being born again is forever cause them to think they have received the Holy Spirit when they haven't?

I don't see how you are answering that question. Unless you are suggesting that it means someone just won't care? Is that what you are saying? That OSAS = Complacency?

Much love!

 

[marks]

people who say they got saved but don't live for God don't recognize that they are in unbelief because they have been told that nothing you can do can cause you to lose your salvation.

Again, what the Bible says about how you know you are His if you have His Spirit in you, not if you have a good opinion of your behavior. These are very different things.

Salvation is a relationship with God, not a fix for behavioral problems, although He'll do that too.

You realize the Placebo Effect, right? Tell someone they've been saved, that now they are to live better lives, and they go about cleaning up their act, even if they've never met God?

Will you tell them, "OK, you've kicked drugs, you've married your girlfriend, you paid that money back . . . OK, You're good with God!"

Much love!

 

[marks]

Confirmed born again, saved believers, that's who!

You posted the passage right there, and still you missed it.

They went out because they were not true.

You bring doubt against God's children, and that is not good.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

Terrific question, if ppl COULD truly answer this in honesty w/o the preface of I'm OSAS, I'm Baptist ect. ect or I believe blah blah, then there would unity in the body of Christ !

Actually, if people could understand that there is no such thing as OSAS, then the idiots who rant about OSAS because they don't trust in Christ to keep them saved, might go away.
See its the OSAS obsessed, who have to talk about it, compulsively, who ruin Christian Forums with their self saving legalism heresy.

 

[Behold]

. JESUS even said IF a man continues not in ME HE will be cast out . .

Romans 4:8

 

[Behold]

Which is a good reason to keep believing. For if we deny him in unbelief that very same passage you're referring to says he will deny us.

JESUS can't deny you if you are born again.
How do you know?
Because He is already IN the Born again.

You should take a break from your legalism.
Its really become your obsession.

 

[amigo de christo]

Romans 4:8

PRAISE GOD FOR CHRIST . What a lovely reminder you gave . Now Continue in the faith , continue in Christ to the end .
that too is a lovely reminder . IF JESUS gave it , and the apostels sounded it out , I DONT see why its sin to do so today .

 

[amigo de christo]

In Romans 4, what did Paul say Abraham, our example of justification by faith without works, do to earn salvation?

I see the problem . Folks like behold and BB see US as they see this mary mog . YET ME NOR YOU said we EARN salvation .
THE problem is they took the extreme of the CC and then they went to the OTHER EXTREME .
So far to the extreme that now if folks even dare to remind folks about Continuing to the end and what happens if they dont , AS PETER SAID
and they now make that all legalism . Both sides have went to the dead extreme and fallen far from the truth .
THE TRUTH IS IN THE BIBLE . I say we simply learn and heed all things written .

 

[amigo de christo]

JESUS can't deny you if you are born again.
How do you know?
Because He is already IN the Born again.

You should take a break from your legalism.
Its really become your obsession.

IF one is born again BY THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST , OF GOD , THEN WHY would they not heed ALL HIS WARNINGS .
The problem is most folks aint born again . I KEEP saying we better open BIBLES and stop reading them
through the lens of men , and just start reading it for ourselves .