Imagine a World with no Christians!

[ewq1938]

See this is what you said...

Duh. This isn't evidence that I changed anything. Humans HAVE A SPIRIT of their own and those who are saved can also have the Holy Spirit.

 

[James Macbeth]

Duh. This isn't evidence that I changed anything. Humans HAVE A SPIRIT of their own and those who are saved can also have the Holy Spirit.

I said like the holy Ghost, and you said no.
Plain as the on your face.

 

[ewq1938]

I said like the holy Ghost, and you said no.
Plain as the on your face.

Your reading comprehension isn't good enough to engage with me so this ends now.

 

[James Macbeth]

Your reading comprehension isn't good enough to engage with me so this ends now.

Ok.

 

[Timtofly]

Hogwash.

You can get Josephus writings in both languages. The Romans used Greek scribes as slaves in scriptoriums.

The New Testament was written in Aramaic... A descendant of Hebrew...for the Jews, not Greeks.

Paul wrote to the people who lived in Corinth, which history shows were mostly Romans who spoke Latin. They rebuilt the city in 44AD.
Saint Paul wrote his letters around 50-54 AD. Why would he write them in Greek, when he could speak any language.

Latin was very much alive then.

The rest of your story is BS.

No, you just have nothing to refute what I posted. Perhaps you should study some more on the topic or prove I am wrong. Just yelling "no", is not a rebuttal.

Prove yourself the language of the original letter, instead of playing mind games and calling the majority of manuscripts ever composed in error.

Why would Jerome even need to translate into Latin, if there were Latin manuscripts being circulated by the church?

 

[James Macbeth]

No, you just have nothing to refute what I posted. Perhaps you should study some more on the topic or prove I am wrong. Just yelling "no", is not a rebuttal.

Prove yourself the language of the original letter, instead of playing mind games and calling the majority of manuscripts ever composed in error.

Why would Jerome even need to translate into Latin, if there were Latin manuscripts being circulated by the church?

Saint Jerome had access to the library of Caesarea, which housed over 30,000 manuscripts....

That library was burnt by the Muslims.

Saint Jerome had his reasons for the update.

 

[James Macbeth]

Come, come. It establishes that the rapture was being taught by the early church prior to Jerome's translation of the epistle into Latin, and therefore gives credence to the traditional interpretation of the church on the rapture; that this is what the NT writers were likewise teaching, as is apparent from the Greek texts.

Still...

1. The Rapture does not hinge on 1 Corinthians 15:51.

2. Jerome had access to the to the library of Caesarea, which housed over 30,000 manuscripts.

3. There are no cross-references to other parts of the Bible, using that Greek variant.

Examples proving Jerome:

Isaiah 26:19
Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.

John 11:23-25
Your brother will rise again, Jesus told her. Martha replied: I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said to her: I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?

Hosea 6:2
After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will raise us up,
that we may live before him.

1 Samuel 2:6
The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up.

John 5:21
For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.

4. The Greek Variant is in line with the other teachings of Saint Paul, I'll give you that; and Saint Chrysostom reads from that same Greek Variant.

5. But Saint Jerome's translation is in line with what Jesus our Lord taught.
Mat 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
1 Cor 15:51
Behold I tell you a mystery: We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed.
*This is the reading of the Latin Vulgate, and of some Greek manuscripts, and the sense is, that all both good & bad shall rise, but only the elect to the happy change of a glorified body (Haydock note).

6. The Spanish Bible, translated from the Old Latin Bible has:
He aquí, un misterioos digo: Todos ciertamente resucitaremos, mas no todos seremos mudados.
And the translators had access to the Textus Receptus & Syriac manuscripts (Which have the variant), and chose to go with the old Latin here in this verse.

7. We'll have to agree to disagree on that verse.

 

[Keraz]

1 Cor 15:51
Behold I tell you a mystery: We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed.

Why is there so much disagreement about 1 Corinthians 15:50-56?
Because that prophecy is about what happens at the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium Revelation 20:11-15
Proved by how it is then that Death is no more. Revelation 21:4

At the GWT Judgment; ALL the dead since Adam, will rise to stand before God, but those who will still be alive at that time, are also Judged and if their names are found in the book of Life, they will be instantly changed into immortality.
Those whose names are not found in the Book of Life; dead or alive, will go into the Lake of Fire.

Any notions of 1 Cor. 15:50-56, taking place before the end of the Millennium, is error and will not happen.

 

[ewq1938]

Why is there so much disagreement about 1 Corinthians 15:50-56?
Because that prophecy is about what happens at the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium Revelation 20:11-15
Proved by how it is then that Death is no more. Revelation 21:4

At the GWT Judgment; ALL the dead since Adam, will rise to stand before God, but those who will still be alive at that time, are also Judged and if their names are found in the book of Life, they will be instantly changed into immortality.
Those whose names are not found in the Book of Life; dead or alive, will go into the Lake of Fire.

Any notions of 1 Cor. 15:50-56, taking place before the end of the Millennium, is error and will not happen.

It's not error. The last trump is the 7th trump when Christ returns. That is when the dead are raised as immortals and the living saved become immortal.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Here the dead are mentioned and those who shall change is specifically about those who are changed to immortals then raptured:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Second coming reference.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

"the coming of the Lord" is a second coming reference.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Since 1Th 4:14-15 proves the context is the second coming, and the dead are raised, we then know 1Co 15:52 is speaking of the same exact timeframe and the dead are raised incorruptible. All these things happen at the 7th and last trump, not after the Millennium.

 

[James Macbeth]

Why is there so much disagreement about 1 Corinthians 15:50-56?
Because that prophecy is about what happens at the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium Revelation 20:11-15
Proved by how it is then that Death is no more. Revelation 21:4

At the GWT Judgment; ALL the dead since Adam, will rise to stand before God, but those who will still be alive at that time, are also Judged and if their names are found in the book of Life, they will be instantly changed into immortality.
Those whose names are not found in the Book of Life; dead or alive, will go into the Lake of Fire.

Any notions of 1 Cor. 15:50-56, taking place before the end of the Millennium, is error and will not happen.

We are only debating 1 cor 15:51.
There is a variant between the Latin and Greek Text.

 

[MatthewG]

If we didn't have a world with Christians in it.

Jesus would have never came being the Word made into flesh.

There would have been no universal salvation from the death of Christ.

If Christ never came, Material religion would have never came to a destruction ( being ridden of ) - we would still have to sacrifice every year, in the temple, and that is all there is to that.

Thankfully Jesus Christ did come! And how amazing is it everything he has accomplished for all the WORLD. :)

 

[James Macbeth]

It's not error. The last trump is the 7th trump when Christ returns. That is when the dead are raised as immortals and the living saved become immortal.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Here the dead are mentioned and those who shall change is specifically about those who are changed to immortals then raptured:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Second coming reference.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

"the coming of the Lord" is a second coming reference.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Since 1Th 4:14-15 proves the context is the second coming, and the dead are raised, we then know 1Co 15:52 is speaking of the same exact timeframe and the dead are raised incorruptible. All these things happen at the 7th and last trump, not after the Millennium.

Mat 25:31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened...And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.... ...Then two men will be in the field; one will be assumed and one rejected. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be assumed and one rejected...

 

[James Macbeth]

Why is there so much disagreement about 1 Corinthians 15:50-56?
Because that prophecy is about what happens at the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium Revelation 20:11-15
Proved by how it is then that Death is no more. Revelation 21:4

At the GWT Judgment; ALL the dead since Adam, will rise to stand before God, but those who will still be alive at that time, are also Judged and if their names are found in the book of Life, they will be instantly changed into immortality.
Those whose names are not found in the Book of Life; dead or alive, will go into the Lake of Fire.

Any notions of 1 Cor. 15:50-56, taking place before the end of the Millennium, is error and will not happen.

Exodus 19:16
On the third day, when morning came, there was thunder and lightning. A thick cloud was upon the mountain, and a very loud blast of the ram's horn went out, so that all the people in the camp trembled.

Deuteronomy 30:4
Even if you have been banished to the farthest horizon, He will gather you and return you from there.

Isaiah 27:13
And in that day a great ram's horn will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.

Psalm 81:3
Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.

 

[Keraz]

We are only debating 1 cor 15:51.
There is a variant between the Latin and Greek Text.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen! I will unfold a mystery: We shall not all die, but we shall be changed. REBible.

This plainly stated prophecy of Paul's, is about what happens at the GWT Judgment, when the Book of Life is opened.
There will be some people present then who are still alive and in their mortal bodies, at the end of the thousand year reign of King Jesus. THEY will be instantly transformed to immortality, provided their names are in the Book.

Exodus 19:16
On the third day, when morning came, there was thunder and lightning. A thick cloud was upon the mountain, and a very loud blast of the ram's horn went out, so that all the people in the camp trembled.

Deuteronomy 30:4
Even if you have been banished to the farthest horizon, He will gather you and return you from there.

Isaiah 27:13
And in that day a great ram's horn will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.

Psalm 81:3
Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.

Many trumpets, much confusion.
There will be only one Last Trumpet. The loud blast, which will call up all the dead for Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15

 

[GRACE ambassador]

We shall all rise again (judgement), but we shall not all be changed (not all will be saved) I have not studied this before, I just noticed the difference in Text.

The Rapture might be from sunset August 11th unto sunset September 25th; the day, hour, or year no man knows. But that is the season of the Fig tree, talked about by our Lord Jesus.
I will post more information later.

Quite interesting that you have not "studied it before," yet you can determine a
date range for it???

Ok that's all good, but what does that have to do with I Corinthians 15:51.

The Rapture does not hinge on I Corinthians 15:51.

Precious friend, looks as IF we are studying the rapture? Debating 1Co 15:51-52,
Which Is, In Biblical Fact, a part of our Great GRACE Departure (aka rapture):

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep,
but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling
of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be
changed." (1Co 15:51-52)​

Also, with Holy Spirit Guidance (2Co 2:13 #5c of Bible study Rules),
Always Compare Related Scriptures:

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning
them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which
have no hope. For if we believe that JESUS died and rose again,
even so them also which sleep in JESUS Will God Bring With Him.

For this we say unto you by The Word of The LORD, that we which
are alive and remain unto the coming of The LORD shall not prevent
them which are asleep.

For The LORD Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with
the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the
dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet The
LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with The LORD."
(1Th 4:13-17)
​

Precious friend, you do realize, of course, that "taking These Passages"
Out Of God's Context, and trying to read Them in "where they do not
belong," instead of Rightly

Dividing (2 Timothy 2:15) Them From “Things That Differ” (online)

is definitely going to Cause Confusion. See below...

Maybe. I'll look into it.
I mostly study the Gospels.

That's good, we learn Much from them, but we Also study God's Words To Paul, for
us, Under GRACE Today, And prayerfully and Carefully Note the "Distinctions."
See below...

Mat 25:31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened...And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.... ...Then two men will be in the field; one will be assumed and one rejected. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be assumed and one rejected...

Yes, correct, found in God's Context of prophecy/law... Now we can study/Note:

Part I

God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding
In This Thy Most Important Doctrine For our Comfort And Consolation.
Amen. (1 Thessalonians 4:18)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With The
Second Coming, is found in God's Context:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world”
(Matthew 25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In God's Other Context:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9!)

-------------------

The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew 24:29; Revelation 19:16, 11!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On
His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!),
His armies * on white horses! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth With ONE army *, “All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:11, 15)

(5) With Another trumpet (AFTER "the 7th angel trumpet” in heaven), on
the earth, Angels Are SENT, By The KING, TO: “gather the elect”...
(Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27!)

(6)...for the “judgment of the Earthly Nations” By The Son of man, The King!
(Matthew 25:31-46!)

(7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous
then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!
(Matthew 25:34-46!)

To be continued...

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Part II

(Previously) The Second Coming, According to earthly Prophecy:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians 1:19-23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1 Thessalonians 4:16!)

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13!)

(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53!)

(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 5:1-2;
Ephesians 1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans 2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1 Corinthians 3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10;
Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:24-25!)

(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians 5:27!)

(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven, Where we Live * Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, 22;
1 Corinthians 6:3; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 KJB!)

* Note, The ONE army Of The Body Of CHRIST, Must "have been
assigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning! Amen?

---------------------------------------------------------------
LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious BLOOD,
Gift Of ETERNAL Salvation, And for Your Blessed Hope of
Glorification When You Come To Finally Gather us Home! Amen.
---------------------------------------------------------
Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

GRACE And Peace! The apostle of GRACE (2 Min With The BIBLE)

Precious friend(s), see you In God's Great GloryLand!! ♫ :) ↑

 

[James Macbeth]

What can I say, I'm a quick learner.
I'll tell you how I came up with those dates, later. I'm at the office now, no time.
But remember, I'm not saying the hour day or year.
Could be this year, next year, or 10 years from now...

 

[Hidden In Him]

Still...

1. The Rapture does not hinge on 1 Corinthians 15:51... [and] There are no cross-references to other parts of the Bible, using that Greek variant.

That's correct. The rapture doctrine hinges more so on 1 Thessalonians 4. Jerome has it as follows in the Vulgate:

13 And we will not have you ignorant brethren, concerning them that are asleep, that you be not sorrowful, even as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again: even so them who have slept through Jesus, will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them who have slept. 16 For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord. 18 Wherefore, comfort ye one another with these words.

 

[Timtofly]

Saint Jerome had access to the library of Caesarea, which housed over 30,000 manuscripts....

That library was burnt by the Muslims.

Saint Jerome had his reasons for the update.

There is no proof they were in Latin and not Greek. Why was Jerome working on a Latin translation if there were already 30,000 Latin translations in circulation?

 

[Timtofly]

Still...

1. The Rapture does not hinge on 1 Corinthians 15:51.

2. Jerome had access to the to the library of Caesarea, which housed over 30,000 manuscripts.

3. There are no cross-references to other parts of the Bible, using that Greek variant.

Examples proving Jerome:

Isaiah 26:19
Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.

John 11:23-25
Your brother will rise again, Jesus told her. Martha replied: I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said to her: I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?

Hosea 6:2
After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will raise us up,
that we may live before him.

1 Samuel 2:6
The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up.

John 5:21
For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.

4. The Greek Variant is in line with the other teachings of Saint Paul, I'll give you that; and Saint Chrysostom reads from that same Greek Variant.

5. But Saint Jerome's translation is in line with what Jesus our Lord taught.
Mat 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
1 Cor 15:51
Behold I tell you a mystery: We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed.
*This is the reading of the Latin Vulgate, and of some Greek manuscripts, and the sense is, that all both good & bad shall rise, but only the elect to the happy change of a glorified body (Haydock note).

6. The Spanish Bible, translated from the Old Latin Bible has:
He aquí, un misterioos digo: Todos ciertamente resucitaremos, mas no todos seremos mudados.
And the translators had access to the Textus Receptus & Syriac manuscripts (Which have the variant), and chose to go with the old Latin here in this verse.

7. We'll have to agree to disagree on that verse.

I think you miss the point that a resurrection of all OT redeemed souls happened at the Cross. Who claims souls were left in sheol in Abraham's bosom?

What most posters here miss is that it was a bodily resurrection. No one needs a bodily resurrection at the Second Coming, except those alive on earth at the time. They are the only ones still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.