Have you never heard of Jewish scribes? The Tannaim, the Amoraim, and the Masoretes? They copied the manuscripts over and over again, and that too very meticulously. Whatever oral tradition existed, it did not change what was actually written and transmitted over hundreds of years. And all the apocryphal books were excluded from the Hebrew Tanakh. It consisted on only 24 books in three major divisions -- (1) the Law -- 5 books, (2) the Prophets -- 8 books, and (3) the Psalms or Writings -- 11 books. And that is exactly what Christ referred to as "the Scriptures" and Paul called "the holy Scriptures"..
Imagine a World with no Christians!
- Thread starter James Macbeth
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According to Rabbinic Judaism, the Oral Torah or Oral Law (Hebrew: תורה שבעל פה, Torah she-be-`al peh, lit. "Oral Law") are those purported laws, statutes, and legal interpretations that were not recorded in the Five Books of Moses, the Written Torah (Hebrew: תורה שבכתב, Torah she-bi-khtav, lit.
Books outside the official Jewish canon are holy as well.
The Book of Jasher is mentioned in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18 and also referenced in 2 Timothy 3:8.[1] From the context in the Book of Samuel, it is implied that it was a collection of poetry.
The Book of the Wars of the Lord[3] is mentioned in Numbers 21:14. It is speculatively associated with one of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness.
The Chronicles of the Kings of Israel and Chronicles of the Kings of Judah are mentioned in the Books of Kings (1 Kings 14:19,29). They are said to tell of events during the reigns of Kings Jeroboam of Israel and Rehoboam of Judah, respectively.
Etc...
And the extra books in the Catholic & Orthodox Canon, are akin to the writings of our Church fathers, except they are for the Jews, that came from their fathers.
Which books Christians have used and meditated upon.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Nope. 2 Corinthians 5
Absent from the body is to be immediately present with the Lord. At the instant a soul leaves the dead corruptible flesh, it enters a permanent incorruptible physical body. This is explained in Revelation 7:9
"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"
Every time a soul leaves earth it arrives in Paradise where humans are serving God day and night in His Temple. Those people have been there since 30AD. Every year for the last 1992 years that number keeps increasing. It started out at 1. The thief on the Cross. Now after 1992 years it is in the billions. A number larger than any first century number.
There is no verse stating a soul is ever delayed. The thief entered Paradise that day, no passing go, no collecting $200, and certainly no stuck in jail time, bearing the Cross, because the Atonement of the Lamb was insufficient.
You do realize the the Atonement of the Cross covered all sin? Even the sin of those in sheol. They never accepted the free gift of salvation. Some even so reprobate, they demonized their own spirit. The Atonement still covered all sin from all time.
IMO I think some in sheol could accept that gift at the GWT. But I certainly would not call sheol, purgatory, nor a means to work out one's own salvation. No one can do a blessed thing to save their own hide. Only the shed blood of Jesus, the Lamb of God, can Atone for Adam's and all mankind's sin. Not even spending 5,000 years in sheol can work off that debt. Certainly there is no place for purgatory in theology. Either one is present with the Lord, or one is in sheol. There is no in-between state, other than physical life on earth. One can confess sins while living on earth. One can work out the fruit of the Spirit to obtain eternal rewards, but only while alive on earth. After physical life on earth, there are no more chances to earn rewards. Unless you can point to Scripture that states we can continually work and receive awards on an ongoing basis. It certainly is not implied in Revelation 7:9-17.
There are 2 deficiencies in your argument.
1st
1 Cor 5 does not state what you said.
As evidence you did not state the verse but the whole chapter.Maybe you can explain it.
2nd
You say the Atonement can cover any Sin.
But our Lord says otherwise.
Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
This passage means some Sins will not be forgiven, and implies, therefore, that certain Sins can be forgiven in the next world.
Also you speak of our Lord as if he was an object to use, rather than a person, who makes his own decisions.
Our Lord Jesus is alive, is not a ticket puncher.
He will weight out your good works.
He will decide who get in, and who gets what.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Your verse does not call blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, sin, only blasphemy.
Jesus does say all sin is forgiven. Jesus says all blasphemy is forgiven except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The verse does not imply anything. The verse is very specific.
You certainly make up a lot of excuses why you think I am wrong.
"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
We our judged by Christ directly. Not sent to a holding cell to "work things out".
Nothing in 2 Corinthians 5 contradicts Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. If they did you would have pointed them out yourself.
One eternal or unforgivable sin (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit), also known as the sin unto death, is specified in several passages of the Synoptic Gospels, including Mark 3:28–29,[1] Matthew 12:31–32,[2] and Luke 12:10,[3] as well as other New Testament passages including Hebrews 6:4–6,[4] Hebrews 10:26–31,[5] and 1 John 5:16.[6][7][8]
And you said:
"Absent from the body is to be immediately present with the Lord."
And you cite passages in 2 Cor 5 incorrectly.
They deal with Awaiting the New Body.
No Pre-TB
Well-Known Member
@Timtofly
Perhaps this commentary I’ll post below will clear up what @James Macbeth was saying:
By the blasphemy here spoken of, we are evidently to understand injurious or impious speaking against the Spirit of God, such as the Pharisees were now guilty of; that is, attributing to the devil those miracles which Christ gave full proof that he wrought by the Holy Spirit. That this, and nothing but this, is the sin here intended, is manifest from the connection in which the words stand in this place; and more especially still from the parallel passage, Mark 3:28-30, in which the evangelist, assigning the reason of our Lord’s making this declaration, adds, Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit;
Perhaps this commentary I’ll post below will clear up what @James Macbeth was saying:
By the blasphemy here spoken of, we are evidently to understand injurious or impious speaking against the Spirit of God, such as the Pharisees were now guilty of; that is, attributing to the devil those miracles which Christ gave full proof that he wrought by the Holy Spirit. That this, and nothing but this, is the sin here intended, is manifest from the connection in which the words stand in this place; and more especially still from the parallel passage, Mark 3:28-30, in which the evangelist, assigning the reason of our Lord’s making this declaration, adds, Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit;
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
If you agree there is a purgatory and the redeemed have to redeem themselves, that is blasphemy against the Lamb of God. I doubt the poster even realizes that, yet he maintains his heresy is justified.
No Pre-TB
Well-Known Member
Did I or the commentary say “purgatory”? No, we didn’t. You said there is no sin and my response proves otherwise. The souls go to hades. When Christ died, his soul didn’t go to heaven. It actually went to hades, what is hell. The realm of the dead.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
You were agreeing with him. That is why I asked?
Jesus was in and out of Abraham's bosom as fast as the rapture will be.
How long do you think the rapture/Second Coming last? Days?Hours?
People sinned in Abraham's bosom? People sin in sheol?
No Pre-TB
Well-Known Member
Those asleep in Christ are in Purgatory.
Those under the Altar are in Heaven with our Lord with glorified bodies. (Sainthood)
At the sound of the Trumpet those asleep in Christ shall resurrect with incorruptible bodies.
Then after, the Christians who are alive, in a blink of an eye, shall be changed with incorruptible bodies, and be caught up with our Lord.
But not all shall be changed.
Christians in Mortal Sin will have to go through the Apocalypse.
That will be their Purgatory.
Then, they will have to resist the mark of the beast, and survive until the battle of Armageddon.
They will serve as witnesses and as scouts, against the Anti-christ. (Num 13:3)
Millions of Christians (mostly Bible believers, new age protestants, lone wolf christians) will take the mark of the Beast, because they were not rooted in the Apostles Creed, and will be seduced by intellectual arguments of the Anti-christ.
You do not hold the fullness of Faith nor the whole Christian doctrine.
That's why your interpretation of the Rapture is incomplete.
5. He descended into hell; The third day he rose again from the dead;
The Apostles Creed.
1. I believe in God the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth:
2. And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,[a]
Born of the Virgin Mary,
4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate, Was crucified, dead, and buried:
5. He descended into hell; The third day he rose again from the dead;
6. He ascended into heaven, And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Ghost;
9. The holy Catholick Church; The Communion of Saints;
10. The Forgiveness of sins;
11.The Resurrection of the body,
12. And the Life everlasting.
Amen
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