Was Jesus a 'created being?'

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GRACE ambassador

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they suggest that Jesus' "conception" was
a miraculous implant
NO, not a suggestion, But A Scriptural Fact Of God!:

"Now The Birth Of JESUS CHRIST was on this wise: When as his
mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together,
she was found With Child Of The Holy Ghost.

...behold, the angel of The LORD appeared unto him in a dream,
saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary
thy wife: for That Which Is Conceived in her Is Of The Holy Ghost."
(Mat 1:18,20)
Please read/study God's Word Of Truth More prayerfully And Carefully!

"Complete" study The LORD JESUS CHRIST Is Almighty God!

GRACE And Peace...
 

ChristisGod

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I stopped reading @Episkopos since what you have typed here makes no sense at all, no offence, I am not here for likes or see how many trophies I can win..I am familiar with Koine Greek but what you are doing is philosophizing, saying things, adding to and take away from the inerrant God-breathed holy scriptures and not one scripture reference.

It was for a reason and purpose I chose these topics since my, and yours, eternal destination is at stake here..

It would seem, that for the majority here the question "Who is Jesus" is still a mystery.



Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

If I could I would write a book on what I have learned here in these past weeks
Shalom brother
J.
Correct the Son who is the 2nd Person of the Godhead has no beginning and came from nowhere/no one since He is Eternal just like the Father and Holy Spirit. The Triune God Immutable , Eternal and Self Existent as the One Tri- Personal God.
 

ChristisGod

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NT:4416
prototokos (‎prwto/toko$‎, NT:4416), "firstborn" (from protos, "first," and tikto, "to beget"), is used of Christ as born of the Virgin Mary, Luke 2:7; further, in His relationship to the Father, expressing His priority to, and preeminence over, creation, not in the sense of being the "first" to be born. It is used occasionally of superiority of position in the OT, see Ex 4:22; Deut 21:16,17, the prohibition being against the evil of assigning the privileged position of the "firstborn" to one born subsequently to the "first" child.
The five passages in the NT relating to Christ may be set forth chronologically thus: (a) Col 1:15, where His eternal relationship with the Father is in view, and the clause means both that He was the "Firstborn" before all creation and that He Himself produced creation (the genitive case being objective, as v. 16 makes clear); (b) Col 1:18 and Rev 1:5, in reference to His resurrection; (c) Rom 8:29, His position in relationship to the church; (d) Heb 1:6, RV, His second advent (the RV "when He again bringeth in," puts "again" in the right place, the contrast to His first advent, at His birth, being implied); cf. Ps 89:27. The word is used in the plural, in Heb 11:28, of the firstborn sons in the families of the Egyptians, and in 12:23, of the members of the Church.
Note: With (a) cf. John 1:30, "He was before me," lit., "He was first (protos) of me," i. e., "in regard to me," expressing all that is involved in His preexistence and priority.

(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

NT:4416
The figurative meaning of ‎prwto/toko$ ‎in the messianic title ‎prwto/toko$ pa/sh$ kti/sew$ ‎'firstborn of all creation' (Col 1:15 may be interpreted as 'existing before all creation' (see 13.79) or 'existing superior to all creation' (see 87.47).

(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies, New York. Used by permission.)


13.79 NT:4416† ‎prwto/toko$‎b, ‎on‎: pertaining to existing prior to something else - 'existing first, existing before.' ‎prwto/toko$ pa/sh$ kti/sew$ ‎'existing before all creation' or 'existing before anything was created' Col 1:15. It is possible to understand ‎prwto/toko$ ‎in Col 1:15 as 'superior in status' (see 87.47). See also discussion at 10.43.

(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies, New York. Used by permission.)


87.47 NT:4416† ‎prwto/toko$‎c, ‎on‎: pertaining to existing superior to all else of the same or related class - 'superior to, above all.' ‎prwto/toko$ pa/sh$ kti/sew$ ‎'existing superior to all creation' Col 1:15. For another interpretation of ‎prwto/toko$ ‎in Col 1:15, see 13.79;

(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies, New York. Used by permission.)




Colossians 1:15
The expression does not mean that he was "begotten before all creatures," as it is often explained, but refers to the simple fact that he sustains the highest rank over the creation. He is the Son of God. He is the heir of all things. All other creatures are also the "offspring of God;" but he is exalted as the Son of God above all.

(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Colossians 1:15
First-born of every creature (Heb 1:6) - "the first-begotten:" 'begotten of His Father before all worlds' ('Nicene Creed'). 'God, of the substance of His Father, begotten before the worlds; and man, of the substance of His mother, born in the world' ('Athanasian Creed'). Priority and superlative dignity is implied (Ps 89:27). The English version seems to make Christ a creature. Translate [‎proototokos ‎‎pasees ‎‎ktiseoos‎], 'Begotten before every creature,' as the context gives the reason why He is so designated: 'For,' etc. (Trench), Col 1:16-17, "He is before all things." Thus, ‎pasa ‎‎ktisis ‎has not to be taken 'the first-begotten of all creatures,' but in its strict sense, 'before every creature.' "First-begotten" marks at once His eternal priority and His condescending to brotherhood with us (Rom 8:29). "Only-begotten" marks His relation to the Father by generation from everlasting. This expression is used by Origen (so far is the Greek from favouring Arian views) to mark Christ's Godhead, in contrast with His manhood, (B. ii. , contra Cels.) Since He was before "every creature" [the genitive of the point of view, 'in comparison to' far or long before: John 1:15,30, protosmou; John 15:18, etc.], He cannot be a creature Himself, but the Creator. The Greek is against Alford's translation, 'the first-born of all creation.'

(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Colossians 1:15
The first born ‎proototokos‎. Predicate adjective again and anarthrous. This passage is parallel to the ‎Logos ‎passage in John 1:1-18 and to Heb 1:1-4 as well as Phil 2:5-11 in which these three writers (John, author of Hebrews, Paul) give the high conception of the Person of Christ (both Son of God and Son of Man) found also in the Synoptic Gospels and even in Q (the Father, the Son). This word (the Septuagint and the New Testament) can no longer be considered purely "Biblical" (Thayer), since it is found in inscriptions (Deissmann, Light, etc., p. 91) and in the papyri (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary, etc.). See it already in Luke 2:7 and Codex Sinaiticus (a) for Matt 1:25; Rom 8:29. The use of this word does not show what Arius argued that Paul regarded Christ as a creature like "all creation" ‎pasees ‎‎ktiseoos‎, by metonomy the act regarded as result). It is rather the comparative (superlative) force of ‎prootos ‎that is used (first-born of all creation) as in Col 1:18; Rom 8:29; Heb 1:6; 12:23; Rev 1:5. Paul is here refuting the Gnostics who pictured Christ as one of the aeons by placing him before "all creation" (angels and men). Like ‎eikoon ‎we find ‎proototokos ‎in the Alexandrian vocabulary of the Logos teaching (Philo) as well as in the Septuagint. Paul takes both words to help express the deity of Jesus Christ in his relation to the Father as ‎eikoon ‎(Image) and to the universe as ‎proototokos ‎(First-born).

(from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament. Copyright © 1985 by Broadman Press.)

Colossians 1:15
The first-born of every creature ‎proototokos ‎‎pasees ‎‎ktiseoos‎. The English Revised Version (1885): "the first-born of all creation." For "first-born," see the note at Rev 1:5; for "creation," at 2 Cor 5:17. As "image" points to "revelation," so "first-born" points to "eternal pre-existence." Even the English Revised Version is a little ambiguous, for we must carefully avoid any suggestion that Christ was the first of created things, which is contradicted by the following words: "in Him were all things created." The true sense is, "born before the creation." Compare "before all things," Col 1:17. This fact of priority implies "sovereignty." He is exalted above all thrones, etc., and all things are "unto" ‎eis ‎Him, as they are elsewhere declared to be unto God. Compare Ps 89:27; Heb 1:2.


(from Vincent's Word Studies in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Colossians 1:15
The word "firstborn" is ‎prœtotokos‎. The Greek word implied two things, priority to all creation and sovereignty over all creation. In the first meaning we see the absolute preexistence of the Logos. Since our Lord existed before all created things, He must be uncreated. Since He is uncreated, He is eternal. Since He is eternal, He is God. Since He is God, He cannot be one of the emanations from deity of which the Gnostic speaks, even though He proceeds from God the Father as the Son. In the second meaning we see that He is the natural ruler, the acknowledged head of God's household. Thus again, He cannot be one of the emanations from deity in whom the divine essence is present but diffused. He is Lord of creation.

(from Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament, Copyright 1940-55 by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. Copyrights © renewed 1968-73 by Jeannette I. Wuest. All rights reserved.)



NT:4416
NT:4416 ‎prwtoto/ko$ ‎prototokos (pro-tot-ok'-os); from NT:4413 and the alternate of NT:5088; first-born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively):

KJV - firstbegotten (-born).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

NT:4416
13.79 NT:4416† ‎prwto/toko$‎b, ‎on‎: pertaining to existing prior to something else - 'existing first, existing before.' ‎prwto/toko$ pa/sh$ kti/sew$ ‎'existing before all creation' or 'existing before anything was created' Col 1:15. It is possible to understand ‎prwto/toko$ ‎in Col 1:15 as 'superior in status' (see 87.47). See also discussion at 10.43.

(Louw and Nida Greek-English Lexicon )
 
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Webers_Home

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Mary was led to believe that baby Jesus would be hers.

Luke 1:31 . . And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth
a son

The Greek word for Mary's conception is the very same word for conception
in Luke 1:24 and Luke 1:36 speaking of Elizabeth's baby John. Well; I have
even less reason to believe John was a test tube baby than I do for believing
Jesus was; so I think it's safe to insist that baby Jesus was made from
Mary's body similar to how Eve was made from Adam's body.

Now if so that Jesus was made from Mary's body, then that makes him
biologically related to Eve, and by means of her, Jesus is biologically related
to Adam.

1John 4:2-3 . . Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that
confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit
that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and
this is that spirit of antichrist.

The flesh spoken of in that passage is David's (Luke 1:32, Rom 1:1-3). So
then, folks believing Jesus was some sort of implant, i.e. a test tube baby,
are linked-in with the spirit of antichrist.

Rom 8:9 . . If anyone does not have not the Spirit of Christ, he does not
belong to Christ.
_
 
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Johann

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Correct the Son who is the 2nd Person of the Godhead has no beginning and came from nowhere/no one since He is Eternal just like the Father and Holy Spirit. The Triune God Immutable , Eternal and Self Existent as the One Tri- Personal God.
Glad we can concur on something Christophany.
J.
 
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Angelina

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His body was created by God for him to move around in but his spirit is eternal and his soul was trained so that he could understand the temptations of man and still be without sin
 
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farouk

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The Lord Jesus is gloriously the Creator, and not the created; John 1.

"God of God,
Light of light,
Lo, He abhors not the virgin's womb;
Verily God, begotten, not created,
O come let us adore Him,
Christ the Lord!"
 
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Johann

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Correct the Son who is the 2nd Person of the Godhead has no beginning and came from nowhere/no one since He is Eternal just like the Father and Holy Spirit. The Triune God Immutable , Eternal and Self Existent as the One Tri- Personal God.
....and most cannot see this, and this on a Christian forum.
J.
 
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Johann

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NT:4416
prototokos (‎prwto/toko$‎, NT:4416), "firstborn" (from protos, "first," and tikto, "to beget"), is used of Christ as born of the Virgin Mary, Luke 2:7; further, in His relationship to the Father, expressing His priority to, and preeminence over, creation, not in the sense of being the "first" to be born. It is used occasionally of superiority of position in the OT, see Ex 4:22; Deut 21:16,17, the prohibition being against the evil of assigning the privileged position of the "firstborn" to one born subsequently to the "first" child.
The five passages in the NT relating to Christ may be set forth chronologically thus: (a) Col 1:15, where His eternal relationship with the Father is in view, and the clause means both that He was the "Firstborn" before all creation and that He Himself produced creation (the genitive case being objective, as v. 16 makes clear); (b) Col 1:18 and Rev 1:5, in reference to His resurrection; (c) Rom 8:29, His position in relationship to the church; (d) Heb 1:6, RV, His second advent (the RV "when He again bringeth in," puts "again" in the right place, the contrast to His first advent, at His birth, being implied); cf. Ps 89:27. The word is used in the plural, in Heb 11:28, of the firstborn sons in the families of the Egyptians, and in 12:23, of the members of the Church.
Note: With (a) cf. John 1:30, "He was before me," lit., "He was first (protos) of me," i. e., "in regard to me," expressing all that is involved in His preexistence and priority.

(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

NT:4416
The figurative meaning of ‎prwto/toko$ ‎in the messianic title ‎prwto/toko$ pa/sh$ kti/sew$ ‎'firstborn of all creation' (Col 1:15 may be interpreted as 'existing before all creation' (see 13.79) or 'existing superior to all creation' (see 87.47).

(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies, New York. Used by permission.)


13.79 NT:4416† ‎prwto/toko$‎b, ‎on‎: pertaining to existing prior to something else - 'existing first, existing before.' ‎prwto/toko$ pa/sh$ kti/sew$ ‎'existing before all creation' or 'existing before anything was created' Col 1:15. It is possible to understand ‎prwto/toko$ ‎in Col 1:15 as 'superior in status' (see 87.47). See also discussion at 10.43.

(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies, New York. Used by permission.)


87.47 NT:4416† ‎prwto/toko$‎c, ‎on‎: pertaining to existing superior to all else of the same or related class - 'superior to, above all.' ‎prwto/toko$ pa/sh$ kti/sew$ ‎'existing superior to all creation' Col 1:15. For another interpretation of ‎prwto/toko$ ‎in Col 1:15, see 13.79;

(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies, New York. Used by permission.)




Colossians 1:15
The expression does not mean that he was "begotten before all creatures," as it is often explained, but refers to the simple fact that he sustains the highest rank over the creation. He is the Son of God. He is the heir of all things. All other creatures are also the "offspring of God;" but he is exalted as the Son of God above all.

(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Colossians 1:15
First-born of every creature (Heb 1:6) - "the first-begotten:" 'begotten of His Father before all worlds' ('Nicene Creed'). 'God, of the substance of His Father, begotten before the worlds; and man, of the substance of His mother, born in the world' ('Athanasian Creed'). Priority and superlative dignity is implied (Ps 89:27). The English version seems to make Christ a creature. Translate [‎proototokos ‎‎pasees ‎‎ktiseoos‎], 'Begotten before every creature,' as the context gives the reason why He is so designated: 'For,' etc. (Trench), Col 1:16-17, "He is before all things." Thus, ‎pasa ‎‎ktisis ‎has not to be taken 'the first-begotten of all creatures,' but in its strict sense, 'before every creature.' "First-begotten" marks at once His eternal priority and His condescending to brotherhood with us (Rom 8:29). "Only-begotten" marks His relation to the Father by generation from everlasting. This expression is used by Origen (so far is the Greek from favouring Arian views) to mark Christ's Godhead, in contrast with His manhood, (B. ii. , contra Cels.) Since He was before "every creature" [the genitive of the point of view, 'in comparison to' far or long before: John 1:15,30, protosmou; John 15:18, etc.], He cannot be a creature Himself, but the Creator. The Greek is against Alford's translation, 'the first-born of all creation.'

(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Colossians 1:15
The first born ‎proototokos‎. Predicate adjective again and anarthrous. This passage is parallel to the ‎Logos ‎passage in John 1:1-18 and to Heb 1:1-4 as well as Phil 2:5-11 in which these three writers (John, author of Hebrews, Paul) give the high conception of the Person of Christ (both Son of God and Son of Man) found also in the Synoptic Gospels and even in Q (the Father, the Son). This word (the Septuagint and the New Testament) can no longer be considered purely "Biblical" (Thayer), since it is found in inscriptions (Deissmann, Light, etc., p. 91) and in the papyri (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary, etc.). See it already in Luke 2:7 and Codex Sinaiticus (a) for Matt 1:25; Rom 8:29. The use of this word does not show what Arius argued that Paul regarded Christ as a creature like "all creation" ‎pasees ‎‎ktiseoos‎, by metonomy the act regarded as result). It is rather the comparative (superlative) force of ‎prootos ‎that is used (first-born of all creation) as in Col 1:18; Rom 8:29; Heb 1:6; 12:23; Rev 1:5. Paul is here refuting the Gnostics who pictured Christ as one of the aeons by placing him before "all creation" (angels and men). Like ‎eikoon ‎we find ‎proototokos ‎in the Alexandrian vocabulary of the Logos teaching (Philo) as well as in the Septuagint. Paul takes both words to help express the deity of Jesus Christ in his relation to the Father as ‎eikoon ‎(Image) and to the universe as ‎proototokos ‎(First-born).

(from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament. Copyright © 1985 by Broadman Press.)

Colossians 1:15
The first-born of every creature ‎proototokos ‎‎pasees ‎‎ktiseoos‎. The English Revised Version (1885): "the first-born of all creation." For "first-born," see the note at Rev 1:5; for "creation," at 2 Cor 5:17. As "image" points to "revelation," so "first-born" points to "eternal pre-existence." Even the English Revised Version is a little ambiguous, for we must carefully avoid any suggestion that Christ was the first of created things, which is contradicted by the following words: "in Him were all things created." The true sense is, "born before the creation." Compare "before all things," Col 1:17. This fact of priority implies "sovereignty." He is exalted above all thrones, etc., and all things are "unto" ‎eis ‎Him, as they are elsewhere declared to be unto God. Compare Ps 89:27; Heb 1:2.


(from Vincent's Word Studies in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Colossians 1:15
The word "firstborn" is ‎prœtotokos‎. The Greek word implied two things, priority to all creation and sovereignty over all creation. In the first meaning we see the absolute preexistence of the Logos. Since our Lord existed before all created things, He must be uncreated. Since He is uncreated, He is eternal. Since He is eternal, He is God. Since He is God, He cannot be one of the emanations from deity of which the Gnostic speaks, even though He proceeds from God the Father as the Son. In the second meaning we see that He is the natural ruler, the acknowledged head of God's household. Thus again, He cannot be one of the emanations from deity in whom the divine essence is present but diffused. He is Lord of creation.

(from Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament, Copyright 1940-55 by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. Copyrights © renewed 1968-73 by Jeannette I. Wuest. All rights reserved.)



NT:4416
NT:4416 ‎prwtoto/ko$ ‎prototokos (pro-tot-ok'-os); from NT:4413 and the alternate of NT:5088; first-born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively):

KJV - firstbegotten (-born).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

NT:4416
13.79 NT:4416† ‎prwto/toko$‎b, ‎on‎: pertaining to existing prior to something else - 'existing first, existing before.' ‎prwto/toko$ pa/sh$ kti/sew$ ‎'existing before all creation' or 'existing before anything was created' Col 1:15. It is possible to understand ‎prwto/toko$ ‎in Col 1:15 as 'superior in status' (see 87.47). See also discussion at 10.43.

(Louw and Nida Greek-English Lexicon )
Amazing stuff and powerful resources, where did you get this, especially Wuest?
J.
 
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Robert Gwin

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I wish you did. but because you deny the physical resurrection of Jesus from the dead you make it obvious you don't.

Angels are created things and are not sons as sons are understood. Jesu8s is God the son and the only being (in His humanity) begotten of God.

There you have it sir, one of us don't, sad but true. I personally think it has to do with honesty, but am not really sure, the Bible's explanation of it is found at 2 Cor 4:4, and in reality that is the true explanation as God's word can never be in error.
 

ChristisGod

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Amazing stuff and powerful resources, where did you get this, especially Wuest?
J.
My Biblesoft software. I've been using it for 20 plus years. I also have most of them in hard copies in my library. I still love reading books.
 

Bob Estey

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This question touches on two important matters ‘is Jesus is eternal?’ or ‘was Jesus created by God for the forgiveness of mankind’s sins?’

The brief answer is that Jesus is not a created being, but He existed from eternity along with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.


Although this answer might be familiar to most Christians, it is essential to note that there is opposition from those who claim the contrary.

One of the verses wrongly used to support claims that Jesus was created is the following:

Colossians 1:15 (NIV)

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

In the above verse, the word “firstborn” has been incorrectly interpreted out of context by some to state that God created Jesus. But, let’s look at another verse to validate the use of the word “firstborn”;

Psalm 87:27 (NIV)

And I will appoint him to be my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth.

This verse addresses King David as the firstborn son of Jesse, but was David actually Jesse’s firstborn son? No, he was the last born son.

So why does the verse in Psalms refer to him as a firstborn? It is the same reason it relates to Jesus as the firstborn Son of God – it refers to Him as the pre-eminent or the distinguished Son.

Likewise, in the Colossians verse above, the Greek word used is ‘Prototokos’ which means pre-eminent / distinguished, and when used in context, literally means ‘First in rank.’

While writing Colossians, if Paul wanted to call Jesus a ‘created being,’ he would have used the word for Jesus “Protoktistos,” which Greek scholars mention can be translated as ‘founded’ or ‘first created.’

Additionally, if we continue to read the following verses in Corinthians, Paul declares ‘Jesus was before all things’ meaning before creation itself:

Colossians 1:17 (NIV)

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Jesus often spoke of His unique origin of having pre-existed in heaven before coming into this world. Here are some clear examples found in scripture.

To the hostile Jews, Jesus declared that there was a distinction between Him and them;

John 8:23 (NKJV)

And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above.

You are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jesus also makes His heavenly origin when He addresses His disciples;

John 6:62 (NKJV)

What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend

where He was before?




John 16:28 (NKJV)

I came forth from the Father and have come into the world.

Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.”

In His high priestly prayer, Jesus also spoke of the glory He had with the Father before the world existed.

John 17:5 (NKJV)

And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself,

with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

We also have a clear statement from apostle John in his book where he refers to Jesus as the preexistent God who created all things:

John 1:3 (NKJV)

All things were made through Him,

and without Him nothing was made that was made.

In conclusion, Jesus is NOT a created being.

He existed from eternity, and at the appointed time, He chose to come down to earth for the redemption of mankind so that we could be saved from the clutches of sin.

THROUGH HIM ALL THINGS WERE MADE; WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT HAS BEEN MADE.
JOHN 1:3 (NIV)
I believe Jesus was God in flesh.
 
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L.A.M.B.

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@Robert Gwin

Psalm 33:6
"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath (Hebrew: ruach) of His mouth."


In Psalm 33:6 the Psalmist is speaking under the inspiration of the Spirit of God, and using imagery that human beings will understand, and the word ruach seen in this verse is specifically referring to the Spirit of God.

Quite obviously, the Word of God and breath of God "proceeding from His own mouth" does not imply that either the Word of God or Spirit of God was created of God.

When Adam and Eve were created, God said to them,

"Be fruitful, and multiply and fill the earth, and subdue it. And have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heavens, and all animals that move upon the earth." (Genesis 1:28).

Jesus is called the second man (1 Corinthians 15:47); the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45), and He is repeatedly called the Son of Man (example Matthew 12:8). Psalm 8:4-8 says,

"What is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him? For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honor. You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet: all sheep and oxen, yes, and the beasts of the field; the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, and all that pass through the paths of the seas."

As the son of man, Jesus fulfills God's purpose in His creation and the role appointed to Adam, but He is still the logos (Word) of God. He will reign until all enemies are under his feet, then He will hand the Kingdom back to God the Father, ending all (human) rule, authority and power (1 Corinthians 15:20-28), and so when John sees the vision of the New Jerusalem having come down out of from heaven from God, we are told,

"And a sanctuary I did not see in it, for the Lord God, the Almighty, is its sanctuary, and the Lamb, and the city hath no need of the sun, nor of the moon, that they may shine in it; for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp of it is the Lamb." (Revelation 21:22-23).

The Lamb is Jesus, the Word of God manifest in a human body. He called Himself the Light of the world and the bread of Life. Throughout scripture we are told that (eternal) Life is in the Word of God. The Word of God is God. Jesus is before all created things:

Colossians 1:15-16
"For all things were created by Him who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born (Greek: prototokos) of all creation, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him.
And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist."

There is no inconsistency in the Bible about the fact that the Holy Spirit and the Word of God is God:

"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath (Hebrew: ruach of His mouth."

God did not create Himself so that He could create everything else.

Adam was created. Jesus is begotten of the Holy Spirit, who is God.




You put it all together as the word says and I believe the word of God above any !
Thank you.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Glad we can concur on something Christophany.
J.


But let us all remember that jesus is both true God and true man wrapped up in one person now! The divine Jesus is eternal but HIs humanity had a definite beginning. This question cannot be answered as an either/or but as a both/and! For Jesus did have a beginning and is also eternal!
 
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Matthias

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Amazing stuff and powerful resources, where did you get this, especially Wuest?
J.

Speaking of Dr. Wuest,

”Jesus is God only begotten, proceeding by eternal generation from the Father in a birth that never took place because it always was.”

(Kenneth Wuest, Great Truths To Live By, p. 30)

How well do you think that observation fits with what we see in scripture?