These are not my words. If you were addressing that post to me. Well, thinking about it, I guess you maybe weren't, since . . . those aren't my words.
Much love!
Saying you are without sin verses in 1 John
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Much love!
Ephesians 4:21-24 KJV
21) If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
21) If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
The Bible makes it clear that they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). The Bible says he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin and that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God (1 Peter 4:1-2). The Bible says, “let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God” (2 Corinthians 7:1). The Bible says, “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (1 Corinthians 10:13). The Bible says, “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8). The Bible says, “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.” (Romans 6:12). The Bible says, “there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14). The Bible says, “Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34). I could keep going.
Johann speaks contrary to the Bible verses (God’s Word) above. He says, I quote:
“We all sin (Romans 3:23), and even what we consider good deeds are often tainted by selfish motives or pride (Isaiah 64:6). Left to ourselves, it is impossible to please God or to be completely free from sin (Romans 3:10; Ecclesiastes 7:10). Quote by: ~ Johann (Citation).
“we still live in the flesh, and the flesh is prone to want what it wants.” Quote by: Johann (Citation).
“we still live in the flesh, and the flesh is prone to want what it wants.” Quote by: Johann (Citation).
Actually, these words are not his own but he agrees with them. He is plagiarizing this article here:
Do Christians sin? | GotQuestions.org
Which means he is stealing another's work and claiming it as his own.
okay, maybe I made a mistake and you weren’t the one who made the halo remark. But whoever did does not make a distinction between what holy is and what holy is not.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Okay. So you believe “temporal ignorance of sin” is automatically forgiven. Not sure how that changes the morality of such a thing. So a person can be in a Christian cult temporarily and be saved while in that cult doing horrible and unimaginable sins as long as they are ignorant of those sins? This is why I cannot sign up with your line of thinking here. It’s still a justification of evil (even if it is temporal and done in ignorance). It’s still wrong. There is no biblical grounds for this kind of belief but it exists only in your own mind. A person can rape, steal, kill, smoke crack, and kick people down stairs and be saved all because they are only temporarily doing such sins in ignorance. David was not saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. To say so otherwise blurs the line on sin and can lead people to think you are advocating sin.
For example: Two Christians talking, and one of them says:
“Hey, Bob does not need to worry about sleeping around. He is saved because he is doing it in ignorance temporarily right now.”
I can only imagine the horror of a child listening in on this conversation. They could think to themselves… “Hmmm, maybe I should just avoid reading the Bible so I can sin in ignorance and enjoy this life.”
Remember what the Bible says about leading a child into sin? (See: Matthew 18:6).
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Im bowing out of conversation with you. I do not like the spirit you speak to others in. I just don’t want to partake in this conversation with you, sorry.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
If a person is justifying wrong doing, how am I supposed to speak to them?
Did I insult them? Did I use nasty bad words? Is it wrong for me to point out when somebody does wrong? Do not even parents correct their children? Don’t children turn out to be spoiled if they are never corrected of their wrongs?
Anyways, I am merely quoting the Bible, and quoting Johann (or I mean to say the plagiarized words of his). If you are offended by the truth, I cannot help that. Truth can be offensive to people. Standing up for what is good and right can be offensive to people. That’s all I am doing is providing you with the truth. But if you ever stood up for something that is right and good in life (amongst others who were trying to justify wrong doing), you cannot fault me for doing the same. If you feel I am wrong in some way, please point out how I am wrong, and we can discuss it like adults in love. If you don’t want to discuss it, we can agree to disagree in love and respect of course, and move on.
May God bless you.
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No, I did mention the halos.
But I didn't say, nor do I mean, what you claim.
We can give whatever description we like of what walking in the Spirit means. Keeping Scriptural is how we avoid error.
And God may do whatever He wants with any of us, and I think we'd be incorrect to assume that what He does with one He will do with all.
We can speak of visions and revelations and all, let the one with a dream tell it, and let the one with a vision share it, but these are not above Scripture.
Halos being a crude example . . . That's not how we know.
Galatians 5:16-26 KJV
16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26) Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
It's not about the shiny lights we see, walking in the Spirit is not doing the works of the flesh, and instead having the Spirit's fruit in our life, love, and joy, and peace, and patience, and gentleness, and goodness, and faithfulness, and meekness, and self-control.
With that being said, we may experience whatever it is God appoints for us. Walking in the Spirit is replacing a fleshy life with a spiritual life. After that, God has His unique plan for each one of us.
This is the starting point. It's like, all people will breathe, eat, drink, sleep, but some will do this, and some will do that. You don't define all people by the one who is a weightlifter, or the one who is doctor, nor do you define all spiritual Christians by the one who sees a vision, or another who does this or that.
Not all have this gift, not all have that gift.
There is no "downgrading" a life transformed by the power of God, in trust, and in love, and in all these. Do you realize the difference in a person when someone lives continuously loving? Continuously trusting? And so forth? That alone is an amazing miracle. It just begins there, God adds all things He desires. Do you downgrade that? if you don't happen to notice the person working a miracle? If they say they don't see the bright lights? Does God EVER say that all will work miracles? That all will see visions? No, He doesn't. Shall we declare, Though you love, though you trust, though you are self controlled, though you are faithful though you are patient and kind, you don't see lights, you don't raise dead people . . . You are not walking in the Spirit?
Paul was clear in his writings about that. Spiritual gifts, and our particular purposes in life vary, but the spiritual walk and the fruit produced in our lives through walking in the Spirit, this is universal in all the born again. Freedom from sin, rest, fruit, again, universal promises.
Much love!
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The problem is that if the old man dies the moment we receive the down payment of the Holy Spirit, then there would be no reason to be told to pick up our cross and follow and there would be no Christian’s still yet carnal for Paul to call carnal.
There has to be some reality.
There has to be some reality.
Romans 6:1-7 LITV
1) What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2) Let it not be! We who died to sin, how shall we still live in it?
3) Or are you ignorant that all who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4) Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, so also shall we be in the resurrection,
6) knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin.
7) For the one that died has been justified from sin.
"we should walk in newness of life"
"were baptized into His death"
"our old man was crucified with Him"
"the one that has died has been freed from sin"
Romans 6:10-12 LITV
10) For in that He died, He died to sin once for all; but in that He lives, He lives to God.
11) So also you count yourselves to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12) Then do not let sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its lusts.
"Count yourself truly dead to sin, but alive to God"
"Then do not let sin reign"
We've been baptized into Christ's death, and are to count ourselves now to be dead to sin, and alive to God. This is why we are to not let sin rule in us.
Being dead to sin is the reason for denying sin. But we are admonished to do just that. Being dead to sin is NOT axiomatic for not sinning. Being dead to sin is the reason we are to deny sin.
Our walk in by faith and not by sight. Sight says, "If I see sin in my life, I'm not dead to sin." Faith says, "I'm dead to sin, therefore, I don't have to sin."
Much love!
1) What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2) Let it not be! We who died to sin, how shall we still live in it?
3) Or are you ignorant that all who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4) Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, so also shall we be in the resurrection,
6) knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin.
7) For the one that died has been justified from sin.
"we should walk in newness of life"
"were baptized into His death"
"our old man was crucified with Him"
"the one that has died has been freed from sin"
Romans 6:10-12 LITV
10) For in that He died, He died to sin once for all; but in that He lives, He lives to God.
11) So also you count yourselves to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12) Then do not let sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its lusts.
"Count yourself truly dead to sin, but alive to God"
"Then do not let sin reign"
We've been baptized into Christ's death, and are to count ourselves now to be dead to sin, and alive to God. This is why we are to not let sin rule in us.
Being dead to sin is the reason for denying sin. But we are admonished to do just that. Being dead to sin is NOT axiomatic for not sinning. Being dead to sin is the reason we are to deny sin.
Our walk in by faith and not by sight. Sight says, "If I see sin in my life, I'm not dead to sin." Faith says, "I'm dead to sin, therefore, I don't have to sin."
Much love!
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Again, the issue is battling against sin (to overcome it) vs. justifying sin (thinking we are slaves to our sin our whole lives and so we cannot help ourselves but to sin every day or every week, etcetera.).
Two different ways of thinking here.
One attempts to do good and fight against all evil.
The other attempts to give into sin and evil.
Anyways, in Romans 7:14-24, Paul is given us his an account of his struggle with sin (or the sin nature) as a Pharisee under the Old Law (the 613 Laws of Moses) before he knew Jesus Christ. The context is serving in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (the Old Law) (Romans 7:6). Christians are not under the Old Law (Romans 6:14) (Acts of the Apostles 13:39). In Romans chapter 7: Paul was speaking to those who knew the Old Law (Romans 7:1) (Which is not the laws of Christ). For Paul says in the next chapter that keeping the Law of the Spirit of Life Christ Jesus (A New Covenant Law) makes us free from the Law of Sin and Death (The Old Law) (See: Romans 8:2, and then read Romans 8:1 in the King James Bible to get the definition of that New Covenant Law).
Paul basically says he appears to be without law to those who are without Law to win them for Christ, yet he is not without the Law of God seeing he is under the Law(s) of Christ (See: 1 Corinthians 9:21).
Others love to say that Paul says he is the chief of sinners in 1 Timothy 1:15. But little do they realize that Paul is referring to his old life of sin in verse 13 that says: “I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and a violent man;” (1 Timothy 1:13 BSB). So Paul is not describing any current sinful condition (According to the context). So those who say Paul struggled with sin as a Christian are simply misreading his words out of context.
But Peter says of Paul’s writings:
“speaking about these things as he does in all of his letters. In which there are some things that are difficult to understand, which the untaught and unstable [who have fallen into error] twist and misinterpret, just as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.”
(2 Peter 3:16) (AMP)
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if "walking in (with?) God's holiness" clarifies things, since I've never seen or experienced God's holiness myself; I just know that it's there. Maybe the "place where there is no sin", but I've never experienced that either.
I did a word search on the phrase "in the Spirit" (upper case "S", and ain't Bible Gateway grand?), and "in the Spirit" seems to be an altered state of consciousness that is associated with prophesy and prophetic visions, (Matthew 22:43, Ephesians 3:5, Revelation 1:10, Revelation 4:2, Revelation 17:3, Revelation 21:10 and 1 Corinthians 14:1-5), prophetic direction (Acts 19:21), speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:6), prayer (Ephesians 6:18), worship (Philippians 3:3), and love for our brothers and sisters in Christ (Colossians 1:8). So, I would expect that "walking in the Spirit" would be living in this altered state of consciousness for an extended period of time, praising God and prophesying and receiving visions and direction and showing love and compassion to others, especially our brothers and sisters in Christ.
The "no sin" thing? That's probably taken for granted, an unstated assumption. Sometimes I think we obsess over sin too much.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
This is one I've thought about for a long time, going back to asking the question on the old Ekklesia forum many, many years ago. Notice I referred to our "brothers and sisters in Christ". Being "in Christ" is an identity that we enter into by trusting Christ. This is who we are: We trust Him as our Savior and our Lord; we are Jesus's people.
You can check this by searching on the phrase "in Christ" and see how it is used.
Being in Christ is a corporate thing...being in the Body of Christ. All who believe are part of His Body. But abiding in Christ is a personal thing and comes at great personal cost. That's the difference between a saint and a faithful brother/sister.
And it’s okay to not yet have experienced it. God welcomes men who do the right thing and trust Him and keep trusting Him and keep being honest. They will be among the nations. They will have access to the tree of life and there will be no more death or pain for them ever again. That’s not a bad thing! It’s a good outcome.
But IN Him there is no sin, so that is the place of holiness. No sin is in holiness. Walking IN the Spirit and sinning at the same time you are doing it is impossible. Otherwise, there WOULD be sin in Him.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Another LOL!
Religious definition of "harmonize." : verb meaning to obscure, deny, ignore, or get downright hostile towards those who have the audacity to point out a verse that reveals something missing in my religious certainty.
Sincerity is a key to learning sir. The Bible doesn't contradict itself, so when it appears to, then understanding comes into play. All humans are sinners against God including Christians, so how are they dead to sin? Simple, because we Christians have out of God's love been given a redemption that covers our sins. Our desire is to keep free and far from sin, yet we realize that we all stumble many times. I think with just a little forethought on it, you will fully understand what is meant by those passages.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
I don't think I agree with that either. The word ἅγιος ("hagios", translated "saint") as used in the New Testament seems to refer to all faithful brothers and sisters. You don't even have to be canonized. And the word "abide" in the sense used would normally be understood as "to stay in a place".
But, at least I understand better on how you're using the terms "abide in Christ" and "saint", which should facilitate communication, even if they're non-standard usages.
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Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Yes sir, Christians do live the law of the Christ, which gives us what is termed, Christian identity. Jesus used the term fruits, which is our conduct, speech, obedience that we display that identifies us to the world, as well as to our brothers and sisters that we are Jesus' disciples.
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