What if you lose your faith?

[GEN2REV]

I do.

But you have this hollow idea that posting verses, is proof.
And its not.
Its rightly dividing the verses, that is the proof, not just posting verses.


Jesus said that He will give you eternal life if you BELIEVE.
Eternal life is your Salvation.

You post then, some verse about works or water , that you believe is a verse that talks about you trying to keep believing, to try to keep yourself saved.

"born again" is how Jesus says you will go to heaven, because you are already there, in God, if you are born again.
There is no ......trying to work for that...if you have it already.

You dont ever post that verse, and that's a problem., because that means you dont understand it, or you would not be posting verses that talk about works, instead.

Everyone here knows you don't post verses because no verses exist that say what you want them to say.

Kinda funny, aint it? You get mad at those who post verses that contradict what you teach while explaining that no verses are necessary to be posted to say what YOU want to say.

You're a heretic. Plain and simple.

You teach lies. Either out of profound arrogant ignorance or out of intentional misleading of God's sheep.

Either way, you teach heresy.

 

[GEN2REV]

I'm not trying to be good enough to earn God's salvation.
There's something here you're missing.

He's not misunderstanding anything. That's his Ace-in-the-hole, number one, default rebuttal to everything.

If he can't prove you wrong with Scripture, which is 100% of the time, then you are trying to earn salvation somehow. It's literally all he's got.

Do I need to post a bunch of verses AGAIN??
How many do you need?
How many times must they be repeated?

No amount of verses, or repeating of them, will make any difference with this joker.

He's the ultimate example of Matthew 7:6 and Proverbs 29:9-10.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

No, I'm not confusing them. Nothing wrong with confidence in Christ. It's your arrogance that's the problem:

"20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly notg spare you either." Romans 11:20-21​

I am aware that your OSAS beliefs have taught you to not be able to see what I just quoted. But to the point, I was addressing your narcissism; your unwillingness to be corrected; your desperate need to be superior. We're way beyond the right to have an opinion about this. You're staring right into the face of plain scripture about the necessity to keep believing to be saved but you're arrogantly refusing to be corrected about them. Heed Paul's teaching: "Don't be arrogant, but be afraid."

Please put on your “ Thinking Cap”.....Aren’t you smart enough to realize that all of these accusations that you direct toward me are the SAME accusations that me and my crowd could levy against YOU ?....do you not realize that I think that “ YOU” are Arrogant....can’t you see that I think that “YOU” refuse to be “ Corrected”——when the Scriptures That I point out are as plain as the nose on you face if only you had “ Eyes to SEE!”
...So don’t make the mistake thinking that you have some kind of Lock” on all- things Biblical —- you don’t ....in the end , you have your Take on Scripture and I have mine.....You think that I am wrong and I think that you are wrong....All we can do is put forth our best Evidence and let the reader decide....

At least I have the Smarts and the humility to admit that I could be WRONG about everything that I THINK and everything that I SAY......I sincerely do not believe that to be the case....but at least I have the guts to admit that I” could “ be Wrong—— How about You?

If these words sound like they are coming from an “ arrogant” man—- you don’t know what “ arrogance” is.....An “ ARROGANT” man sees *NO POSSIBILITY* of EVER being wrong.....I Present what I sincerely believe to be the correct interpretation of God’s Word and I can “Guarantee” that I don’t get everything 100% right and that is why in my heart-of Hearts I am truly humble —- I just don’t dwell on that “ humility” when I am engaged in debates....Once again, I freely admit that I could be wrong about many things...once again, how about you?

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Yes. I agree.

I certainly do hope newbies see the difference between your posts, which are demeaning and insulting, with no love shown,
and those of the rest of us that believe what the bible states and are here to serve the God we worship.

Guilty as charged...I show the same “ love” toward modern-day Pharisees as Jesus did to the Pharisees Of HIS day——have I ever called you Leaven- Spreaders and the teachers in here that try to spread False and PERVERTED “Gospels” such “mean” things as “ Snakes” or Broods Of Vipers” Or “Fools”..... how about “ dogs” or “ pigs”........I could go on....
As for Paul , he didn’t say to try to cajole people and beg people to Believe....He didn’t even say to pray for the False Teachers and Spreaders If Leaven.....He said to “ Cast Out” these types.....I have no power to “ cast out” any of the Modern- Day Judaizers That come in here to “ Trouble” Those that try to do as God Commands—- That Command is to REST in the Gospel Of Grace Without “ADDING to it” and thereby not joining theGospel Perverters that have “Fallen From Grace” and don’t even know what that term means.....

Your “sweet and lovable” Jesus is a fiction you and others have created....True Love is not always “ sweet” .....sometimes “ love” is shown by being harsh to wake people up ....you have to look at the Bigger Picture—-Eternal Salvation is at stake!

 

[BloodBought 1953]

It says that whoever BELIEVES, present tense, will have eternal life.



Here is something else that is “ present tense”.....Jesus said “ HAS” Eternal Life ! NOT “ will have” Eternal Life....Stop misquoting Scripture....

Proclaiming * HAS* is all the PROOF that the OSAS crowd needs to PROVE the Validity of their Biblical Doctrine —- Jesus Himself Preached it....

He never said that “ Those That Believe In me have a great * CHANCE* to be Saved, But Only If They do do this and don’t do that, things such as “endure until the end, repent of ALL of your Sins before you die and NEVER commit a sin on PURPOSE!”

The VERY SECOND that Jesus Saves a Soul he knows EVERY SIN, EVERY Lapse of Faith and every Sin Of Omission That you will ever commit in your Future —-and He saves you anyway—- it’s permanent ....He knows That There is way to take care of any and all Future Problems—-it’s called GRACE—- It’s BIGGER than all your Sins.....

“ Where Sin abounds, Grace Super Abounds” .....you just don’t Believe it, do you? Knowing that Fact makes a person want to Sin LESS , not More—- some things just have to be “ Spiritually” Discerned and your problem is that you just don’t have that Spirit....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Oh, by the way, that's not how it works. Once again after being told over and over and over that I do not subscribe to this theology you insist on saying I do. What's wrong with you?

There are MANY things “ Wrong” with me ( I am Forced to Thank God For His Grace every Day! How about you? )

I’ve seen you posts over the years and yes, you deny belief In “ Lucky Repentance”, but your actions speak so loudly , I can’t hear what you say.....

So let’s just clear it up here and now—- Now, lets make it clear—— I don’t really believe that this would happen in real life, but just speaking theoretically, just for the sake of argument , let’s say that I am a Born AgainBeliever That has to go out of town for a few days and I am holed up in a boring hotel room and I decide to go to the Hotel bar and just have a couple of drinks for the heck of it....before I know it, I drink a little more than I intended to and decide to visit a ‘ Gentleman’s Club” ....I had a little too much to drink , so I work up the courage to get up and give one of the dancers a tip ....on the way up to the stage, I flop over from a heart attack and die instantly.....now....what happens next? I obviously died while Sinning .....I never Repented from that sin,etc......

Theoretically speaking.....am I covered by Grace and get to go to Heaven because I am a Believer That “ Stumbled” or am I damned forever because I never had the chance to repent from my vile night of sin?

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Can't you see that you've changed the definition of "never leave you nor forsake you" from that of losing your salvation to that of not losing your salvation when God actually does it? Here, let me illustrate your inconsistency:

"6Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the Lord your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you (you will never be unsaved).” Deuteronomy 31:6

"They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them (you only lose blessings)" Deuteronomy 31:16-17​

According to you "he will never leave you nor forsake you" means you can't be unsaved, but when he actually does forsake you now it only means loss of blessing. You aren't being consistent with your definition of being forsaken.

One “ Forsaking” refers to a battle....Gods protection is gone and they will lose their battle Big Time! Having no Faith , refusing to Believe God when He flat-out gives you a Specific Promise that you are going to defeat your enemy in warfare is nit going to happen without consequences .....the failed to Trust God and paid the price— no different from today ( as in refusing to Rest in the Promise Found in Paul’s Gospel Of Grace plus Nothing to Save )

The other “ Forsaking’ refers to the potential abandonment of the Holy Spirit in the Heart Of a “New Creation”..... That just ain’t happening....Jesus Promises ( in regard to His Holy Spirit) to NEVER leave or Forsake you....NOTHING can take you from God’s Grasp......” Nothing” includes “ you” trying to escape “ His” Grasp......At the very moment that you get Saved , you STAY SAVED! What is the proof of that? Jesus said that once Saved, “ NOTHING in the FUTURE” can remove you from His grip.....if I get Saved and LATER would try to get out of His Grip and “DID”—— that would be a FUTURE event wouldn't it? Therefore any attempt to Escape the Grip Of God would have to be doomed for Failure...

I believe your comparisons of “ Forsaking” are like comparing Apples and Oranges...l

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Nowhere in the NT does it state that we are to do nothing but believe.


The Phillipian Jailer asked Paul, “ what must I do to be Saved?”
Paul responded, “ BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be Saved!”

 

[Johann]

Two comments....
First, you must surely know that kings did indeed send forth decrees sealed with their sign.
At times, these decrees were abrogated, nullified or made invalide by the same King that issued the original law/decree.

Second, did I say the sealing of the Holy Spirit is the same as sacraments?
Baptism IS a sacrament.
I don't really understand your statement...

What I am saying is: Were we sealed with the Holy Spirit upon being baptized with/in water?
J.

 

[Johann]

Everyone here knows you don't post verses because no verses exist that say what you want them to say.

Kinda funny, aint it? You get mad at those who post verses that contradict what you teach while explaining that no verses are necessary to be posted to say what YOU want to say.

You're a heretic. Plain and simple.

You teach lies. Either out of profound arrogant ignorance or out of intentional misleading of God's sheep.

Either way, you teach heresy.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

At least I have the Smarts and the humility to admit that I could be WRONG about everything that I THINK and everything that I SAY......I sincerely do not believe that to be the case....but at least I have the guts to admit that I” could “ be Wrong—— How about You?

I've learned a lot from people online over the years and have adjusted my doctrine accordingly. I'm to the point now that there isn't much left to digest. It's been a steady progression of increasing knowledge, precept upon precept...with the exception of end times stuff. I know a few of the stated facts of scripture about that, and that's about it. As far as OSAS goes, the elusive part about it for me is the dividing line in a person where they won't go back to unbelief no matter what. I'm not convinced that being born again is the exact line. Maturity in Christ is.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I’ve seen you posts over the years and yes, you deny belief In “ Lucky Repentance”, but your actions speak so loudly , I can’t hear what you say.

The only thing you have to be in determined repentance about to be saved when you die is believing in Christ. You can die struggling with the most epic of besetting sins but as long as you believe and trust in Christ, living in him in a kind of 'seventy times seven' relationship, you will be received into the kingdom at the return of Christ. I think the point you don't grasp is going back to a life of willful, purposeful sin is unbelief. That person needs to come back to faith in Christ in order to be saved when Jesus comes back. They are in unbelief. It's doesn't matter if they ever really believed or not. They're damned either way, so what does it matter?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

One “ Forsaking” refers to a battle....Gods protection is gone and they will lose their battle Big Time! Having no Faith , refusing to Believe God when He flat-out gives you a Specific Promise that you are going to defeat your enemy in warfare is nit going to happen without consequences .....the failed to Trust God and paid the price— no different from today ( as in refusing to Rest in the Promise Found in Paul’s Gospel Of Grace plus Nothing to Save )

The other “ Forsaking’ refers to the potential abandonment of the Holy Spirit in the Heart Of a “New Creation”..... That just ain’t happening....Jesus Promises ( in regard to His Holy Spirit) to NEVER leave or Forsake you....NOTHING can take you from God’s Grasp......” Nothing” includes “ you” trying to escape “ His” Grasp......At the very moment that you get Saved , you STAY SAVED! What is the proof of that? Jesus said that once Saved, “ NOTHING in the FUTURE” can remove you from His grip.....if I get Saved and LATER would try to get out of His Grip and “DID”—— that would be a FUTURE event wouldn't it? Therefore any attempt to Escape the Grip Of God would have to be doomed for Failure...

I believe your comparisons of “ Forsaking” are like comparing Apples and Oranges...l

You're the one who changed it to comparing apples and oranges, not me. See, you defined "never leave nor forsake you" in Deuteronomy 31:6 as 'the Holy Spirit will never leave you in salvation'. But then, in that same passage in vs. 17 where God gives the reason why he will leave and forsake them, it suddenly doesn't mean losing salvation anymore, but losing blessing. That's a convenient way to defend your OSAS belief but it's not an honest way.

 

[Johann]

You're the one who changed it to comparing apples and oranges, not me. See, you defined "never leave nor forsake you" in Deuteronomy 31:6 as 'the Holy Spirit will never leave you in salvation'. But then, in that same passage in vs. 17 where God gives the reason why he will leave and forsake them, it suddenly doesn't mean losing salvation anymore, but losing blessing. That's a convenient way to defend your OSAS belief but it's not an honest way.

Here's the reason why I believe a believer in Christ cannot loose his/her salvation, too many promises as written in scriptures...


2Co_1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Why give it in the first place, IF we are to lose it?

Eph_1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Why seal us with the Holy Spirit IF we are to be unsealed?


Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Note here, unto the day of redemption


In whom also, &c.] Better, In Whom moreover, on believing, ye were sealed, &c. The Gr. does not forbid the rendering, “on believing in Whom;” but this demands an unusual construction.—The Christian is here viewed as “sealed in Christ;” that is, as receiving a Divine attestation of his union with his Lord.
“On believing”:—better than “after believing,” because the Gr. does not emphasize sequence.

It rather combines into one idea the facts of the faith and the seal. In experience, the latter might markedly follow the former; but not necessarily in the Divine ideal.
sealed] So again Eph_4:30; and cp. 2Co_1:22. The idea of the phrase is a double one; attestation of reality (cp. Joh_3:33; Rom_4:11; 1Co_9:2), and claim of property (cp. Rom_15:28). “The Spirit” was at once the proof of the presence of Divine faith in the recipient, and the mark of Divine ownership over him.



Ye were sealed with that holy Spirit; ye were secured and ascertained of your right to the inheritance; which we may understand to be done either by the Spirit’s impressing upon the soul the image of God in the work of regeneration, or (because that cannot so well be understood to be after believing) rather by his testimony in men’s own consciences afterward; whether immediate, by an overpowering light shining into the soul, and filling it with assurance of its interest in Christ and heaven; or mediate, enabling a man to discern that image of God in his soul, by which the Spirit bears witness to his interest in the inheritance, and assures him of it: see Eph_4:30 Rom_8:16 Gal_4:6.

Of promise; because the Spirit’s coming was before promised, or because he verifies and confirms the promises in and to the hearts of believers.


Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: Aorist <<sealed

Voice: Passive <<
Mood: Indicative <<
Person: second [you+]
Number: Plural

No way, once sealed, to be unsealed later on.

J.

 

[Johann]

I've learned a lot from people online over the years and have adjusted my doctrine accordingly. I'm to the point now that there isn't much left to digest. It's been a steady progression of increasing knowledge, precept upon precept...with the exception of end times stuff. I know a few of the stated facts of scripture about that, and that's about it. As far as OSAS goes, the elusive part about it for me is the dividing line in a person where they won't go back to unbelief no matter what. I'm not convinced that being born again is the exact line.

Are you saying you have exhausted the scriptures?
J.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Are you saying you have exhausted the scriptures?
J.

No. I'm close to exhausting all the various viewpoints of scripture. Viewpoints that have been taken into consideration and which have brought me to the doctrinal construct I hold today.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

2Co_1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Why give it in the first place, IF we are to lose it?

Eph_1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Why seal us with the Holy Spirit IF we are to be unsealed?


Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Note here, unto the day of redemption

All these promises are true and steadfast for the believing person. Not the person who never believed, or who stops believing. It's really that simple.

The sealing of the Spirit is to show the difference between the surety of this covenant vs. the un-surety of the old covenant in which the kingdom was in constant friction and disarray. It's not meant to suggest you can't be unsealed under any circumstances.

 

[Johann]

No. I'm close to exhausting all the various viewpoints of scripture. Viewpoints that have been taken into consideration and which have brought me to the doctrinal construct I hold today.

What is your final doctrinal construct?
Not being argumentative, I genuinely want to know
J.

 

[Johann]

All these promises are true and steadfast for the believing person. Not the person who never believed, or who stops believing. It's really that simple.

The sealing of the Spirit is to show the difference between the surety of this covenant vs. the un-surety of the old covenant in which the kingdom was in constant friction and disarray. It's not meant to suggest you can't be unsealed under any circumstances.

Exactly right Ferris.
It is a covenant.
J.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

What is your final doctrinal construct?
Not being argumentative, I genuinely want to know
J.

I believe your sincerity, thank you. I believe that the simple answer to the OSAS debate is salvation is safe and secure and unmovable for the believing person. As long as you are believing in the blood of Christ and the promise of eternal life you are safely kept in the power of God's kingdom and salvation. Nothing can move you, nothing can displace you, as it was under the old covenant.