This really grabbed me today!
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And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.
And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”
And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.
And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him.
And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth
Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
If the son was at his Father's side during the entire creative process, which included the things in heaven, (Colossians 1:16) then God was most assuredly NOT talking to himself.....There is only one Creator and it is Jehovah.....his "master workman" was at his side following his Father's instructions as any servant of God must do.
Proverbs 8 is called "Wisdom Personified" and gives confirmation that God was not alone in the creative process. (scholars agree that this is speaking about God's son in his prehuman existence)
“4 The Lord created me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old. . . . .
30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was His delight daily,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in the world, His earth,
And having my delight in the sons of mankind." (NASB)
The term "master workman" here carries the idea of an "artificer, architect, master workman, skilled workman" (Strongs)
God was giving his son a magnificent gift......creation, which Colossians 1:16 says came "through him and for him".
If you cling to a lie, contradictions are bound to surface. If "all scripture is inspired of God", then NO contradictions can come up...only misinterpretations.
You use all the verses that pertain to Him when He became human and while He was on earth but reject all the others that say who He is.
Is that the problem? You think you see contradictions in all those verses with the verses pertaining to when He “made Himself nothing, becoming a servant?”
So all those verses where men worshiped Jesus (and He didn’t correct them) are misinterpretations? I gave many verses.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Hang on a minute and I will answer all your questions...I know you don't really want the answers, but since you asked them, others may be interested in the response.
If you read all of Isaiah 63, you will see that it is God speaking by his prophet. Those are God's words.....not man's.
If the holy spirit inspired scripture, then we have to accept what it says as truth.....nowhere does God or his Christ ever claim to be the same God in two different parts. If you have God speaking to God, and one part of God praying to God, and one God sitting beside God...you have two gods. That is polytheism plain and simple. The scripture I share is like water off a duck's back...but that is your prerogative.
Just because I refuse to accept what I believe is a blasphemous teaching, does not mean that I have devalued Christ in his role as Redeemer.
I will, like Jesus, accredit to God what is God's and to the son, what is his....and I acknowledge that the Christ is the one "sent forth" by his God and Father....Jehovah, whom he says is "the only true God" and himself as the one he sent. (John 17:3) That is plain and simple. Not complicated at all.
Why is Isaiah quoted here as if it is part of the following scripture? You need to identify your verses and why you have quoted them.
If you read all of Isaiah 63, you will see that it is God speaking by his prophet. Those are God's words.....not man's.
I wholeheartedly agree with this passage.....but who is 'trampling on the son of God' and are 'treating his blood as something unholy'?
If the holy spirit inspired scripture, then we have to accept what it says as truth.....nowhere does God or his Christ ever claim to be the same God in two different parts. If you have God speaking to God, and one part of God praying to God, and one God sitting beside God...you have two gods. That is polytheism plain and simple. The scripture I share is like water off a duck's back...but that is your prerogative.
Just because I refuse to accept what I believe is a blasphemous teaching, does not mean that I have devalued Christ in his role as Redeemer.
I will, like Jesus, accredit to God what is God's and to the son, what is his....and I acknowledge that the Christ is the one "sent forth" by his God and Father....Jehovah, whom he says is "the only true God" and himself as the one he sent. (John 17:3) That is plain and simple. Not complicated at all.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Most of Christian scripture is about Jesus in his human condition. How do I reject scripture that says who he was prior to that?....I have shared what the Hebrew scriptures say about him......you never acknowledge them.
This is word salad. And no, I don’t have to identify the verses, everyone will have read them and remember them and if they want to look them up for themselves to see an entire passage, a few words in the search bar will quickly bring them up.
I never said they were the words of a man. They are in my Bible, so they are the words from God.
I most certainly have acknowledged what the OT says about Him. In fact, I think there were…at least two or three I gave FROM the OT.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Did I not ask you to look up the word "pro·sky·neʹo"? Did you do so? If you did then you will understand that it does not mean only "worship".
It basically means to bow down to someone. The Hebrew scriptures contain many instances of this in Jewish culture and it is spoken about in the Christian scriptures also. The magi for example when they came bringing gifts to the child Jesus, did not "worship" him as a god, they offered him "obeisance" as a new King. These were Babylonian astrologers, worshippers of many gods. They were simply following a custom of bringing gifts to new members of a royal family. Its the same word, but incorrectly translated.
When "pro·sky·neʹo" is rendered to a human it is "obeisance"...it is only "worship" when it is rendered to God.
Since Jesus is not, and never has been "God", what is rendered to him as a man, and by the angels is "obeisance", which is reverential honor.
It was rendered to anyone who was in a higher station as an act of submission and humility.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I spoke of scripture that I have used from the OT and I explained them. You do not want to know about word meanings that contradict what you want to believe....but that's OK. Your beliefs are yours and my beliefs are mine.....Jesus is the judge and he will accept nothing that is not scriptural truth. It's why we have the Bible and not just word of mouth. Chinese whispers have no place here.
Our own hearts are either saving us or condemning us....and its got nothing to do with how emotionally attached we are to what we believe.
The truth is the truth, whether we believe it or not.
I have no problem with the verses you use pertaining to Jesus during the time He “made Himself nothing, becoming a servant.” I understand that while in human form He had to rely on Gods Spirit just as we do.
You are the one who has a problem with acknowledging some verses. A great many of them in fact. I listed many.
And you have a glaring problem in that you insist there is only one God,( which I believe), that only God is to be worshiped (which I believe) and that Jesus cannot be God, yet have not reconciled all those verses I gave of men kneeling and bowing down and worshiping Jesus, yet He did not correct them.
You are the one who has a problem with acknowledging some verses. A great many of them in fact. I listed many.
And you have a glaring problem in that you insist there is only one God,( which I believe), that only God is to be worshiped (which I believe) and that Jesus cannot be God, yet have not reconciled all those verses I gave of men kneeling and bowing down and worshiping Jesus, yet He did not correct them.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Please demonstrate where I have refrained from answering your questions.
"pro·sky·neʹo" does not only mean "worship"....Jesus accepted "obeisance" because he himself worships the same God that I do. He "worships" his God even in heaven. (Revelation 3:12) The Father has always been his God, no matter where he was. One part of God cannot worship himself....
Ah…I see. And when Thomas answered Him and said, my Lord and my God! - may we see your fancy footwork with that one?
I fear no one who is English speaking can be saved unless you help them. Their entire bibles, from start to finish are so corrupted that it’s impossible for anyone to be saved without you, I fear…
Yes, but no one in North America HAS a Bible by which they can read and be saved because they are all corrupted. English speakers think “worship” means “worship.” But according to you, every English speaker but you is believing a lie of the devil that Jesus is worthy of worship. So you saying, it’s why we have a Bible, doesn’t help them. I think you will need to tour the whole world to save them all because in English,French, German, Italian, Portuguese, Swahili and Spanish, to name just a few, they all are translated as “worship” in each of the languages.
In fact, it is no longer possible for anyone to be saved unless you help them Jane. God made every mans ears to hear the gospel in his very own language on the day of Pentecost, but He is not able to save men through the written word and reading the gospel because it has been too corrupted for Him to do it and it’s too late now because the whole world has gone after Jesus and worshiped Him because of a mistranslation repeated over and over again in their bibles! It’s so tragic! It just all got away from Him. Maybe He stopped for lunch and it all fell apart.
And it’s not like He can run over to the print shop and fix it now…
And it’s not like He can run over to the print shop and fix it now…
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
No fancy footwork necessary.....just the truth. When Thomas said this, he called Jesus "theos" just like John did, but if all the apostles believed what Jesus taught, their collective belief about Jesus is summed up in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6....
"There may be so-called gods both in heaven and on earth, and some people actually worship many gods and many lords. 6 But for us,
There is one God, the Father, by whom all things were created, and for whom we live.
And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things were created, and through whom we live."
Tell me now if Thomas and John believed differently to the rest of the apostles? The problem has to be with the word translated "god" (theos).
It is not a word that means only Jehovah......it is a word also used to describe those divinely appointed by him. It was applied to the human judges in Israel and I am sure no one considered them to be "gods". Jesus said so in John 10:31-36.
It is not impossible for anyone to be saved because it is God himself who chooses to draw individuals to his truth. Those whom he draws come to see the truth as plain as day, and wonder why the rest are so blind....but there is a reason. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
All will be students of God's word and will study diligently to come to a knowledge of that truth....like the ancient Beroeʹans who were commended for checking the scriptures on a daily basis to ensure that what they were being taught was the truth. (Acts 17:11)
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
The Bible says what it says in any language and Bible students who really want to know what it says will do their research because, as I mentioned before, there is so much knowledge available today, no one has an excuse for ignorance. They remain ignorant by choice.
If you know how the devil operates, he gets people to break God's laws unwittingly. But, is there an excuse to be hoodwinked?
Only if you want to be.
I believe what Jesus said recorded in John ch 6....
"6 For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me...."
"65 Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.” (NLT)
That means that only those "drawn" by the Father, will come to the son.....they cannot come to him unless "the Father gives them" to him.
What does that mean for those who are not "drawn" and those are who not "given"?
Do these ones even know that their worship is unacceptable?
Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-23...
“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22 On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ 23 But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’"
This is sobering....these ones acknowledge Jesus as their "Lord", and yet their works (in his name) are abhorrent to him because they are breaking God's laws.
How are professed Christians breaking God's laws? How can he say that he has NEVER known them?
I believe that it is the first and most important Commandment that they violated.....putting another "god" in the Father's place.....so much so that Jehovah is really hardly ever mentioned in the churches because they all assume that their God is Jesus.
This was just the first violation....many other untruths followed. Immortality of the soul and hellfire to name just two.
When did Christ ever even suggest any of these things? Remembering that his audience was exclusively Jewish....he gave his sermons to people who understood his references and did not ascribe pagan meanings to them.
Yet, only those whom the Father drew could comprehend what he taught.
Just as the prophesy in Daniel concerning "the time of the end" says.....
"4 But you, Daniel, keep this prophecy a secret; seal up the book until the time of the end, when many will rush here and there, and knowledge will increase.”
"10 Many will be purified, cleansed, and refined by these trials. But the wicked will continue in their wickedness, and none of them will understand. Only those who are wise will know what it means."
We have the knowledge available to us, but those who want God to be the personage that they think he should be, will reject anyone who says otherwise. Isn't that why the majority of Jews rejected Christ? He wasn't what they Pharisees said he should be....yet he was exactly what the scriptures said he should be.
If you put all the factors together, you will understand that the majority will believe what is not truth, and will continue in their 'wickedness' and 'lawlessness'...these will 'understand' nothing because their hearts and minds are closed. They don't want the 'cleansing or purification or refinement'.....they are stuck in their old ways and happy to stay there just like the Jews of Jesus' day.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
If that is what you really think, then what is the point of this conversation....perhaps some who are reading might get the importance of it...
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