Timing of the abomination of desolation

[Truth7t7]

It is not just the proportion of genuine Abrahamic DNA that qualifies one to be "Jewish." It is the fact that a people emerged from Abraham's family, through Isaac and Jacob, and then expanded into Israel. Those, then, who mixed in with them or were descended from them, came to be known as the promised nation, the biological heir to Abraham.

The giving of the Law of God defined them for centuries so that a national heritage began that continues to the present day. That's who we call "Jewish" today.

Once Again, you previously stated "Genetics"

What percentage of these genetics qualify a human on earth to become a part of your future "National Israel",1%-10%-50%-100%?

 

[covenantee]

That is, he must have faith in God.

Yes, faith and obedience.

The Scriptures clearly indicated that God favored those who obeyed His word. It was essential, if one was to be a member of Israel, to choose the one God, and to be faithful to Him. Then he was promised God's favor.

Absolutely.

I agree with them that Israel will be recovered.

With all external criteria irrelevant, faith and obedience are God's only determinants. Only a remnant manifests them. (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:5) As they do, they are added to the holy nation of the Church. (1 Peter 2:9)

God loves all men equally. He has no favorites.

Absolutely.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Once Again, you previously stated "Genetics"

What percentage of these genetics qualify a human on earth to become a part of your future "National Israel",1%-10%-50%-100%?

Go back and read the answer. It requires procreation of a son, followed by another son, followed by another son, who became the 12 tribes of Israel, and eventually the nation Israel. Those who gathered around this national entity are Jews by association with the entity. So it is not a percentage of "genetics," but rather, an association with a group that evolved from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Israel.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes, faith and obedience.

Absolutely.

With all external criteria irrelevant, faith and obedience are God's only determinants. Only a remnant manifests them. (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:5) As they do, they are added to the holy nation of the Church. (1 Peter 2:9)

Absolutely.

Clearly, we agree on a lot. I have questions, however, how Peter meant to identify "Israel" in his letter. He appears to be referring to the ideal Israel, which really hasn't been fulfilled yet. The fact that a remnant still exists gives credibility to the possibility of it returning to its original promise. The addition of many other nations finds in ideal Israel the standard by which all Christian nations should behave.

It isn't clear to me if Peter is talking primarily to his Jewish brothers, or to Christians in general. Certainly, in his time Israel was the ideal nation, it being that no other nations had yet entered into covenant with God, as Israel had. Gentiles were, so to speak, being grafted onto the tree of Israel.

However, once the Roman Empire had converted to Christianity, Gentile nations began their own odyssey with God, and the nation Israel was demoted to being merely an ideal example. I just don't think Peter would've elevated Israel, the nation, so much if it wasn't true that Israel would eventually rise to be more than just a remnant of believers. More, the entire nation could be converted to Christianity, just as many Gentile nations have already done. "The first shall be last."

1 Peter 2.9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

 

[Truth7t7]

That is only one of the beliefs that PP's have. And no, that particular belief alone does *not* define what a PP is. You need to read a little more.

PP's have a systematic theology that tends to look back into the past to obtain their prophetic guidance. They don't wish to speculate about the future, assigning various so-called "prophecies" to any number of contemporary applications.

I do have sympathies for PPs. On the other hand, I do think we have future prophecy in the Bible that helps us to set our views straight.

Preterist believe that events in the Olivet discourse have taken place, namely Matthew 24:15 Daniel's AOD, and Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation

You believe Matthew 24:15 in Daniel's AOD was fulfilled in 70AD when Roman Armies surrounded Jerusalem

Randy your eschatology is in the "Partial Preterist" camp, you can deny it all you want

If the shoe fits, wear it proudly

 

[Truth7t7]

That is your proof, that Paul said the "End" will come when Jesus returns? That is really pathetic!

You need to ask yourself: the end of what? It is the end of this age, Paul speaks of, which argues for a new age to follow it. When one age ends, another must begin.

Biblical Truth Before Your Eyes, Read It Again And Again

(Then Cometh The End)
(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

When Jesus Christ Returns It Will Be (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom On Earth

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

Afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Truth7t7]

The fact that a remnant still exists gives credibility to the possibility of it returning to its original promise. The addition of many other nations finds in ideal Israel the standard by which all Christian nations should behave.

It isn't clear to me if Peter is talking primarily to his Jewish brothers, or to Christians in general. Certainly, in his time Israel was the ideal nation, it being that no other nations had yet entered into covenant with God, as Israel had. Gentiles were, so to speak, being grafted onto the tree of Israel.

However, once the Roman Empire had converted to Christianity, Gentile nations began their own odyssey with God, and the nation Israel was demoted to being merely an ideal example. I just don't think Peter would've elevated Israel, the nation, so much if it wasn't true that Israel would eventually rise to be more than just a remnant of believers. More, the entire nation could be converted to Christianity, just as many Gentile nations have already done. "The first shall be last."

1 Peter 2.9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

God has a future Nation Israel, That's Going To Teach The World How To Behave

Scripture clearly teaches "The Elect Remnant" are chosen and elected to salvation through God's "Foreknowledge" and "Added" to the "Church" just as all believers are saved and "Added" to the "Church"

There isn't a future for a "National Ethnic People" as you believe and teach, it's saved church, and unsaved wicked, it's that simple

Then you go further to claim all National Ethnic Israel will be saved "Wrong" read verses 7-8 below real slow

"Israel Hath Not Obtained"

"God Has Given Them A Spirit Of Slumber"

"Eyes That Don't See, Ears That Don't Hear"

Romans 11:2-8KJV
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

 

[Randy Kluth]

God has a future Nation Israel, That's Going To Teach The World How To Behave

Scripture clearly teaches "The Elect Remnant" are chosen and elected to salvation through God's "Foreknowledge" and "Added" to the "Church" just as all believers are saved and "Added" to the "Church"

I think that's a bad interpretation if there ever was one. When the Church increased its numbers the idea was not that Jewish believers were being added to a Gentile Church! The Jewish Church *preceded* the Gentile Church!

There isn't a future for a "National Ethnic People" as you believe and teach, it's saved church, and unsaved wicked, it's that simple

You're going to have to deal with Acts 1.
Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

Although Jesus chose to not focus on the timing of this event, the way he prioritized the Gospel mission *before* this event made it clear that the event itself would eventually happen. That is, Israel would be restored in the future. We'll have to disagree on this.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Biblical Truth Before Your Eyes, Read It Again And Again

(Then Cometh The End)
(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

When Jesus Christ Returns It Will Be (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom On Earth

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

Afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Same argument applies. Read my response again. The "end" implies the end of *an age.* And that implies the beginning of a new age.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Preterist believe that events in the Olivet discourse have taken place, namely Matthew 24:15 Daniel's AOD, and Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation

You believe Matthew 24:15 in Daniel's AOD was fulfilled in 70AD when Roman Armies surrounded Jerusalem

Randy your eschatology is in the "Partial Preterist" camp, you can deny it all you want

If the shoe fits, wear it proudly

I would wear the shoe proudly if it was true. It isn't. You are just belligerent.

You were told that my particular interpretation of the Olivet Discourse does not belong exclusively to PPs. And that's a fact--you just ignore it.

 

[Timtofly]

I believe Enoch/Elijah who never experienced a human death, Moses died and was buried

That is what Moses predicted. What actually happened, no one knows. Satan never got the body of Moses. Jude 1.

 

[Truth7t7]

I think that's a bad interpretation if there ever was one. When the Church increased its numbers the idea was not that Jewish believers were being added to a Gentile Church! The Jewish Church *preceded* the Gentile Church!



You're going to have to deal with Acts 1.
Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

Although Jesus chose to not focus on the timing of this event, the way he prioritized the Gospel mission *before* this event made it clear that the event itself would eventually happen. That is, Israel would be restored in the future. We'll have to disagree on this.

Galatians 3:26-28KJV
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[covenantee]

Clearly, we agree on a lot. I have questions, however, how Peter meant to identify "Israel" in his letter. He appears to be referring to the ideal Israel, which really hasn't been fulfilled yet. The fact that a remnant still exists gives credibility to the possibility of it returning to its original promise. The addition of many other nations finds in ideal Israel the standard by which all Christian nations should behave.

It isn't clear to me if Peter is talking primarily to his Jewish brothers, or to Christians in general. Certainly, in his time Israel was the ideal nation, it being that no other nations had yet entered into covenant with God, as Israel had. Gentiles were, so to speak, being grafted onto the tree of Israel.

However, once the Roman Empire had converted to Christianity, Gentile nations began their own odyssey with God, and the nation Israel was demoted to being merely an ideal example. I just don't think Peter would've elevated Israel, the nation, so much if it wasn't true that Israel would eventually rise to be more than just a remnant of believers. More, the entire nation could be converted to Christianity, just as many Gentile nations have already done. "The first shall be last."

1 Peter 2.9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Peter addressed his letter to Christians in the diaspora (elect strangers, 1 Peter 1:1-2). 1 Peter 2:9 is descriptive of all who are in Christ, i.e. His Church, irrespective of genetics, cultures, customs, et al. They have always been and will always be a remnant, true believers who will always be a minority.

Israel never entered as a nation into covenant with God, and was never an "ideal nation". God's only Covenant was with faithful and obedient individuals, both Jew and Gentile, within the nation. Those who rebelled, He slew by the thousands. Genetics, culture, custom, et al did not save them. In 70 AD, after His people, the Christians, had escaped, God destroyed the entire nation. You and I et al are very familiar with that event.

Dispensational futurism incessantly proclaims a national salvation of Israel. It is a myth. A nation is comprised of its individuals, and salvation and a covenant relationship with God are exclusively individual in nature. Some individuals will accept His salvation and His covenant. Many will not. That is true of the entirety of humankind of every nation.

Israel was not, is not, and will never be, any different.

 

[covenantee]

Go back and read the answer. It requires procreation of a son, followed by another son, followed by another son, who became the 12 tribes of Israel, and eventually the nation Israel. Those who gathered around this national entity are Jews by association with the entity. So it is not a percentage of "genetics," but rather, an association with a group that evolved from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Israel.

But we know that only faith and obedience, not association, are the criteria by which God identifies His Chosen People.

Some "associates" will come to God in faith and obedience.

Most will not.

 

[Truth7t7]

I would wear the shoe proudly if it was true. It isn't. You are just belligerent.

You were told that my particular interpretation of the Olivet Discourse does not belong exclusively to PPs. And that's a fact--you just ignore it.

Once Again, You believe Matthew 24:15 in Daniel's AOD was fulfilled in 70AD when Roman Armies surrounded Jerusalem

Randy your eschatology is in the "Partial Preterist" camp, you can deny it all you want

 

[Truth7t7]

Go back and read the answer. It requires procreation of a son, followed by another son, followed by another son, who became the 12 tribes of Israel, and eventually the nation Israel. Those who gathered around this national entity are Jews by association with the entity. So it is not a percentage of "genetics," but rather, an association with a group that evolved from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Israel.

God's word clearly states, a "Jew" is one who is circumcised of the heart in the Spirit, a saved person who is in the "Church"

Randy you claim to gather around and associate with a ethnic group or heritage "National Israel" is the definition of a "Jew" as seen in bold red above

Randy at every turn your teachings and beliefs are in opposition with scripture, read the scripture below real slow, and compare it to your claim in bold red above, your "Silenced" in your claims made, will you correct your error?

Romans 2:28-29KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

But we know that only faith and obedience, not association, are the criteria by which God identifies His Chosen People.

Some "associates" will come to God in faith and obedience.

Most will not.

It required *both.* It wasn't enough just to be a Christian. You had to be a believer and also be linked to the nation that originally descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Let me put this in other terms. Let's say you have a family with 2 children. And God says, "I don't care about your children, but I'm going to make 2 children in Argentina--so don't worry about your 2 kids!"

Do you think Abraham didn't care about having 2 believing children of his own? Of course he did.

This shows that God cares not only about having believing children for Himself, but He also cares about our children becoming believers, as well. As Jesus said, God is able to raise up children for Abraham out of the rocks! Matt 3.9.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Peter addressed his letter to Christians in the diaspora (elect strangers, 1 Peter 1:1-2). 1 Peter 2:9 is descriptive of all who are in Christ, i.e. His Church, irrespective of genetics, cultures, customs, et al. They have always been and will always be a remnant, true believers who will always be a minority.

Israel never entered as a nation into covenant with God, and was never an "ideal nation". God's only Covenant was with faithful and obedient individuals, both Jew and Gentile, within the nation. Those who rebelled, He slew by the thousands. Genetics, culture, custom, et al did not save them. In 70 AD, after His people, the Christians, had escaped, God destroyed the entire nation. You and I et al are very familiar with that event.

Dispensational futurism incessantly proclaims a national salvation of Israel. It is a myth. A nation is comprised of its individuals, and salvation and a covenant relationship with God are exclusively individual in nature. Some individuals will accept His salvation and His covenant. Many will not. That is true of the entirety of humankind of every nation.

Israel was not, is not, and will never be, any different.

Your post consists of a lot of assertions, which are mere opinions if not supported with Scripture. I've supplied Scripture to prove God intends to fulfil His promise to Israel to restore them where they will "never again" be dispossessed of their land. This is not just in the Abraham promise itself, nor only in the Prophets of the OT, but it is also in the NT.

Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

Rom 11.15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Yes, we obviously agree that the Jewish People lost their nation and land in 70 AD, as indicated in Jesus' Olivet Discourse. But we don't agree that this "Great Tribulation" is the end of their nation. Jesus posed that problem as a temporary setback in the present age, with the idea that Israel will be reformed and restored.

Furthermore, Jesus said that the glorified saints would rule over that nation and ensure it remains godly. At least, that's how I interpret it.

Matt 19.28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I don't know how you can say that Israel was never in covenant with God? Failing a covenant at times does not mean they weren't in covenant with God. Only when the nation fell to the lowest degree did God cast them out of their land. Up until that time, their being in their land was an indication God was still protecting them as His people under covenant of the Law.

In 1 Peter yes, he was addressing those in the Diaspora. That would be Jewish believers. The letter was also circulated among non-Jewish Christians, so that the sense of being aligned with Israel was natural in view of the fact Jewish believers continued to be associated with Israel, even though it was soon to be destroyed. Since non-Jewish Christians had no other nation to be associated with, they would likely look to Israel as their ideal nation.

This indicates to me that Israel represented the ideal nation of faith, which Christians were to pursue, whether it was immediately practical or not. The idea was to pursue a just society, and not just individual salvation, in my view.

Non-Jewish Christians likely looked to Israel's *example,* rather than merely to be grafted into that nation and actually emigrate to it. At any rate, it wouldn't make sense for them to do this, since it was soon to be destroyed.

The fact Christians in general looked to Israel as their example is indicated by the fact Christians ultimately led to the conversion of the Roman State, and later pursued the realization of "Christian nations." Those who don't wish this to be a reality tend to denigrate the history of Christian nations, but they have been an historical reality nonetheless.

 

[Randy Kluth]

God's word clearly states, a "Jew" is one who is circumcised of the heart in the Spirit, a saved person who is in the "Church"

I don't believe Paul said that the way you're interpreting it. I believe Paul was describing what a true Jew is, ie a true literal Jew! A true literal Jew, to be a true, or faithful, Jew has to have faith in Christ! That description fits the 12 apostles and Paul, as well as the many Jewish converts to the Christian faith in the Early Church. It still fits Jews who convert to Christ today.

Romans 2:28-29KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

This passage applies to the Jewish People, and not to non-Jewish People! It refers to Christian Jews!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Once Again, You believe Matthew 24:15 in Daniel's AOD was fulfilled in 70AD when Roman Armies surrounded Jerusalem

Randy your eschatology is in the "Partial Preterist" camp, you can deny it all you want

Once again, you show your abject ignorance. Those who hold to the historical view of the Olivet Discourse were not all Preterists! Obviously, the Church Fathers who held this view were not Preterists because Preterism was not even developed for many centuries later!

Some heretical Christians hold to Scripture interpretations like Mormons do, believing they are "little gods." But that alone doesn't make them Mormons! Holding to a traditional Mormon belief does not make them Mormons.

In my case, I'm not even holding to a traditional Preterist belief. Rather, I'm holding to the traditional belief of the Early Church Fathers who were *not* Preterists.

The fact you continue to say this indicates you are, to me, a trouble-maker. And I'll not engage you on this much longer. I'm just giving you the benefit of the doubt that you have honest differences of opinion.

But this is becoming a name-calling exercise for you, more than a difference in biblical interpretation. If you don't stop, I'll be done talking with you altogether. Perhaps that's what you want?