Timing of the abomination of desolation

[Timtofly]

You have the typical understanding of so many Christians, which I think is completely ignorant and judgmental. I'm not saying I don't like you, brother. It's just that I've been walking this path a long time, and I've noted that the garden variety Christian acts more like a Separatist than an agreeable, compassionate Christian that we're called to be in the Bible.

Of course Israel was imperfect--we all are! But to say that the story recorded of the nation, through good times and bad, requires that we focus exclusively on the bad and brand them as such is just plain wrong. ...In my opinion, respectfully!

The path that nations take always leads to failure in the present age, because a nation consists of both the strong and the weak, the good and the bad. And over time, the law of averages works against the nation. The lowest common denominator wins out.

None of this means that God can't restore nations that have fallen, which in the past were good, or at least acceptable. If they started good, and if they did good in their history, they likely can be restored with the right fix. God has stated that He delays the "fix" because it is necessary to allow more people and more nations opportunity of their own, before a more comprehensive judgment falls and ends the process.

I think it is just natural that a rotten apple destroys the whole bushel. A good apple cannot make a bushel of rotten apples whole again.

Many may argue it is just God pulling the strings any way, as only God can change a heart and mind. I think that God does not force humans, but has a way of making one single willing mind contagious enough to actually change a multitude.

 

[Timtofly]

After millennia of natural genetic dispersion and diffusion, the gene pool is today completely heterogenized, and more so every day. There is no longer any "German" or "Jewish" or any other homogeneous gene pool. There is only a "Mongrel" gene pool.

You might want to inform biologist in the field of DNA, they are wrong. They are mapping and declaring that one can know their specific DNA origins.

Or is it one huge globalist conspiracy to segregate people?

 

[covenantee]

You might want to inform biologist in the field of DNA, they are wrong. They are mapping and declaring that one can know their specific DNA origins.

Yes, originS.

That's what I said.

That's what heterogeneous means.

 

[Randy Kluth]

When someone who looks like "A" creates offspring with someone who looks like "B", the offspring may look more like one than the other, but the genes of both are fully present, hence "mongrelization".

I don't believe you're properly treating the subject of ethnicity and biological inheritance. When a person has a child, there is biological succession. And when that child gets married and has kids, the succession is not "mongrelized," but rather, continued. It of course involves adding to the gene pool, but the idea is of natural succession, as opposed to adoption. Adding marriage partners from outside of the gene pool is part of the natural process continuing the inheritance.

Even when partners add new gene pools, and even when others are adopted, the natural succession continues, simply by a continuity of natural birth. And when the group becomes large enough, remains in the same territory and develops a culture, a nation can form indicating the product of natural succession. Your claim that this doesn't exist makes zero sense to me! You just seem to think that this natural process, involving marrying new gene pools, disrupts the natural continuity.

It doesn't. It does add to the gene pool, but it does *not* break the continuity of natural childbirth beginning with the original patriarch and matriarch. To say it doesn't matter, or that ethnicity doesn't matter, is clearly false. It mattered very much to God that Isaac be the natural child of Abraham and Sarah. And it certainly mattered to the parents, as well!

Restoration for Israel, as for everyone, is realized for each individual who receives Christ and becomes a citizen of His holy nation, His Church.

You are speaking of the restoration of individuals. But I've been speaking of the restoration of nations. Perhaps you wish to deny this is a "reality," as well? We should not utilize biblical theology to deny actual realities!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Do you admit you were wrong in saying the ancient Israelites obeyed God's Command to remove the ungodly inhabitants of the holy Land?

Why would I do that? Israel eliminated most of the pagan inhabitants of Canaan, in obedience to God. They inherited the land with people who chose to obey the Law of Moses. This was good, and I won't apologize for saying simply what the Bible said.

Falling short in regard to failing to remove *all* of the pagan inhabitants speaks of human imperfection, which simply means we "fall short" of perfect obedience. A price was paid for not eliminating all of the pagans from Canaan. But it doesn't undo the obedience that they demonstrated in destroying most all of paganism in Canaan initially.

You are also wrong in your determination for a general Jewish revival and redemption. I can post 20+ prophesies that refute that idea.

No, you can't. I've read you for years now, brother. Any attempt to prove from Scripture that Israel can't reform normally applies to a specific time and place, to a specific rebellious generation that has run out of "chances." But I can counter your "proofs" with my own 20+ proofs that Israel *will* be restored in the end!

You do know, I'm sure that belief is a vital part of the 'rapture to heaven' theory. Is that what you believe? The Christians raptured to heaven, while the Jews pass thru the Great Trib?

I've been telling you for well over a year, in fact from the 1st time I discussed this with you, that I am strongly opposed to the Dispensationalist notion of a Pretribulational Rapture of the Church. How many times must I tell you that?

Please fix that in your memory. Back in 1972 or 73 I memorized 2 Thessalonians, and realized that my being indoctrinated by my Pretrib friends was wrong!

Matthew 21:43 makes it clear that the Jewish nation has lost the Kingdom and nowhere is it said they ever get it back.

Yes, it is implied that they will get it back in Acts 1.6-7.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I think it is just natural that a rotten apple destroys the whole bushel. A good apple cannot make a bushel of rotten apples whole again.

Many may argue it is just God pulling the strings any way, as only God can change a heart and mind. I think that God does not force humans, but has a way of making one single willing mind contagious enough to actually change a multitude.

God seems to have a progressive approach towards restoring countries that have been called by Him. With Israel, He allowed the nation to be divided into 2 kingdoms, with Israel to the north choosing to follow worship outside of Jerusalem. They were ultimately cast away permanently, with the exception of those individual families who migrated south to Judah.

Judah was also judged for idolatrous behavior, even though they continued to worship in Jerusalem. So God saw some good in them, and cast them out of the Promised Land and into an idolatrous, foreign country, to learn how bad paganism really is! 70 years later God brought back to the Promised Land those who wanted to return to worship in Jerusalem and who wished to abandon their idolatry.

This did not end the process of national deterioration. By the time of Jesus the people now called "the Jews" had adopted an external form of religion without the internal spiritual substance. They were not obeying God from the heart, but only keeping religious rules while retaining their inward evil inclinations. The nation, as a whole, was cast out of the land again, this time for an entire age. But the remnant that remained faithful were considered to be heirs of a future restored Israel.

The reason Israel is not yet being restored is because a small remnant of Jews cannot by themselves establish a new nation apart from opportunity afforded to those exiled Jews who still wish to return to God in the land. And they were still under the influence of those who are hardened against Christianity.

And so, in modern times Israel has rebooted without genuine repentance, in order to give exiled Jews opportunity with the remnant of Christian Jews to turn back to God. The final judgment to come will destroy the power of the ungodly Jews over those who may wish to truly repent.

 

[Keraz]

A price was paid for not eliminating all of the pagans from Canaan. But it doesn't undo the obedience that they demonstrated in destroying most all of paganism in Canaan initially.

That price was Israel's descent into apostasy and false religion worship, leading to their conquest and decreed exile.
But God sent Jesus to come and save them; WE Christians are the result! WE are the Israel of God, the Jews are the House of Judah; Bible prophecy describes their destiny in many scriptures.

I am strongly opposed to the Dispensationalist notion of a Pretribulational Rapture of the Church.

I did know that and am happy that at least some have found the error of the rapture theory.
What I said was; that to promote a general Jewish redemption, is to confirm the rapture to heaven idea of the Jews on earth going thru tribulation, while they sit in heaven. All of which is totally unsupported by the Bible.

Yes, it is implied that they will get it back in Acts 1.6-7.

Once again, you fail to differentiate between Israel and Judah.
As Acts 1:8 goes on to say, the Apostles went out to the far corners of the earth and the descendants of Israel received the Gospel. The descendants of Judah reject Christianity and of them only a remnant will be saved.

And so, in modern times Israel has rebooted without genuine repentance, in order to give exiled Jews opportunity with the remnant of Christian Jews to turn back to God. The final judgment to come will destroy the power of the ungodly Jews over those who may wish to truly repent.

As Jeremiah 50:4-5 says, Israel and Judah will come together and both will live in Zion; in all of the holy Land. ALL faithful Christian peoples.
Note in Jeremiah 12:14-16, how Judah will be uprooted from the holy Land, along with all the ungodly neighbors. Judah; Jews will only be allowed to return; if they learn the ways of My people, that is: Christianity.
Most of the current inhabitants of the Jewish State of Israel will be killed in the forthcoming Lord's Day of fiery wrath, Isaiah 29:1-4, Zephaniah 1:14-18

 

[covenantee]

I don't believe you're properly treating the subject of ethnicity and biological inheritance. When a person has a child, there is biological succession. And when that child gets married and has kids, the succession is not "mongrelized," but rather, continued. It of course involves adding to the gene pool, but the idea is of natural succession, as opposed to adoption. Adding marriage partners from outside of the gene pool is part of the natural process continuing the inheritance.

Even when partners add new gene pools, and even when others are adopted, the natural succession continues, simply by a continuity of natural birth. And when the group becomes large enough, remains in the same territory and develops a culture, a nation can form indicating the product of natural succession. Your claim that this doesn't exist makes zero sense to me! You just seem to think that this natural process, involving marrying new gene pools, disrupts the natural continuity.

It doesn't. It does add to the gene pool, but it does *not* break the continuity of natural childbirth beginning with the original patriarch and matriarch. To say it doesn't matter, or that ethnicity doesn't matter, is clearly false. It mattered very much to God that Isaac be the natural child of Abraham and Sarah. And it certainly mattered to the parents, as well!

The true significance of God's choice of Isaac had everything to do with faith and obedience. Isaac was the "child of promise", a product of the faith and obedience of his parents Abraham and Sarah. Faith, because both Abraham and Sarah believed God's promise that Abraham would sire a son even though both of them were well beyond the point of physical capability. (Hebrews 11:11-12) Obedience, because Abraham was willing to obey God's instructions to sacrifice Isaac, in apparent violation of His own promise. Yet in further faith Abraham obeyed, to the point where God's intervention was elicited. (Hebrews 11:17-19). God's response was to honor all three of them by choosing Isaac's lineage to be that through which Messiah would come.

Hebrews 11
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

We then further see Isaac, the "child of promise", continue his parents' spiritual legacy to also become a spiritual progenitor of those of faith and obedience in and to Christ -- His Church -- His "children of promise" heirs:

Romans 9:7-8
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Galatians 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.

Thus Isaac, in the full tradition of his parents Abraham and Sarah, continued their legacies of faith and obedience, to the benefit of us all who follow in their spiritual footsteps.

Faith and obedience.

Spiritual DNA.

God's sole and exclusive Covenant conditions.

And no others.

You are speaking of the restoration of individuals. But I've been speaking of the restoration of nations. Perhaps you wish to deny this is a "reality," as well? We should not utilize biblical theology to deny actual realities!

What nations?

Yes, it is implied that they will get it back in Acts 1.6-7.

There is no such implication.

Acts 1
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Jesus' response to the disciples' question is instructive. He refers to times and seasons.

Exegetically, times and seasons are associated with the day of the Lord, which is the final end of all things temporal.

Paul clarifies it.

1 Thessalonians 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Peter completes it.

2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


There is not the slightest hint of a restored carnal Israelitic kingdom; and any reference thereafter to a "kingdom of Israel" never again appears in Scripture.

Jesus had made it clear that Israel was stripped of its kingdom, and under impending judgment and destruction. (Matthew 21:33-45)

That judgment and destruction fell upon it in 70 AD.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The true significance of God's choice of Isaac had everything to do with faith and obedience. Isaac was the "child of promise", a product of the faith and obedience of his parents Abraham and Sarah. Faith, because both Abraham and Sarah believed God's promise that Abraham would sire a son even though both of them were well beyond the point of physical capability.

I agree that faith and obedience on the part of the parents was important, as well as the promise that Isaac would have faith too. But it absolutely mattered that Isaac was the natural child of Abraham and Sarah.

Gen 18.13 Then the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard for the Lord? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”
Gen 21.1 Now the Lord was gracious to Sarah as he had said, and the Lord did for Sarah what he had promised. 2 Sarah became pregnant and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the very time God had promised him. 3 Abraham gave the name Isaac to the son Sarah bore him.

Faith is not the only criteria necessary for God to fulfil His promise to Abraham. Not only must the child of Abraham have faith, but he must be the natural son of both Abraham and Sarah!

What nations?

Nations that were promised to be nations based on faith would fall and need to be restored to God at the coming of Christ. These are all of the nations in history who have made covenant with God, including Israel who made covenant with God under the Law, and in the NT Christian nations, in Europe and elsewhere.

There is no such implication.

Acts 1.6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

The implication here in the question posed to Jesus by his disciples is that Israel would ultimately be restored. The question was *when* this will happen. And Jesus' response indicated that *when* it will happen is not the major concern with respect to their ministry. The important thing is to prepare people for final judgment today, and not be so concerned about when things will happen later.

There is not the slightest hint of a restored carnal Israelitic kingdom; and any reference thereafter to a "kingdom of Israel" never again appears in Scripture.

You obviously have a different interpretation of Acts 1.6-7. That's okay. Be happy.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That price was Israel's descent into apostasy and false religion worship, leading to their conquest and decreed exile.
But God sent Jesus to come and save them; WE Christians are the result! WE are the Israel of God, the Jews are the House of Judah; Bible prophecy describes their destiny in many scriptures.

Actually, the promise is for both the salvation of Israel and of the Gentiles, including nations and individuals. Entire nations obviously will not guarantee salvation to every individual. The promise is only that nations will be nations of faith. That has at least partly been fulfilled in history.

I did know that and am happy that at lease some have found the error of the rapture theory.
What I said was; that to promote a general Jewish redemption, is to confirm the rapture to heaven idea of the Jews on earth going thru tribulation, while they sit in heaven. All of which is totally unsupported by the Bible.

Yes, I don't believe that. I don't believe in the eschatology of Dispensationalism not just because of their Pretrib Rapture idea, but also because Israel becomes, for them, a kind of supreme nation on earth. I don't believe that at all. It is to be honored as the first model of a theocracy, but God also said it was among the smaller nations on earth. One day there will be equality among nations, but Israel will not be preeminent, in my opinion.

Once again, you fail to differentiate between Israel and Judah.
As Acts 1:8 goes on to say, the Apostles went out to the far corners of the earth and the descendants of Israel received the Gospel. The descendants of Judah reject Christianity and of them only a remnant will be saved.

Yes, we disagree. Israel and Judah were reunited in the Jewish restoration during the days of Ezra and Nehemiah. The Jewish People today consist of all 12 nations. The northern tribes went away forever, because they turned not just to idolatry but also away from Jerusalem, the core of their identity. I'm here assuming that many from the northern tribes eventually migrated to Judah, so that the Jewish People became representative of all 12 tribes.

As Jeremiah 50:4-5 says, Israel and Judah will come together and both will live in Zion; in all of the holy Land. ALL faithful Christian peoples.
Note in Jeremiah 12:14-16, how Judah will be uprooted from the holy Land, along with all the ungodly neighbors. Judah; Jews will only be allowed to return; if they learn the ways of My people, that is: Christianity.
Most of the current inhabitants of the Jewish State of Israel will be killed in the forthcoming Lord's Day of fiery wrath, Isaiah 29:1-4, Zephaniah 1:14-18

The outreach to Israel in these endtimes are not an outreach to Gentile nations that turn to Christianity. Rather, it is an outreach to the exiled Jewish People, some of whom become Christians and some of whom have returned to the land of Israel. Yes, Israel will be judged, just like all other nations. But the result will be conformity to the Christian remnant among the Jewish People. Israel will become a Christian nation. The 1st nation to be a called nation of God will be the last to become a Christian nation. Just the way I see it....

 

[Randy Kluth]

If you read and knew what Judges 1:1-26 tells us what really happened; the failure of ancient Israel to *dispose of the wicked*, you would see how they never did what Good told them to do.
Only as they accepted the Gospel have they succeeded and we Christian peoples are the Israelites of God.

If my own personal clan succeeded in obeying God by establishing ownership of a particular neighborhood, can it be said that our clan failed if hundreds of years later the same clan lost that neighborhood?

But that's what you're saying. Israel obeyed God, took their land by conquest, and settled there, choosing to observe the Law of Moses as a people.

Later Israel rebelled--a different time and a different generation. But you suggest that implicates a failure on the part of those who obeyed earlier? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[covenantee]

I agree that faith and obedience on the part of the parents was important, as well as the promise that Isaac would have faith too. But it absolutely mattered that Isaac was the natural child of Abraham and Sarah.

Gen 18.13 Then the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard for the Lord? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”
Gen 21.1 Now the Lord was gracious to Sarah as he had said, and the Lord did for Sarah what he had promised. 2 Sarah became pregnant and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the very time God had promised him. 3 Abraham gave the name Isaac to the son Sarah bore him.

Faith is not the only criteria necessary for God to fulfil His promise to Abraham. Not only must the child of Abraham have faith, but he must be the natural son of both Abraham and Sarah!

Certainly, there was ultimately the birth of Isaac.

The salient point is that the essential prerequisites for that birth were the faith and obedience of his parents.

Without those prerequisites, there would have been no Isaac.

Nations that were promised to be nations based on faith would fall and need to be restored to God at the coming of Christ. These are all of the nations in history who have made covenant with God, including Israel who made covenant with God under the Law, and in the NT Christian nations, in Europe and elsewhere.

God does not covenant with nations.

He covenants only with faithful obedient individuals within nations.

The implication here in the question posed to Jesus by his disciples is that Israel would ultimately be restored. The question was *when* this will happen. And Jesus' response indicated that *when* it will happen is not the major concern with respect to their ministry. The important thing is to prepare people for final judgment today, and not be so concerned about when things will happen later.

Yes, the disciples were laboring under the illusion of a restoration of the kingdom to Israel.

Jesus quickly laid that illusion to rest.

Never again in all of NT Scripture is there seen any reference to a kingdom of Israel.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Certainly, there was ultimately the birth of Isaac.
The salient point is that the essential prerequisites for that birth were the faith and obedience of his parents.
Without those prerequisites, there would have been no Isaac.

The argument isn't that faith is unnecessary. The argument is that natural parenting, or ethnicity, was important and in fact, central. God promised Abraham not just a spiritual inheritance among the nations, but also, a biological inheritance in the nation Israel.

God does not covenant with nations.

Rom 9.4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.

He covenants only with faithful obedient individuals within nations.

He not only makes covenant with the faithful, but also, with entire nations, in the hope that they will all be faithful. He does not just wait to see who all will be faithful when He makes covenants with groups of people. He makes a covenant when they, as a group, all subscribe to His proposal. And then, God seals the covenant and waits to see who in this group will remain faithful to the covenant.

Take the typical marriage covenant. A man proposes a covenant to his bride even before either one of them have proven to be faithful in marriage. It is an initial covenant proposal so that over time opportunity exists to prove fidelity to the marriage covenant.

Yes, the disciples were laboring under the illusion of a restoration of the kingdom to Israel.
Jesus quickly laid that illusion to rest.

Sorry, we'll have to disagree on that. I don't see in Acts 1 Jesus correcting his disciples on the supposed "illusion" that they were mistaken to believe Israel would be restored. He simply corrected their misplaced interest in the question of *when* it would take place. In other words, he not only confirmed their presupposition that Israel would be restored, but he corrected their proper anticipation of that event.

Never again in all of NT Scripture is there seen any reference to a kingdom of Israel.

The Hope of Israel in a Messianic Kingdom is read by Jews as existing throughout the OT Prophets. And the assumption has to be made that Jews, in the time of Jesus, also believed in that. Jesus came with the Gospel promising that that day was "near." But it was *not yet.*

And so, the NT is predicated on the notion that Israel is temporarily cut off from their covenant relationship with God, while still retaining God's promise of their restoration. It is spelled out very clearly in Rom 9-11.

 

[covenantee]

The argument isn't that faith is unnecessary. The argument is that natural parenting, or ethnicity, was important and in fact, central. God promised Abraham not just a spiritual inheritance among the nations, but also, a biological inheritance in the nation Israel.

God slew biological Israelites by the thousands when they rebelled against Him and His Covenant. Their biology did not save them then, nor did it save them in 70AD, nor will it ever save them. "Flesh profiteth nothing".

You're attempting to impose df's racism on God and His Word.

He not only makes covenant with the faithful, but also, with entire nations, in the hope that they will all be faithful. He does not just wait to see who all will be faithful when He makes covenants with groups of people. He makes a covenant when they, as a group, all subscribe to His proposal. And then, God seals the covenant and waits to see who in this group will remain faithful to the covenant.

See above. You have yet to provide an example of God covenanting with unfaithfulness and disobedience. His prescription was death under the Old Covenant.

Sorry, we'll have to disagree on that. I don't see in Acts 1 Jesus correcting his disciples on the supposed "illusion" that they were mistaken to believe Israel would be restored. He simply corrected their misplaced interest in the question of *when* it would take place. In other words, he not only confirmed their presupposition that Israel would be restored, but he corrected their proper anticipation of that event.

1 Thessalonians 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Is that when you think that Israel will be restored?

The Hope of Israel in a Messianic Kingdom is read by Jews as existing throughout the OT Prophets. And the assumption has to be made that Jews, in the time of Jesus, also believed in that. Jesus came with the Gospel promising that that day was "near." But it was *not yet.*

And so, the NT is predicated on the notion that Israel is temporarily cut off from their covenant relationship with God, while still retaining God's promise of their restoration. It is spelled out very clearly in Rom 9-11.

No "predicated" or "notion". The NT is replete with the declarations that the covenant relationship with God is based on faith and obedience for all peoples irrespective of biology or anything else. (Acts 10:34-35)

I shouldn't need to reiterate the plethora of Scriptures declaring the fulfillment of the Kingdom of God in Christ and His gospel, should I?

There is utterly nothing in Romans 9-11 about Israel's restoration. Only a remnant, those who put their faith in Christ, will be saved. (Romans 9:27)

 

[Keraz]

One day there will be equality among nations, but Israel will not be preeminent, in my opinion.

It will be the Christian peoples who will be preeminent. As they, we will live in all of the holy Land, serving King Jesus. Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 66:21, Ezekiel 40 to 48

Yes, we disagree. Israel and Judah were reunited in the Jewish restoration during the days of Ezra and Nehemiah

History, the Bible and the present situation, all disagree that Israel and Judah have rejoined. The visible Israel is not as many as the sands of the sea, or have they received the Blessings Promised to Israel.
Over 160 Bible verses maintain this separation.
The rejoining of the remnant is prophesied to happen after the terrible Day of the Lord:
Isaiah 11:11-16 On that Day, the Lord will exert His power a second time, to recover the remnant of His people from all parts of the world, He will raise a standard for the nations. The scattered people of Judah and Ephraim will assemble and the ancient hostility between them, will cease. They will take over the area that was promised to Abraham. The Lord will make a road for them to travel into the Land, as He did for the ancient Israelites. Isaiah 35:1-10, Isaiah 49:8-13, Ezekiel 20:34-38

Yes, Israel will be judged, just like all other nations. But the result will be conformity to the Christian remnant among the Jewish People. Israel will become a Christian nation. The 1st nation to be a called nation of God will be the last to become a Christian nation. Just the way I see it....

What you fail to see, is the many prophesies which detail the final Judgment of Judah, Isaiah 22:1-14, is a good example. Verse 14 plainly states; they will die for their sins.

 

[Randy Kluth]

God slew biological Israelites by the thousands when they rebelled against Him and His Covenant. Their biology did not save them then, nor did it save them in 70AD, nor will it ever save them. "Flesh profiteth nothing".

Nobody is questioning God's right to judge Abraham's biological descendants when they turned against their God and broke their covenant with Him! Nobody is saying that going the way of carnality and self-sufficiency will bring divine blessings merely because they belong to a nation that was called of God!

See above. You have yet to provide an example of God covenanting with unfaithfulness and disobedience. His prescription was death under the Old Covenant.

God did not covenant with Israel under the Law only to slay them. He used the Law to show them that they need the Law to be fulfilled in Christ's death in order to fully be redeemed. Temporary redemption was not enough.

Nobody said God covenants with unfaithful disinterested people. He starts with people who express an interest in wanting to try. Israel as one cried out, "We will serve the Lord." They indicated the wish to try. Starting did not mean they would all succeed. But starting indicated God would eventually find a way to establish an entire nation dedicated to Himself.

1 Thessalonians 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Is that when you think that Israel will be restored?

Yes. The Battle of Armageddon will be, I think, a world war with the use of nuclear weapons. Across the earth the skies will be filled with giant plumes from bombs being dropped. The sun will be darkened from the smoke of all the fires. At night, the moon will appear as blood. This changing scenery will be an indication of a change in narrative, like a scroll being rolled up, the fulfillment of God's promises. A new government will establish God's rule on earth, and human governments will reflect that change.

No "predicated" or "notion". The NT is replete with the declarations that the covenant relationship with God is based on faith and obedience for all peoples irrespective of biology or anything else. (Acts 10:34-35)

Well yes, God's original plan was only to begin with Israel, and then spread out to cover the whole earth with the knowledge of God, "as the waters cover the sea." None of this means God didn't make special covenant agreements with specific nations and with specific individuals. God cares about *your family,* as well as *my family.* What we do before the Lord *matters!*

There is utterly nothing in Romans 9-11 about Israel's restoration. Only a remnant, those who put their faith in Christ, will be saved. (Romans 9:27)

You're changing the meaning then. It reads *all* Israel will be saved. That is, the salvation will scavenge an entire nation, and not just a fourth of it, or a smidgeon of one. It doesn't mean every person in the country will be saved, but that among those truly saved God will build an entire nation with all of the constituent and necessary parts.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It will be the Christian peoples who will be preeminent. As they, we will live in all of the holy Land, serving King Jesus. Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 66:21, Ezekiel 40 to 48

I agree, the Church will be preeminent on a Millennial earth.

History, the Bible and the present situation, all disagree that Israel and Judah have rejoined. The visible Israel is not as many as the sands of the sea, or have they received the Blessings Promised to Israel.

That term was already applied to Israel in the past. It is poetic imagery indicating that one would be so blessed that he wouldn't have to count. After the northern kingdom broke away from the southern kingdom, many from the northern kingdom joined the southern kingdom. From that time on, Judah became the future of Israel and included remnants of all 12 tribes. There would no longer be 2 nations, once Assyria carried away the northern kingdom.

Over 160 Bible verses maintain this separation. Prophesied to happen after the terrible Day of the Lord:
Isaiah 11:11-16 On that Day, the Lord will exert His power a second time, to recover the remnant of His people from all parts of the world, He will raise a standard for the nations. The scattered people of Judah and Ephraim will assemble and the ancient hostility between them, will cease. They will take over the area that was promised to Abraham. The Lord will make a road for them to travel into the Land, as He did for the ancient Israelites. Isaiah 35:1-10, Isaiah 49:8-13, Ezekiel 20:34-38

This isn't a separation. Israel, as a nation, was scattered. True believers among them were marginalized, ignored, and persecuted. But they were still part of Israel. Israel will be regathered, including those who do not yet believe and including those who will continue to disbelieve. There is no partition in Israel--there are only believers and unbelievers.

What you fail to see, is the many prophesies which detail the final Judgment of Judah, Isaiah 22:1-14, is a good example. Verse 14 plainly states; they will die for their sins.

To turn the nation into a godly nation, there will have to be great judgment.

 

[covenantee]

Yes. The Battle of Armageddon will be, I think, a world war with the use of nuclear weapons. Across the earth the skies will be filled with giant plumes from bombs being dropped. The sun will be darkened from the smoke of all the fires. At night, the moon will appear as blood. This changing scenery will be an indication of a change in narrative, like a scroll being rolled up, the fulfillment of God's promises. A new government will establish God's rule on earth, and human governments will reflect that change.

2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Provide any NT Scripture that in any way alludes to Israel after this event.

You're changing the meaning then. It reads *all* Israel will be saved. That is, the salvation will scavenge an entire nation, and not just a fourth of it, or a smidgeon of one. It doesn't mean every person in the country will be saved, but that among those truly saved God will build an entire nation with all of the constituent and necessary parts.

Paul identifies "all Israel".

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

 

[covenantee]

They indicated the wish to try.

That didn't last. They soon returned to idolatry, apostasy, and depravity, resulting in God's ongoing punishment, and ultimate complete destruction.

But starting indicated God would eventually find a way to establish an entire nation dedicated to Himself.

God utterly destroyed that nation in 70AD, and signaled that He was building His True Church, which would be a new nation. ( Matthew 16:18; 1 Peter 2:9).

 

[Randy Kluth]

2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Provide any NT Scripture that in any way alludes to Israel after this event.

1) The Abrahamic Promise, that Israel will be his inheritance. Gen 12.
2) The Prophets' confirmation of this Promise by promising a time when Israel will never again be destroyed by foreigners.
3) Recognition of the "Jewish Hope of a Messianic Kingdom," long acknowledged as in the OT Prophets by both Jews and Christians.

Jewish belief from Maimonides (1135-1204)
Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Melachim XI - XII.
The King Messiah will in some future time come, restore the kingdom of David to its former power, build the Temple, bring together the scattered of Israel, and all the ancient laws will again be in force. Sacrifices will be offered, and years of release and Jubilees will be kept as prescribed in the Torah. Whoever does not believe in him, or does not hope for his coming, shows a lack of faith not only in the prophets, but also in the Torah. For the Torah testifies concerning him in the words: 'And the L-rd your God will again bring back your captivity, and show mercy unto you, and again gather you from all the nations...If your outcasts be at the ends of the heavens, from there will the L-rd gather you...and the L-rd will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed...'(Deut. 30:3-5)

One website suggested the following reflect Israel's ultimate salvation:
Matt 23.34-39
23.34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’

Rom 11.7-12,25-28
11.7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”
9 And David says:
“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!...
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs

Eze 34.23-31; 36.22-27; 37.5-10,14-16,19,24-28
34.23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them...
36.22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone...
37.5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life...
14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”...
24 “‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd.

Dan 9.27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Zech 12.10-11; 13.7-9; 14.8-11
12.10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.
13.7 “Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is close to me!”
declares the Lord Almighty.
“Strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered,
and I will turn my hand against the little ones.
8 In the whole land,” declares the Lord,
“two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one-third will be left in it.
9 This third I will put into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, ‘They are my people,’
and they will say, ‘The Lord is our God.’”
14.8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.
9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.
10 The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up high from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses, and will remain in its place. 11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.

Isa 62.1-3
Isa 62.1For Zion’s sake I will not keep silent,
for Jerusalem’s sake I will not remain quiet,
till her vindication shines out like the dawn,
her salvation like a blazing torch.
2 The nations will see your vindication,
and all kings your glory;
you will be called by a new name
that the mouth of the Lord will bestow.
3 You will be a crown of splendor in the Lord’s hand

Paul identifies "all Israel".

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Paul was not arguing there are 2 Israels. He is arguing that Israel, to whom the promise was made, can have individuals cut off from Israel when they are faithless.

Nothing new about this. All through the Wilderness journey, people in Israel were cut off for their infidelities and rebellion against God, for their failure to properly keep their covenant agreement with God.

The agreement consisted of giving rewards for obedience and meting out punishments for disobedience. Ultimately, those persistent in their rebellion would be cut off from the land.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

The idea concerns the totality of a national entity, as opposed to just a small part of a nation. It is not a division between two Israels, leaving only half of Israel to be half of a nation.