This really grabbed me today!

[stunnedbygrace]

I'm referring to John's vision in Revelation of seeing souls under the altar.
The account of Moses and Elijah appearing to Jesus on the mountain has totally different context......but to clarify the event of the transfiguration as I read it, it was literal.

So then, if it was literal, they had consciousness. But a case could be made that they never died yet but will die in the future.

edit: I had that wrong. Moses died. Satan argued with an angel over his body.

 

[quietthinker]

You’ve reminded me of a dream I had…I can’t remember it all. It took place in a courtroom and had something to do with blood talking during the trial. I saw the one on trial, but could not see the martyrs, but I could hear their blood talking. Weird huh?

hmmmm, dreams of this nature by average punters like you and me are definitely things I shelve. Others, as I have read here are quick to put some spin on it. I keep that spin at arms length.

 

[Brakelite]

But scripture also has martyrs under the altar in heaven saying, when will you avenge us? And scripture also has Moses and Elijah speaking with Jesus during the Transfiguration. Just as with everything, there are both statements, both sets of scripture.

Under the altar speaks metaphorically of the blood that is spilt and runs down into the ground...KJV Genesis 4:10
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Remember. Scripture explains scripture.
Moses was resurrected. See Jude. Elijah was translated without seeing death. Both were types of what takes place at the second coming... The dead are raised and those that are alive translated.

 

[Brakelite]

Under the altar speaks metaphorically of the blood that is spilt and runs down into the ground...KJV Genesis 4:10
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Remember. Scripture explains scripture.
Moses was resurrected. See Jude. Elijah was translated without seeing death. Both were types of what takes place at the second coming... The dead are raised and those that are alive translated.

They are also types representing the law and the prophets. But that's another story.

 

[quietthinker]

So then, if it was literal, they had consciousness. But a case could be made that they never died yet but will die in the future.

Yes, a case like that could be made but I seriously doubt it has any credibility. As I have said previously, an incorrect assumption made by context taken out of its setting definitely sets one for a fantasy tour.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Well it seems the question of what Jesus gained from his mother hasn't been answered since I hit the sack last night. @Johann ran a mile so lets ask it again. If Jesus pre-existed, which I don't believe he did, but lets make the assumption...what of his person did he receive from his mother, if not in bodily form? Keeping in mind Jesus was in the line of Adam, Abraham and David. I mean Yahweh is not a Jew, but Jesus is; Yahweh is not a man, but Jesus is. Now it's impossible to say the exalted Jesus is the same Jesus who pre-existed, because then you not only have the problem of Mary, but all her lineage.

Or, does the Trinity force you to say Jesus gained "nothing" from his Jewish line, he only pretended to look like Jesus, but now returns as a god in another form?

I already posted scripture from Isaiah but I will post these and ask who is the scriptures speaking of?
Isaiah 45 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
²¹ Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
²² Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
²³ I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
²⁴ Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
²⁵ In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

 

[Brakelite]

So then, if it was literal, they had consciousness. But a case could be made that they never died yet but will die in the future.

Yes, some go in that direction claiming they are the two "witnesses" just prior to the second coming. I say nonsense. Is God that cruel to demand even more of them than they have already given? The two witnesses are the law and prophets. "If they don't believe Moses, neither will they believe if one is raised from the dead".

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Wait…it wasn’t Moses that didn’t die. It was Elijah and…Enoch. I’ve thought that because of this, they might be the two witnesses in Revelation who are killed and then rise up. Since it is appointed to a man to die once and they never appeared to have died.

 

[quietthinker]

Wait…it wasn’t Moses that didn’t die. It was Elijah and…Enoch. I’ve thought that because of this, they might be the two witnesses in Revelation who are killed and then rise up. Since it is appointed to a man to die once and they never appeared to have died.

Luke 24:27 'And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.'

Here we have a window into who the two witnesses are.

Edit......ie, the writings of the OT

 

[amigo de christo]

Wait…it wasn’t Moses that didn’t die. It was Elijah and…Enoch. I’ve thought that because of this, they might be the two witnesses in Revelation who are killed and then rise up. Since it is appointed to a man to die once and they never appeared to have died.

We shall not all sleep but we shall be changed . Paul and many others waited for what this generation is about to SEE ,
THE COMING OF THE GLORIOUS LORD and it indeed draws nigh . But hard times shall get only worse in this world
delusions will abound and many will betray one another . OH but our HOPE IS IN THE GLORIOUS LORD .
IF we suffer for HIM we shall rejoice . And if we do die we are present with the KING
and some of us will still be here AT HIS COMING . OH what a day of rejoicing that will be when the glorious LORD who has saved us
we shall SEE . Let all that draws breath praise the glorious LORD .

 

[face2face]

I already posted scripture from Isaiah but I will post these and ask who is the scriptures speaking of?
Isaiah 45 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
²¹ Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
²² Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
²³ I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
²⁴ Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
²⁵ In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

True there is no God beside Yahweh (the Shema Deuteronomy 6:4)

“I am the Lord, I have no peer" true even today! 1 Corinthians 11:3

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I’ve also wondered about those who died and were raised to life again, like Lazarus. If it’s appointed to a man to die once, and since we don’t have any accounts of them dying a second time, did God maybe just take them too, rather than them dying a second time?

 

[face2face]

Just think @Johann is sound to sleep right now it's 3:44am in Durban and he is dreaming about his Hebrew & Greek lexicons. Snuggle up for in the morning the reposte begins...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

hmmmm, dreams of this nature by average punters like you and me are definitely things I shelve. Others, as I have read here are quick to put some spin on it. I keep that spin at arms length.

I don’t keep them at arms length, although I do think a lot of nonsense goes on about them.

 

[face2face]

I’ve also wondered about those who died and were raised to life again, like Lazarus. If it’s appointed to a man to die once, and since we don’t have any accounts of them dying a second time, did God maybe just take them too, rather than them dying a second time?

He died...like all those raised at the Lord's crucifixion. No such thing as Heaven going...biggest fallacy ever.

 

[Enoch111]

Since it is appointed to a man to die once and they never appeared to have died.

As you well know the Rapture cancels that idea. So each thing in its proper context. Neither Enoch nor Elijah died, and all the saints who will be caught up to Heaven -- even while alive -- will definitely not die.

 

[Enoch111]

He died...like all those raised at the Lord's crucifixion. No such thing as Heaven going...biggest fallacy ever.

Well if you do not believe in Heaven, just ask the Lord to shut you out of Heaven.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Luke 24:27 'And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.'

Here we have a window into who the two witnesses are.

Edit......ie, the writings of the OT

I admit Moses makes more sense except for the fact that it would have him dying twice.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

As you well know the Rapture cancels that idea. So each thing in its proper context. Neither Enoch nor Elijah died, and all the saints who will be caught up to Heaven -- even while alive -- will definitely not die.

Yes, well that’s a different story.

 

[face2face]

Well if you do not believe in Heaven, just ask the Lord to shut you out of Heaven.

It's not the destination for the meek! Matthew 5:5

 

[face2face]

I admit Moses makes more sense except for the fact that it would have him dying twice.

God took his life the first time...nothing for him a second!