This really grabbed me today!

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Aunty Jane

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i mean we literally have “believers” openly declaring how they hate this life on earth, eh

and i have also heard, on this forum, more than once, believers stating that if they could not become immortal then there was abs no point to Christianity

these are both…grave sins, imo, and these ppl are lost
at least right now, imo
I too often wonder why people find life on earth to be an abhorrent thought. If you take away the bad stuff, which only came about when humans defected from their Creator, life on earth would have been nothing but joyous. There was even the a means to guarantee that life would continue forever as long as the humans were obedient. The earth was made for us....and we were made for the earth.

Taking any human to heaven was never on God’s agenda because he had a whole family in heaven already. Earth was not intended as a training ground for another life...it was to be man’s permanent home. The Bible does not teach anything else.
 

face2face

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No worries...it’s busy life.
hello



I see them fitting in as the scriptures tell us.
Why did God choose the Israelites in the first place, and what role were they to play in biblical history?

The Bible tells us that God chose Abraham (the only person in the Bible to be called “Jehovah’s friend”) to be the father of a great nation through whom a seed would come....this was part of Christ's credentials.
James 2:21-23....
“Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend.”

So what was the relationship of this nation to Jehovah? It was the only nation on earth to be in a covenant relationship with their God, with every individual obligated by birth to keep the laws God gave to them, with often severe penalties if they failed to uphold them. But along with the penalties, God also provided a way to forgive repentant ones with a sacrificial system that could grant temporary forgiveness, and that needed to be repeated often. Blood was used to represent life.
God gave a perfect law to imperfect people to remind them on a regular basis of the need for the promised seed.....their Messiah...the savior who would bring the rulership of God's Kingdom to the earth and install the Israelites as his "kings and priests".

Because they were in a covenant with Jehovah, he had told them that it was based on their obedience to his commands, (Exodus 19:5-6) which if we check Israel’s history, they never were. So from God’s standpoint he kept his end of the covenant in force until his purpose in connection with his chosen nation was fulfilled.

Isaiah had prophesied that "only a remnant" of natural Israel would be saved, (Romans 9:27) and Jesus was sent only to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”....he was not sent to the corrupt religious leaders, whom he pronounced as incorrigible in Matthew 23....bound for “Gehenna”.

He finished his judgment on Israel with these words...
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”

In the intervening two thousand years, the natural Jews as a nation have never “blessed the one who came in Jehovah's name”....the one Jehovah sent to to save them. They reject him as much today as they did back in the first century.

So in lieu of that situation God chose a new nation to serve as "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16). These were made up of the faithful Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah, and also the Gentile believers who came into God's nation later. (Acts 15:14) Fleshly Israel was cast off...abandoned, stripped of the right to be God's "royal priesthood and a holy nation". (Matthew 21:43)


This promise made to his apostles on the night that he instituted the new covenant.
“However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel."

These were the first, or foundation members of "the Israel of God"......spiritual Israel. (Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 3:29)
Fleshly Israel counted on their fleshly relationship with Abraham to see them through their disobedience, but as John B told the Pharisees....
"Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire." (Matthew 3:9-10) The ax fell...the trees were cut down.


All that was promised to fleshly Israel was passed on to spiritual Israel. Types and shadows are all there in the Hebrew scriptures.


I see a spiritual temple in heaven that was represented by the physical Temple in Jerusalem.
It was no coincidence that the literal temple in Jerusalem was destroyed after Christ's death, but never rebuilt. There was no longer a need for a physical temple.
Since God's royal priesthood serves in this spiritual temple they are taken from the earth and "born again", resurrected in a spiritual body just as Jesus was to serve God as High Priest along with his elect, and bring blessing to redeemed mankind on earth. (Revelation 21:2-4)


It simply makes sense as we study the scriptures and a 'big picture' emerges that ties Genesis and Revelation together as the beginning and end of one story.....the salvation of the human race, enslaved to sin and death through the actions of one man (Romans 5:12) until a benevolent benefactor provided the redemption price....willingly and lovingly, to free them and restore them to the life God first purposed for the human race...everlasting life in paradise on earth.....

There is much in here I agree with Jane, but I believe your heavenly hope has removed a considerable number of prophecies yet to be fulfilled.

I agree natural Israel will be heavily purged/refined at Christs coming Jeremiah 3:14 (however, there will be a natural Israel in the Kingdom age! Jeremiah 31:33 yet to happen!

Isaiah 2:1-4 cmp Isaiah 56:7 cmp Matthew 21:12 Matthew 21:13 Matthew 21:14 - (My house will be called) The King must sit upon David's throne (on earth!) and there must be some form of a temple for the nations to come year on year to offer sacrifices. Maybe your incorrect interpretation of the 144,000 has caused you to disregard the fulfillment of these KOE (Kingdom on earth) prophecies?

As I said, everything else you have written in regards to the Israelitish hope, John 4:22 I agree, that we have been grafted into their hope and promises, that you cannot deny. A better understanding it to see the work of the Lord Jesus Christ with the saints on earth when he returns, which I sense you lack at this present time.

Romans 11:11 I ask then, they did not stumble into an irrevocable fall, did they? Absolutely not! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel jealous. 11:12 Now if their transgression means riches for the world and their defeat means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full restoration (inclusion) bring?

Good question Jane?
 
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Aunty Jane

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I believe we should discuss the truth of God's Word with humility and in a spirit of love.
Yes, it would be lovely if we could all do that......but we are on the brink of our 'Promised Land', just as the Israelites were thousands of years ago.....it was a time when many of them fell, because they let down their guard. They had spent 40 years in the wilderness and just when they were about to experience what they had been waiting so long to achieve....they failed because of disobedience, allowing satan to lure them into a trap......many more will fail in our day because of not appreciating what it means to qualify for entry into our 'Promised Land'. (Luke 13:24)

According to Daniel, a "cleansing, whitening and refining" was to occur in this "time of the end" (Daniel 12:9-10)....so this indicates to me that the need to clean up God's worship was reserved for our day. So who have cleaned up their worship, and how have they done so? What happened in the past that tells us about what was to happen in the future?

There is so much we still haven't come to fully understand and the Bible says some things are kept hidden until the appointed time.
I believe the appointed time is now. As Daniel prophesied regarding the "time of the end"...."knowledge would become abundant". (Daniel 12:4)...its what people do with the knowledge (that is available now to all) that makes the difference. We have less excuse for ignorance now than at any other time in history.

We all see in part and know in part...
I don't believe that is true now....it was true in the first century, but Jesus has been "present" for over a hundred years now, resurrecting his elect in preparation for his incoming Kingdom, and guiding and directing the global preaching work that he commissioned before he left, (Matthew 28:19-20).....and we are now in the final part of the "last days" of this present system of things...struggling in a world that is caving in all around us...."just like the days of Noah" Jesus said, (Matthew 24:37-39)....with a proliferation of violence and immorality that is embraced as everyday life, just as it was back then.

So some are still growing in the knowledge of the Word...you can't expect a new born Christian to be skilled in the Word until he has been taught.
So IMHO, we should lead by example in how we are to walk and talk like Christ.
I couldn't agree more, but even when some claim to be "taught", their lack of knowledge becomes evident by their unchristian attitude when you disagree with what they believe, then the insults fly....demonstrating in almost every post that they are ignorant, unteachable, and proud of it, so it's hard not to respond as Jesus did on occasion when he confronted the same attitude. They "strain at gnats but gulp down camels". (Matthew 23:24; 33)

One day soon there will be no such dissension, because all dissenters will be removed. We just have to hope that we will not be among them.

Jesus knows who are "doing the will of the Father" and at the end of the day, that's all that matters. (Matthew 7:21-23)
 

Aunty Jane

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There is much in here I agree with Jane, but I believe your heavenly hope has removed a considerable number of prophecies yet to be fulfilled.
Can you elaborate on this please F2F? What "heavenly hope" have I jumped the gun on do you think?

I agree natural Israel will be heavily purged/refined at Christs coming Jeremiah 3:14 (however, there will be a natural Israel in the Kingdom age! Jeremiah 31:33 yet to happen!
This is speaking about what "Israel" was promised with regard to the "new covenant", but failed to achieve....it was fulfilled on "the Israel of God". (Galatians 6:16) Not fleshly Israel but spiritual Israel.

As I said, everything else you have written in regards to the Israelitish hope, John 4:22 I agree, that we have been grafted into their hope and promises, that you cannot deny. A better understanding it to see the work of the Lord Jesus Christ with the saints on earth when he returns, which I sense you lack at this present time.
I take it that you expect to see Christ reigning on earth rather than over it then?
At what point does Christ "return", and what will he accomplish when he does? Where is he now?
John 14:2-4...
"In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be. 4 And where I am going, you know the way.”

Where is the "house" of Jesus' "Father" that "has many dwelling places"? Christ was going to heaven to prepare a place for his elect......the ones with "the heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1) Can you tell me when he takes them there? How and when does the "first resurrection" take place? (Revelation 20:6)

Romans 11:11 I ask then, they did not stumble into an irrevocable fall, did they? Absolutely not! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel jealous. 11:12 Now if their transgression means riches for the world and their defeat means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full restoration (inclusion) bring?

Good question Jane?
If you say so.....reading the following two verses, it says...
"Now I speak to you who are people of the nations. Seeing that I am an apostle to the nations, I glorify my ministry 14 to see if I may in some way incite my own people to jealousy and save some from among them."

Paul goes on to say...(17-21)
"However, if some of the branches were broken off and you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the richness of the olive’s root, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If, though, you are arrogant toward them, remember that you do not bear the root, but the root bears you. 19 You will say, then: “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true! For their lack of faith, they were broken off, but you are standing by faith. Do not be haughty, but be in fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you."
Here is a word of warning, not to presume on the position of those grafted in.....they too could be cut off for the same failure that resulted in Israel being "abandoned" as incorrigibly wicked.

When Paul said...
"For I do not want you to be unaware of this sacred secret, brothers, so that you do not become wise in your own eyes: A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26 and in this manner all Israel will be saved."

The "Israel" who will be saved is spiritual Israel. (Romans 2:29) Jehovah cast off the disobedient fleshly Jews and adopted the Gentile disciples of his son, who are "all Israel" in Paul's statement there. John B said that God could raise up children for Abraham from the stones, (Matthew 3:9).....gratefully he didn't have to.
 

Lambano

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i mean we literally have “believers” openly declaring how they hate this life on earth, eh

and i have also heard, on this forum, more than once, believers stating that if they could not become immortal then there was abs no point to Christianity

these are both…grave sins, imo, and these ppl are lost
at least right now, imo
Hmm. You mean, saying "If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied" (1 Corinthians 15:19) is a grave sin? :p

I've also heard, "the only reason to follow Jesus is to avoid Hell". That's what preaching hellfire and damnation is all about. Save your own life. I've been there, and I didn't find my life there.
 

Taken

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I too often wonder why people find life on earth to be an abhorrent thought. If you take away the bad stuff, which only came about when humans defected from their Creator, life on earth would have been nothing but joyous. There was even the a means to guarantee that life would continue forever as long as the humans were obedient. The earth was made for us....and we were made for the earth.

Taking any human to heaven was never on God’s agenda because he had a whole family in heaven already. Earth was not intended as a training ground for another life...it was to be man’s permanent home. The Bible does not teach anything else.

A HUMAN is a natural Earthly man.
Yes Earth was Established for a Humans Habitat.
Yes A Division was Established Between Heaven and Earth.
Yes there is an ongoing Division of Humans ON Earth.
...Some Choosing an Everlasting Life WITH God their Creator & Maker.
...Some Choosing an Everlasting SEPARATION From God their Creator & Maker.

*For Centuries Human Men have been Making “their” Freewill choice.
*For Centuries Human Men (Bodies) have been Dying, returning to Dust of the Earth.
*For Centuries God Has been Saving departed Living souls WITH Him VIA Gods Celestial Servants escorting those “living souls” to Heaven.
*For Centuries God Has been Sending departed Living souls “WITHOUT” Him, to Hell.

* Correct. Earth was from the Beginning Established as a HABIT for Human ManKIND.

* BIG PICTURE...
* Human ManKIND...became Corrupt.
* Earth ... became Corrupt.
* Gods INTENT...to Destroy Earths Corruption...Re-MAKE Earth holy.
* Gods INTENT...Re-MAKE the lower Heaven(S) holy.
* Gods OFFERING...Destroy Corrupt manKIND...Re-MAKE manKINDS Body, holy.
* On going process...The UNSEEN GOD...First Dealing with a Human Mans UNSEEN “inside”....living soul...spirit.
* Finale...YET to come to pass.
* Divisions of Human Men to be accomplish-ED
* Separations of Human Men to be accomplish-ED.
* Separations of Celestial Beings to be accomplish-ED
* New Heaven(S) to be accomplish-ED
* New Earth to be accomplish-ED

* Barrier Between the Old Heavens and Old Earth, Opened UP...
ONE Kingdom of God Serving New Heavens AND Earth.
ALL Occupants in complete Agreement Serving the Lord God Almighty.

True. Heaven was never designed for HUMAN man’s occupation/habitat.
HUMAN men will cease to exist.
HUMAN by definition IS a created being that IS subject to and must DIE.
Dead Humans, Raised Up in a NEW BODY, (no BLOOD) are no longer Human, or Subject to or Can Die.
Remember, the LIFE of a HUMAN man, IS his BLOOD.

Glory to God,
Supreme Power, Creator, Giver of Life, Taker of Life, Maker, Re-MAKER,

Taken
 

Taken

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Hmm. You mean, saying "If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied" (1 Corinthians 15:19) is a grave sin? :p

I've also heard, "the only reason to follow Jesus is to avoid Hell". That's what preaching hellfire and damnation is all about. Save your own life. I've been there, and I didn't find my life there.

Truth and INTENT, INTENT, INTENT motives.

AVOID hell is the FEAR (afraid) factor premise.
..(was long time openly taught, preached, By Catholics and Protestants)
.. still “hell fire” taught, and still taught with an “undertone”.

UNITE WITH the Lord God is the FEAR (Reverence) factor premise, Scripture teaches.
.. Unique to find a Church in today’s Preaching.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

amadeus

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i mean we literally have “believers” openly declaring how they hate this life on earth, eh

and i have also heard, on this forum, more than once, believers stating that if they could not become immortal then there was abs no point to Christianity

these are both…grave sins, imo, and these ppl are lost
at least right now, imo

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

Is anyone here selfish?

"Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself." Phil 2:3
 
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stunnedbygrace

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i mean we literally have “believers” openly declaring how they hate this life on earth, eh

Well, I am one of those “believers.” Which, by the way, is an accusation itself, that you put the word in quote marks. I don’t care for my life of pride, resentments and snobbishness. I have set it down as of no account so that I might be found in Him. I am not in any way upset that you think I’ve gone the wrong way.
 
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marks

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“someone who believes that they might become immortal in an ‘afterlife’ might easily be persuaded to neglect things that would make this life better”
I don't see it that way.

Someone who believes that they will live forever in a blissful afterlife may not feel the need so much to cling to things here, rendering them more capable to both enjoy this life, and to help others.

I think that eternal security is the best foundation for the abundant life now.

Much love!
 

marks

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believers stating that if they could not become immortal then there was abs no point to Christianity
Include the apostle Paul in that lot . . . well, actually he didn't say Christianity would be pointless, rather, that he, and the rest of us, were the most pathetic of anyone.

Much love!
 

bbyrd009

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You mean, saying "If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied" (1 Corinthians 15:19) is a grave sin?
i would read that after i have read this; “Society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in” to suggest the likely context
 

bbyrd009

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Well, I am one of those “believers.” Which, by the way, is an accusation itself, that you put the word in quote marks. I don’t care for my life of pride, resentments and snobbishness. I have set it down as of no account so that I might be found in Him. I am not in any way upset that you think I’ve gone the wrong way.
well, leave the world is a difficult concept to get a handle on i guess, at least for me
 

bbyrd009

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Someone who believes that they will live forever in a blissful afterlife may not feel the need so much to cling to things here, rendering them more capable to both enjoy this life, and to help others
im sure that might also happen, sometimes…sure doesnt seem to be the default tho
 
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bbyrd009

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Include the apostle Paul in that lot . . . well, actually he didn't say Christianity would be pointless, rather, that he, and the rest of us, were the most pathetic of anyone
well, there is an “if” in there, and tbh i think most people read that the same way they read “absent from the body,” iow “to their own destruction”

I said “you are Elohim”
would pretty much preclude Paul from referring to people as “worthless” i think, unless he was pandering to a certain pov, which i guess Paul does do sometimes.

Point being i doubt i will need to include Paul in that lot, even if Paul did ultimately suggest that most believers are the most to be pitied, bc they include themselves in the “if” by default
 

Heart2Soul

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im sure that might also happen, sometimes…sure doesnt seem to be the default tho
Paul said it best...Philippians 1 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
²¹ For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
²² But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
²³ For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
²⁴ Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
²⁵ And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
²⁶ That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
 
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bbyrd009

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Tbh this is why i love the Bible, for the turns of phrase that are first read one way, from our perspective, and only later reveal a different perspective that just cannot be even seen by those reading the first way. Yes, you are the saddest sack in the room if you believe Christ came only for “this life” i guess
 

bbyrd009

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Paul said it best...Philippians 1 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
²¹ For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
²² But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
²³ For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
²⁴ Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
²⁵ And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
²⁶ That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
ok, but i guess you prolly wouldnt like my interpretation of that passage much either! :)
suffice it to say that that one likely does not mean what we first imagine either, as you might note by the first v, and the “if” that comes next; why would Paul say “if” there? “And having this confidence” is another—confidence in what? Prolly not what you first think, i bet

so while i dont know, i suggest that both v21 and v23 are being misinterpreted, at least, and the whole passage changes when read from a different perspective, ok? See, it can be easy to imagine that Paul is saying “i wish i was absent from the body, and present with the Lord” when Paul never said “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” anyway, and what he did do was cleverly write a passage so as to illuminate those who think that way

i suggest that it is more likely that Paul is saying something like “id rather be somewhere else communing with Yah, but ‘when in Rome’ is what i need to do for you guys right now”
 
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Heart2Soul

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Yes, it would be lovely if we could all do that......but we are on the brink of our 'Promised Land', just as the Israelites were thousands of years ago.....it was a time when many of them fell, because they let down their guard. They had spent 40 years in the wilderness and just when they were about to experience what they had been waiting so long to achieve....they failed because of disobedience, allowing satan to lure them into a trap......many more will fail in our day because of not appreciating what it means to qualify for entry into our 'Promised Land'. (Luke 13:24)

According to Daniel, a "cleansing, whitening and refining" was to occur in this "time of the end" (Daniel 12:9-10)....so this indicates to me that the need to clean up God's worship was reserved for our day. So who have cleaned up their worship, and how have they done so? What happened in the past that tells us about what was to happen in the future?


I believe the appointed time is now. As Daniel prophesied regarding the "time of the end"...."knowledge would become abundant". (Daniel 12:4)...its what people do with the knowledge (that is available now to all) that makes the difference. We have less excuse for ignorance now than at any other time in history.


I don't believe that is true now....it was true in the first century, but Jesus has been "present" for over a hundred years now, resurrecting his elect in preparation for his incoming Kingdom, and guiding and directing the global preaching work that he commissioned before he left, (Matthew 28:19-20).....and we are now in the final part of the "last days" of this present system of things...struggling in a world that is caving in all around us...."just like the days of Noah" Jesus said, (Matthew 24:37-39)....with a proliferation of violence and immorality that is embraced as everyday life, just as it was back then.


I couldn't agree more, but even when some claim to be "taught", their lack of knowledge becomes evident by their unchristian attitude when you disagree with what they believe, then the insults fly....demonstrating in almost every post that they are ignorant, unteachable, and proud of it, so it's hard not to respond as Jesus did on occasion when he confronted the same attitude. They "strain at gnats but gulp down camels". (Matthew 23:24; 33)

One day soon there will be no such dissension, because all dissenters will be removed. We just have to hope that we will not be among them.

Jesus knows who are "doing the will of the Father" and at the end of the day, that's all that matters. (Matthew 7:21-23)
Your argument is very good but still doesn't justify what scripture tells us to do.
However my point is without power to change...all I can do is plant seed....let others water... but it is God who gives the increase.
The Holy Spirit knows how to change the heart of man when they listen to Him.
Amen?
 
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Heart2Soul

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ok, but i guess you prolly wouldnt like my interpretation of that passage much either! :)
suffice it to say that that one likely does not mean what we first imagine either, as you might note by the first v, and the “if” that comes next; why would Paul say “if” there?

so while i dont know, i suggest that both v21 and v23 are being misinterpreted, at least, and the whole passage changes when read from a different perspective, ok?
I don't find the word if....I went and read the whole Chapter and it there isn't an if in there anywhere.