This really grabbed me today!

[bbyrd009]

I don't find the word if....I went and read the whole Chapter and it there isn't an if in there anywhere.

v22, in your own Quote of the passage

and just let me suggest that when Jesus or Paul say “if,” it is a big deal, that means only one of two things, but id have to marinate on how to bring that out. Ok maybe three things. No, almost surely only two things
lol

 

[marks]

well, there is an “if” in there, and tbh i think most people read that the same way they read “absent from the body,” iow “to their own destruction”

I said “you are Elohim” would pretty much preclude Paul from referring to people as “worthless” i think, unless he was pandering to a certain pov, which i guess Paul does do sometimes.

Point being i doubt i will need to include Paul in that lot, even if Paul did ultimately suggest that most believers are the most to be pitied, bc they include themselves in the “if” by default

That's not what I get from that passage.

The general theme of the Bible seems to me to be that we deny the things of the flesh and of the world, realizing that as long as we cling to worldly and fleshy things, we won't be taking hold of heavenly things, and the heavenly things are what we will more benefit from having. And that being a gross understatement.

I suggest to you that Christ being raised is exactly that, an actual man who, about 2000 years ago, lived and died and lived again, and did all those things written about him, that man being Jesus Christ, not just "John Doe from Nowhere", but Jesus of Nazareth, a real Man.

And that we believe in His resurrection, and if He didn't actually rise from the dead, we'd be the most pathetic of all, believing such worthless nonsense, but He DID rise from the dead, and these men and women were witnesses, and their testimony is true.

Much love!

 

[marks]

i suggest that it is more likely that Paul is saying something like “id rather be somewhere else communing with Yah, but ‘when in Rome’ is what i need to do for you guys right now”

The way it seems to me is that this removes the meanings to the words written, and "arbritrarily" replaces them with something else. It's not fair use of language to interpret in that way, IMO.

But what happens when you read it the way written?

Paul was "cleverly hiding" the meaning he was communicating? By that method, I can make that passage say a lot of different things, as I'm sure you could to. Because when you leave the established uses of the words, they are plastic in your hand, and you can make of them anything you want.

Is that not true??

To depart and be with Christ . . . to abide here in the flesh.

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

That's not what I get from that passage.

The general theme of the Bible seems to me to be that we deny the things of the flesh and of the world, realizing that as long as we cling to worldly and fleshy things, we won't be taking hold of heavenly things, and the heavenly things are what we will more benefit from having. And that being a gross understatement.

I suggest to you that Christ being raised is exactly that, an actual man who, about 2000 years ago, lived and died and lived again, and did all those things written about him, that man being Jesus Christ, not just "John Doe from Nowhere", but Jesus of Nazareth, a real Man.

And that we believe in His resurrection, and if He didn't actually rise from the dead, we'd be the most pathetic of all, believing such worthless nonsense, but He DID rise from the dead, and these men and women were witnesses, and their testimony is true.

Much love!

well, i thought the same for about forty years myself…but I came that you might have life, more abundantly just sure doesnt seem to much go with “i hate life on earth” imo. Best of luck with the Death, More Abundantly tho, i hope it works out for you

 

[marks]

im sure that might also happen, sometimes…sure doesnt seem to be the default tho

The way the Bible reads, that's the recommended method.

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

The way it seems to me is that this removes the meanings to the words written, and "arbritrarily" replaces them with something else. It's not fair use of language to interpret in that way, IMO.

But what happens when you read it the way written?

Paul was "cleverly hiding" the meaning he was communicating? By that method, I can make that passage say a lot of different things, as I'm sure you could to. Because when you leave the established uses of the words, they are plastic in your hand, and you can make of them anything you want.

Is that not true??

Much love!

well, we are warned that Paul is usually interpreted to ppls destruction, and to be fair there is usually only a couple ways that a passage could be interpreted, and we have the rest of Scripture to test those ways by, too

 

[bbyrd009]

The way the Bible reads, that's the recommended method.

Much love!

well, we are warned that Paul is usually interpreted to ppls destruction

^

but fwiw my current guide is, if a religious person interprets the Bible one way, seek another interpretation

 

[marks]

well, i thought the same for about forty years myself…but I came that you might have life, more abundantly just sure doesnt seem to much go with “i hate life on earth” imo. Best of luck with the Death, More Abundantly tho, i hope it works out for you

For one thing . . . I'm not the guy saying I hate life on earth, though I'm no friend of the world or the flesh. You're endless nonsense of "death more abundantly", seriously, peddle that to someone else. You are not over the target. You never were. It's just tiresome hearing that from you, like it's your default. Just tell 'em, death more abundantly, death more abundantly, death more abundantly . . .

But you're not going to see that life more abundant until you can let go this world, and set your mind on things above.

Best of luck to you too!

Much love!

 

[marks]

well, we are warned that Paul is usually interpreted to ppls destruction,

No, that's not what Peter wrote.

Much love!

 

[marks]

^

but fwiw my current guide is, if a religious person interprets the Bible one way, seek another interpretation

A religious person? OK then. Even a broken clock is right twice a day . . . that seems hardly a good rule of thumb. For myself, I think the right idea is to learn what the passage says, and believe it.

It really doesn't sound that we have anything like the same kind of approach to the Bible.

well, we are warned that Paul is usually interpreted to ppls destruction,

2 Peter 3:16 LITV
16) as also in all his epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the unlearned and unsettled pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Much love!

 

[marks]

and to be fair there is usually only a couple ways that a passage could be interpreted, and we have the rest of Scripture to test those ways by, too

And there is quite often one way. And we have lots of those, so we can make some pretty good determinations of what has been written. Then all that remains is to see whether or not we'll accept it's saying, or whether we will take it from it's context, and change around a word here and there, and use it against other Scripture, as if the altered snippet were still Scripture . . . but I digress . . .

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

“Most people dont really want the truth. They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth.”

 

[marks]

“Most people dont really want the truth. They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth.”

Do you speak for yourself, or for others? Most people?

"Most people are self-affirming as they speak things about others."

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

“Most people dont really want the truth. They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth.”

“Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest”

(Paul Simon, “The Boxer”)

 

[Aunty Jane]

A HUMAN is a natural Earthly man.
Yes Earth was Established for a Humans Habitat.
Yes A Division was Established Between Heaven and Earth.
Yes there is an ongoing Division of Humans ON Earth.
...Some Choosing an Everlasting Life WITH God their Creator & Maker.
...Some Choosing an Everlasting SEPARATION From God their Creator & Maker.

*For Centuries Human Men have been Making “their” Freewill choice.
*For Centuries Human Men (Bodies) have been Dying, returning to Dust of the Earth.
*For Centuries God Has been Saving departed Living souls WITH Him VIA Gods Celestial Servants escorting those “living souls” to Heaven.
*For Centuries God Has been Sending departed Living souls “WITHOUT” Him, to Hell.

* Correct. Earth was from the Beginning Established as a HABIT for Human ManKIND.

* BIG PICTURE...
* Human ManKIND...became Corrupt.
* Earth ... became Corrupt.
* Gods INTENT...to Destroy Earths Corruption...Re-MAKE Earth holy.
* Gods INTENT...Re-MAKE the lower Heaven(S) holy.
* Gods OFFERING...Destroy Corrupt manKIND...Re-MAKE manKINDS Body, holy.
* On going process...The UNSEEN GOD...First Dealing with a Human Mans UNSEEN “inside”....living soul...spirit.
* Finale...YET to come to pass.
* Divisions of Human Men to be accomplish-ED
* Separations of Human Men to be accomplish-ED.
* Separations of Celestial Beings to be accomplish-ED
* New Heaven(S) to be accomplish-ED
* New Earth to be accomplish-ED

* Barrier Between the Old Heavens and Old Earth, Opened UP...
ONE Kingdom of God Serving New Heavens AND Earth.
ALL Occupants in complete Agreement Serving the Lord God Almighty.

True. Heaven was never designed for HUMAN man’s occupation/habitat.
HUMAN men will cease to exist.
HUMAN by definition IS a created being that IS subject to and must DIE.
Dead Humans, Raised Up in a NEW BODY, (no BLOOD) are no longer Human, or Subject to or Can Die.
Remember, the LIFE of a HUMAN man, IS his BLOOD.

Glory to God,
Supreme Power, Creator, Giver of Life, Taker of Life, Maker, Re-MAKER,

Taken

Not a scripture in sight, Taken......no scripture means it’s your opinion, and opinions are a dime a dozen on these forums.
I’m not saying that I disagree with some of what you have shared, but scriptural support would give weight to what you have posted, and give added material for us to examine.
It is a Bible study forum after all....

 

[Heart2Soul]

ok, but i guess you prolly wouldnt like my interpretation of that passage much either!
suffice it to say that that one likely does not mean what we first imagine either, as you might note by the first v, and the “if” that comes next; why would Paul say “if” there? “And having this confidence” is another—confidence in what? Prolly not what you first think, i bet

so while i dont know, i suggest that both v21 and v23 are being misinterpreted, at least, and the whole passage changes when read from a different perspective, ok? See, it can be easy to imagine that Paul is saying “i wish i was absent from the body, and present with the Lord” when Paul never said “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” anyway, and what he did do was cleverly write a passage so as to illuminate those who think that way

i suggest that it is more likely that Paul is saying something like “id rather be somewhere else communing with Yah, but ‘when in Rome’ is what i need to do for you guys right now”

I apologize, I see it now. And yes Paul is saying he would rather be home with Jesus...but he is the only one who benefits if he did that. So for the sake of those who need to hear the gospel it is best for all that he remain.

 

[marks]

“Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest”

(Paul Simon, “The Boxer”)

I've always liked that song.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

I've always liked that song.

Much love!

Me too.

After it’s revealed in the song that the man is a boxer - mankind is a boxer - I can viscerally feel the punches landing, time after time after time… Mankind delivers blows and receives blows. Where should a follower of Christ fall on that spectrum? At various stages in our Christian walk, we are found scattered across the spectrum, some more mature in the faith than others.

Simon brilliantly captures with that lyric a common tendency in man; one that we must be cognizant of and on guard against.

 

[marks]

Me too.

After it’s revealed in the song that the man is a boxer - mankind is a boxer - I can viscerally feel the punches landing, time after time after time… Mankind delivers blows and receives blows. Where should a follower of Christ fall on that spectrum? At various stages in our Christian walk, we are found scattered across the spectrum, some more mature in the faith than others.

Simon brilliantly captures with that lyric a common tendency in man; one that we must be cognizant of and on guard against.

Good analysis! The man is an incredible lyricist!

. . . and he carries of a reminder of every glove that's laid him down or cut him, til he cried out, in his anger and his shame, I am leaving, I am leaving, but the fighter still remains . . .

How to stop carrying those reminders, and stop being the fighter?

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

Good analysis! The man is an incredible lyricist!

. . . and he carries of a reminder of every glove that's laid him down or cut him, til he cried out, in his anger and his shame, I am leaving, I am leaving, but the fighter still remains . . .

How to stop carrying those reminders, and stop being the fighter?

Much love!

I think it can only happen by surrendering / conforming to Christ; become more and more like him every day.

The old man is tough, hardened by the years of boxing. He doesn’t go down easily, and he keeps getting up off the canvas when knocked down. But down he must go, and down he must stay.

Music is filled with theology. Some of it good, some of it bad, some of it ugly.

Words are spirit. Test the spirit.

When I listen to music, I hear theology.