If you found you were in the wrong faith, would you change?

[ScottA]

The Bible point blank states Jesus was resurrected a spirit 1 Pet 3:18 and Paul when talking about the anointed solidified that fact 1 Cor 15:44-50.

Right on.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus did not appear in his own body ever sir, in fact likely not the same body he did appear in, because every single time he appeared not one of his intimate associates recognized him. And if the sacrifice was taken back, which never happened in our history before, what hope do we have?

Best believe Jesus did in fact give his flesh and blood in our behalf, I certainly do.

Resurrection literally means to stand up sir. Biblical resurrection means the dead that are in the grave are brought back to life. Believe it or not Ron.

Now you are trying to decieve us, sir!

Resurrection is ana- stasis ana= again! stasis= stand. Resurrection is a standing up again ! And in this case it means one who died and rose from the dead!

Just like Lazarus - anastasis from his tomb. Just like over 500 saints anastasis from their tombs after Jesus rose!

Your first line is tired old vomit straight from Watchtower publications and has not one whit of biblical support!

Look carefully at the words of Jesus and believe Him for a change:

John 2:18-22
King James Version

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Jesus told the pharisees, destroy my body and in three days I will raise it (ana stasis) from the dead! What part of Jesus died at Calvary????

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I disagree Ron, here is the account:
(John 20:19-29) . . .9 When it was late that day, the first day of the week, and the doors were locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them: “May you have peace.” 20 After saying this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced at seeing the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again: “May you have peace. Just as the Father has sent me, I also am sending you.” 22 After saying this he blew on them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain those of anyone, they are retained.” 24 But Thomas, one of the Twelve, who was called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were telling him: “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will never believe it.” 26 Well, eight days later his disciples were again indoors, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and he stood in their midst and said: “May you have peace.” 27 Next he said to Thomas: “Put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop doubting but believe.” 28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me, have you believed? Happy are those who have not seen and yet believe.”

Jesus gave them what they needed to recognize him and strengthen them.

You r last comment is reading into Scriptures something not there.

And if Jesus did not physically rise from teh dead, why the deception. why not justr say my body did not rise, I am just manufacturing bodies as needed to prove to you I am alive.

they recognized Jesus- stopping adding to the scriptures!

Revelation 22:18
King James Version

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Your opinion is anywhere from 0-100% right. If it is wrong in a measure- you need to be very afraid!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Why? Because the Bible does not contradict sir, only misinterpretations cause it to seem so. Since Jesus body was sacrificed, and your verse says it would be resurrected what was meant by that? The Bible has to harmonize, or it would basically nullify God right? Who could put trust in a God that contradicts Himself?

Jesus said, if they destroyed His body- in three days He would raise His body from the grave! The Watchtower has lied to you with their slick reasonings taken from Arius of Alexandria over 1800 years ago!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus did not appear in his own body ever sir, in fact likely not the same body he did appear in, because every single time he appeared not one of his intimate associates recognized him. And if the sacrifice was taken back, which never happened in our history before, what hope do we have?

Best believe Jesus did in fact give his flesh and blood in our behalf, I certainly do.

Resurrection literally means to stand up sir. Biblical resurrection means the dead that are in the grave are brought back to life. Believe it or not Ron.

did you forget when Thomas met him and put his finger in the holes in his hand and the side of his chest?

did you forget he ate with many people after he rose

did you forget he was witnessed by many after he rose?

while some did not recognize him. If someone I knew died and rose again, I probably would not recognize him either. Who raises from the dead.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

If our angst is coming from the ❤ towards others, I doubt it will be very important what you believe at his second coming...............

 

[ScottA]

Now you are trying to decieve us, sir!

Resurrection is ana- stasis ana= again! stasis= stand. Resurrection is a standing up again ! And in this case it means one who died and rose from the dead!

Just like Lazarus - anastasis from his tomb. Just like over 500 saints anastasis from their tombs after Jesus rose!

Your first line is tired old vomit straight from Watchtower publications and has not one whit of biblical support!

Look carefully at the words of Jesus and believe Him for a change:

John 2:18-22
King James Version

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Jesus told the pharisees, destroy my body and in three days I will raise it (ana stasis) from the dead! What part of Jesus died at Calvary????

Ronald,

There is more here than meets the eye. Jesus did indeed rise from the dead after three days, but just as He said...it was a sign.

That sign was a foreshadowing of His ascension, which was Him going to the Father whom is Spirit--it was a spiritual event. But His resurrection from the dead was a mere demonstration of His having conquered death, that those who die in the flesh are not lost to the dust, but are raised up the last day. But again, that is not to say that they ascend to the Father or inherit the kingdom of God as flesh and blood, but rather that by the power of God in Christ they are raised and in that moment "changed"...which is to say, changed into the perfection and the glory of the Spirit, meaning God.

It was also a sign of the remaining 3.5 days, the end of the daily sacrifice: "Behold I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected." Luke 13:32

 

[Bob Carabbio]

If you found you were in the wrong faith, would you change?

That's a misuse of the word FAITH. A "denomination" isn't a "FAITH" it's just a religious group - just another "Theology" as it were. Personally, I've been in Several denominational groups over the last 59 years: Southern Baptist, American Baptist, Church of Christ (Campbellite), United Church of Christ, Several Independents, United Methodist, FGBMFI, and MOST of the time in the Assemblies of God.

My FAITH is that the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on Calvary has cleansed me of ALL SIN, and I stand PERFECT (in Jesus) before God, and that Jesus is my ADVOCATE in life.

What FAITH is Biblically is basically defined in three verses:
What is it? Heb 11:1
Where's it come from? Rom 10:17
How to you apply it? Mark 11:21-24

 

[quietthinker]

If you found you were in the wrong faith, would you change?
It's a tough call. I always believed shorts where better than long pants. May be I should invest in more shorts? It's possible to trust the weather forecaster that it'll get colder but being the shorts man that I am I'll no doubt end up with the wrong faith.....again.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I don’t think you’re being rude at all- in fact I totally acknowledge that your actions are motivated out of wanting to save me- the fear of my death. That’s very clear.

However, I believe that obedience to God should be done out of love, not fear. Obedience prompted by fear is product of an abusive relationship and bad fruit. Likewise with preaching and searching for truth: thaws should be motivated by love. Not death threats.

I fully agree Jane, and that is exactly the proper and only motive that we should have in serving God. People misunderstand the term of the Bible that we are to fear God, it is not fear in the literal sense, rather a reverential fear, a fear of letting Him down. Those who sincerely believe that God is, and becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking Him, obey Him because they love Him maam: (1 John 5:3) . . .this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome,

Many look at Jehovah as being unloving and vindictive, and Jesus as being quite the opposite, but Jesus stated openly that those who seen him, also seen his Father. If Jehovah would have came in the flesh, He would have behaved exactly the same way Jesus did, both are perfect sinless beings, any sinless being would be the reflection of Jehovah. So the only ones who need to fear as in afraid of God are those who refuse to seek Him, as their future is not quite so rosy.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Amen brother, the best book I have read by C.S. Lewis is Screwtape letters, I'm on my 3rd or 4th read of it now. Truly shows how Satan screws with us.
God be with you!

Thanks Nancy, I certainly hope so maam. Perhaps you are familiar that the world belongs to satan, and that Christians are no part of his world. I thought I might relay this to you as you might find it interesting. When the Bible speaks of satans world, it will be in one of 3 aspects. Primary among satan's ploys of course is religion, so religion is the primary one and is referred to as babylon the great in the Bible. satans religion usually plays in to the political system as well, and babylon harlots herself to them, so the political system is number 2, when God puts it into the kings hearts to destroy babylon, then the merchants of the world cry over the loss, so the third aspect is the commercial system. So any time the world is spoken of in the Bible it is referring to it in at least one of those categories. It can be fun if you remember that and then see which category the ploy satan is using falls into.

 

[Nancy]

Thanks Nancy, I certainly hope so maam. Perhaps you are familiar that the world belongs to satan, and that Christians are no part of his world. I thought I might relay this to you as you might find it interesting. When the Bible speaks of satans world, it will be in one of 3 aspects. Primary among satan's ploys of course is religion, so religion is the primary one and is referred to as babylon the great in the Bible. satans religion usually plays in to the political system as well, and babylon harlots herself to them, so the political system is number 2, when God puts it into the kings hearts to destroy babylon, then the merchants of the world cry over the loss, so the third aspect is the commercial system. So any time the world is spoken of in the Bible it is referring to it in at least one of those categories. It can be fun if you remember that and then see which category the ploy satan is using falls into.

You are welcome and yes, I am quite aware that Satan is the god of this world right now, but one day, Jesus will rip those keys from him and he will be tossed, for good this time, into the lake of fire prepared for him and his angels. All things will be taken care of, politics be damned far as I am concerned, they are puppets of Satan.
Satan was in the church at it's inception, he is there now and sometimes right up there on the pulpit. I am not ignorant of these things Robert but, thanks for the share. The black horse is a riding and a snorting and a whinnying away right now, IMHO!

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I fully agree Jane, and that is exactly the proper and only motive that we should have in serving God. People misunderstand the term of the Bible that we are to fear God, it is not fear in the literal sense, rather a reverential fear, a fear of letting Him down. Those who sincerely believe that God is, and becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking Him, obey Him because they love Him maam: (1 John 5:3) . . .this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome,

Many look at Jehovah as being unloving and vindictive, and Jesus as being quite the opposite, but Jesus stated openly that those who seen him, also seen his Father. If Jehovah would have came in the flesh, He would have behaved exactly the same way Jesus did, both are perfect sinless beings, any sinless being would be the reflection of Jehovah. So the only ones who need to fear as in afraid of God are those who refuse to seek Him, as their future is not quite so rosy.

I hear you say that.
And I’ve also heard you say death threats multiple times this thread alone.

Going back to the title question of this thread: if you found JW was the wrong faith, that the Watchtower twisted the Bible, would you be afraid?

(Non-hypothetical) Are you willing to see the love non-JW folks have for God?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yes...and a little insight about "all people" knowing "when he returns": As an event of God rather than of men and of the world, it is a spiritual event, meaning "each one in his own order" but more importantly, by the terms of God and therefore, timeless. Meaning that each one leaves in his own order--some raised "to everlasting life, some to everlasting contempt", but all arrive together...where "every eye shall see."

The each one in his own order is referring to the first resurrection Scott Rev 20:6, we believe this has already happened, but have no scriptural evidence to prove it as such. The parallel account in 1 Thes can be understood to fully happen upon Jesus' return, but we believe it is referring to the anointed who are still alive at that time.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yes, to reign with Christ for the preaching of the gospel to every nation until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.

They do have that responsibility sir, and when that is successfully completed Jehovah will send His forces Mat 24:14. But no that is not the primary reason, they were given the covenant to serve as Kings and Priests in the Kingdom of God sir: (Luke 22:28-30) . . .you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

(Luke 12:32) . . .“Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.

(Revelation 5:9, 10) . . .And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

(Revelation 14:3) . . .they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Now you are trying to decieve us, sir!

Resurrection is ana- stasis ana= again! stasis= stand. Resurrection is a standing up again ! And in this case it means one who died and rose from the dead!

Just like Lazarus - anastasis from his tomb. Just like over 500 saints anastasis from their tombs after Jesus rose!

Your first line is tired old vomit straight from Watchtower publications and has not one whit of biblical support!

Look carefully at the words of Jesus and believe Him for a change:

John 2:18-22
King James Version

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Jesus told the pharisees, destroy my body and in three days I will raise it (ana stasis) from the dead! What part of Jesus died at Calvary????

You have presented your evidence Scripturally, and I definitely see why you believe that way backed up by scripture.

I have presented Scriptural evidence as to why I believe Jesus was resurrected as a spirit being. We have concluded this topic, one of us is in error Ron. But it is not a critical topic as we both believe Jesus was resurrected which is an essential doctrine of the Christian faith.

So moving on to the next point. You said: 2. Only 144,000 can be born again when Jesus placed no such number.

You are correct, Jesus did not place that number, Jehovah did through the disciple John. Jesus called them a little flock (Luke 12:32) . . .“Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom. He said that he had sheep which was not of their fold: (John 10:16) . . .I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

The Bible has to be taken as a whole Ron, evidences of who they are are gradually revealed, but we can even see that in Jesus day they could be distinguished from the other sheep. Out of all of God's people in Jerusalem that night Jesus only made the covenant with his faithful 11: (Luke 22:28-30) . . .you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

The Bible went on to reveal these anointed ones of the covenant as called to be holy ones:
(1 Corinthians 1:2) . . .you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours. . . a letter from Paul written primarily to them but also to those of the other sheep as well, both flocks mentioned here.

They were called to be a holy nation: (1 Peter 2:9, 10) . . .But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies” of the One who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 For you were once not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not been shown mercy, but now you have received mercy. Referred to as the Israel of God: (Galatians 6:16) . . .for all those who walk orderly by this rule of conduct, peace and mercy be upon them, yes, upon the Israel of God. . .

John revealed the number of them and itemized them as tribes in Rev 7, and in chapter 5 gave the reason for their calling: (Revelation 5:9, 10) . . .And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
Those singing that new song number 144k and are purchased from the earth to reside in heaven with Jesus: (Revelation 14:1-3) . . .I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth.

No doubt this is foreign to you Ron, pray for understanding, everything necessary to show who they are and why is in these verses. Will take some thinking on it as I know you haven't been taught this way.

 

[Robert Gwin]

did you forget when Thomas met him and put his finger in the holes in his hand and the side of his chest?

did you forget he ate with many people after he rose

did you forget he was witnessed by many after he rose?

while some did not recognize him. If someone I knew died and rose again, I probably would not recognize him either. Who raises from the dead.

Jesus was not recognized by Thomas until he stuck his fingers in like you said, Jesus provided what he needed to convince him that he was Jesus. He was never recognized physically. And in the secondary account where Jesus showed the marks, he appeared both as a spirit being as indicated by the closed doors and physically. He was never recognized by physical looks. We openly admit that like every time a spirit being sent from God to humans, they take on physical bodies and eat like humans. Jesus was no exception for in fact they have to to interact with humans as spirit beings are not visible to us.

Jesus gave his flesh and blood in sacrifice, and I have no reason to believe that is not the case. His body was never found that is true, but obviously the bodies he appeared in were clearly not that one. I have no reason to believe that he even physically appeared in the same body twice as he was never recognized by appearance by his friends.

Physical bodies cannot go to heaven Grateful: (1 Corinthians 15:50) . . .flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom. . .Jesus was a spirit being prior to coming to earth, and was back to his original body that he had before he came. He only sacrificed his human flesh and blood in our behalf, not his heavenly identity, that would not have been a corresponding ransom sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

That's a misuse of the word FAITH. A "denomination" isn't a "FAITH" it's just a religious group - just another "Theology" as it were. Personally, I've been in Several denominational groups over the last 59 years: Southern Baptist, American Baptist, Church of Christ (Campbellite), United Church of Christ, Several Independents, United Methodist, FGBMFI, and MOST of the time in the Assemblies of God.

My FAITH is that the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on Calvary has cleansed me of ALL SIN, and I stand PERFECT (in Jesus) before God, and that Jesus is my ADVOCATE in life.

What FAITH is Biblically is basically defined in three verses:
What is it? Heb 11:1
Where's it come from? Rom 10:17
How to you apply it? Mark 11:21-24

Perhaps Bob, but most understand that their denomination is their faith, and many refer to in that way. The Bible teaches there is one faith at Eph 4:5 That is referring to one denomination that belongs to God. So yes faith is referring to a religious group, and is called many other things as well. Perhaps you have heard of the way Acts 9:2 or Christians Acts 11:26. So most of the time when I use the term faith I will be speaking about your denomination or your beliefs.

I appreciate your including especially Heb 11:1 where it is actually defined in it's primary meaning.

 

[ScottA]

The each one in his own order is referring to the first resurrection Scott Rev 20:6, we believe this has already happened, but have no scriptural evidence to prove it as such. The parallel account in 1 Thes can be understood to fully happen upon Jesus' return, but we believe it is referring to the anointed who are still alive at that time.

That is close...except for it already happening, for it has yet to happen with those who's order is yet to come. This order continues as it has since Pentecost until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled--which continues until the very last "one"..."each one in his own order."

 

[ScottA]

They do have that responsibility sir, and when that is successfully completed Jehovah will send His forces Mat 24:14. But no that is not the primary reason, they were given the covenant to serve as Kings and Priests in the Kingdom of God sir: (Luke 22:28-30) . . .you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

(Luke 12:32) . . .“Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.

(Revelation 5:9, 10) . . .And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

(Revelation 14:3) . . .they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth.

I answered here: Thy Kingdom come.