Hath God cast away his people

[Insight]

You are still not getting it. You do not seem to even know that they are beloved for the father's sake because of the sacrifice they made that salvation could come to the Gentiles.

That was extremely pleasing to God. God divorced Israel and her sister despite those faithful father's. Why? That entire nation was sacrificed that it might present the opportunity to one man of it to fulfill that Law and become the sole possessor of all its promises that those promises could also be shared with men of faith out of every nation of men.

The proverbs says that the wicked are a sacrifice for the righteous. (Proverbs 21:18) But even the fleshly heritage of those past faithful Israelites was sacrificed for the purpose of allowing Jesus to occupy the exact position he had to be in to extend life to the entire world. Galatians 3:16

That is something a natural Israelite or Jew ought to be very proud of instead of fighting against it.

The problem is that you do not know what you don't know. And that is quite normal. I am handing you the keys that came hard for me. If you want to think about them and make it easier on yourself than it was for me to learn these things then now is your opportunity. Many don't. Oh well.

They are beloved because of the sacrifice they made and now all nations are to emulate their example.

Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

None of this means we will cease to have the wonderful differences of the races which is like the variety of flowers. It means only that we become one in Christ and those fleshly pride filled heritages used as a boast by the carnal man are sacrificed for the sake of all. That is why Paul says there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ and so forth. You know this stuff full well. You have just failed to put it all together. Galatians 3:27-28

They would have to take themselves out of Christ to have that old heritage.

Is that what you want them to do?


Echoing right back at you what you said to me, "Or do you still wrestle with Paul."

Once again your quotations lack OT flavour. Are you a NT only believer?

Paul’s knowledge of OT scriptures surpasses both of us...but we press on entering the Word and not wresting it as per your previous post.

I thought you would have picked up on the OT echoes?

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; (Romans 11:16,17)

Rom 11:16NET
Rom 11:17NET
Rom 11:16NIV
Rom 11:17NIV

See how the other translations have correctly understood the OT principles?

Lump is mixed or kneaded, such as dough that which came from the firstfruits of the harvest.

The Greek text implies “a mixture”. Notice the NIV?

This clearly shows that Paul's figure is derived from the ordinances of the Law contained in Num. 15:19,20,21.

Pauls forefathers constituted the "loaf of the first of the dough" offered up to Yahweh, but the "rest of the dough" should have provided further loaves.

Unfortunately, many of the subsequent "loaves" were imperfectly baked (see Hos 7:4, 6, 8), though, as Paul shows, the mass of dough (the nation as a whole) is still considered "holy".

Is this not the most beautiful piece of Scriptures in all Romans 11?

Vengle, an observation over the past four pages of posts appears to show your reluctance to go along with Paul in his OT arguments. You are not surprised they are here seeing we are speaking about Natural Israel, yes the lump!

Enjoying the message.

Insight

 

[Vengle]

I will let you learn it your way (or, break yourself against it), whichever.

You clearly know it all. You remind me of who I used to be.

 

[Insight]

Here is the grafting of the “wild olive shoot” into the old stump to be able to now share the nourishing root of the olive tree.

(permission to post image granted)

A taste of what's to come.

 

[Insight]

I will let you learn it your way (or, break yourself against it), whichever.

You clearly know it all. You remind me of who I used to be.

No Vengle, only what is revealed to me in the Word. Its powerful you realise? Heb 4:12 and very sharp! I have enjoyed our sharpening immensely (Prov 27:17)

God Bless you in your walk.

Insight

 

[Insight]

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; (Romans 11:16,17)

This is not to mean the individual speaking of personal perfection but rather in a spiritual sense of being "separated" in service and dedication to Yahweh.

Israel was to be Holy (Deut 7:6) and in this He separated them from other nations (Deut 20:4). Like all of us they were to be Holy as Yahweh was "holy" (Lev 11:44).

It was always Gods intention that the descendants of Israel (the "lump") which came out of the patriarchs would also be separated and consecrated to Him. So, the offering of the part has consecrated the whole, and therefore the owner could partake of the blessing.

Hence Yahweh could enjoy the spiritual harvest of Israel that comes from the development of faith seen in the patriarchs.

The idea has a secondary application for us Vengle in that Paul used it in 1 Cor 15:22KJV, the Lord Jesus Christ became the "firstfruit" offering of righteousness because of his perfect obedience and willing sacrifice of his dedicated life.

This was evident in his resurrection to glory (Acts 2:24, 33).

We come "from him" which we appear to get; however your misunderstanding of natural Israel and Gods desire to make all the inhabitants of the earth Holy is what is lacking. Paul is giving you are ver broad vision of Israel but it appears you wish to take a narrow view here?

Like us natural Israel will be refined and purged until they acknowledge "the last Adam was made a quickening spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45KJV), for he brought "life and immortality to light" (2 Tim. 1:10KJV) by his holiness.

The true congregation ("lump") which is made from the "firstfruits" is described as "holy brethren" (1 Thess. 5:27KJV), being "partakers of the heavenly calling" (Heb. 3:1KJV).

They along with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will take part in the future Glory of the Kingdom age where they will purify the natural lump. Luke 13:28

See the work of Elijah Mal 4:6...turn the "hearts of Natural Israel "back" to their father's" - BTW can you see the root ***** Rom 4:16 ****** Paul has and he is speaking to it through all of Rom 11.

Even so come Lord Jesus.

 

[Vengle]

As I said, You are still not getting it. You do not seem to even know that they are beloved for the father's sake because of the sacrifice they made that salvation could come to the Gentiles.

Paul devoted the entire 11th chapter of Hebrews to showing the sacrifices made of the father's of our faith.

And that is where the preciousness dwells, in Christ through faith where there is neither Jew nor Greek.

Of Abraham Paul said: Hebrews 11:10 "For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

Of Sarah Paul said:Hebrews 11:11 "Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised."

Of Abraham Paul said: Hebrews 11:12 "Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable."

Summarizing that Paul said: Hebrews 11:13 "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

And then Paul goes on to speak of the faith of Isaac, Jacob. Joseph, and Moses, detailing their faith and the sacrifices they made.

Paul summarizes their faith: Hebrews 11:39 "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

Then Paul told who it benefited: Hebrews 12:1 "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."

This is what Paul meant at Romans 11:28.

And here we see it being fulfilled: Galatians 3:6 "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham."

Galatians 3:26 "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."


Oh, but you just go right ahead and speak for Paul Insight, instead of listening to him tell you what he means.

Connect all your scriptures out of your own wisdom and be proud that you see what you do. Convince others that you are intelligent and have them follow you.

Have your reward now. Why not.

 

[Insight]

As I said, You are still not getting it. You do not seem to even know that they are beloved for the father's sake because of the sacrifice they made that salvation could come to the Gentiles.

Paul devoted the entire 11th chapter of Hebrews to showing the sacrifices made of the father's of our faith.

And that is where the preciousness dwells, in Christ through faith where there is neither Jew nor Greek.

Of Abraham Paul said: Hebrews 11:10 "For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

Of Sarah Paul said:Hebrews 11:11 "Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised."

Of Abraham Paul said: Hebrews 11:12 "Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable."

Summarizing that Paul said: Hebrews 11:13 "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

And then Paul goes on to speak of the faith of Isaac, Jacob. Joseph, and Moses, detailing their faith and the sacrifices they made.

Paul summarizes their faith: Hebrews 11:39 "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

Then Paul told who it benefited: Hebrews 12:1 "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."

This is what Paul meant at Romans 11:28.

And here we see it being fulfilled: Galatians 3:6 "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham."

Galatians 3:26 "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."


Oh, but you just go right ahead and speak for Paul Insight, instead of listening to him tell you what he means.

Connect all your scriptures out of your own wisdom and be proud that you see what you do. Convince others that you are intelligent and have them follow you.

Have your reward now. Why not.

Vengle,

Please do not think ill of me for not dealing with your previous post. Hebrews 11 speaks to the root of the olive tree my friend...and that is your problem!

Your mind is centered on only one aspect of Rom 11 and blinded to the many other deep lessons hidden here.

Let me show you where Heb 11 is found in this verse.

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; (Romans 11:16,17)

Now the metaphor changes!

The picture is that of the tree whose fruit was used to supply the oil for the lampstands in the tabernacle and temple. The olive tree is a symbol for Israel (Hos. 14:6), and "the root" is a reference to the patriarchs from whom sprang the Israel tree (Isa 11:1).

The single most important aspect Pauls teaching here Vengle is that the tree which grows out of Israel was rooted and grounded in the faithful patriarchs, from whom they were to come to full national growth, as is the case with the richest stores of oil.

If you desire to know these matter please stay within Rom 11 and take us back to the OT to validate truth.

It’s the only way you will behold this wonderful vision.

Insight

 

[Insight]

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; (Romans 11:16,17)

The Root being holy and life giving through the promise for which Jesus Christ was raised up to confirm (Rom 15:8)

The logic here is rather obvious, if the root is good and healthy, so also must be the tree which comes from the roots.

The Lord Jesus identifies the "branches" as the faithful followers of his teaching: "I am the vine [or root of the tree], ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit; for without me ye can do nothing" (Jn 15:5).

We know some branches will be pruned, but that would be for the benefit of the tree as a whole, hence "if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (Jn 15: 6).

If you have ever pruned trees before you will know a wise husbandman would not destroy a good tree because some of the branches are faulty!

He prunes them back, and waits for others to shoot forth from the same root.

So what is Paul teaching?

Well clearly the figure is stating a guarantee of the restoration of Israel (as per Rom 11:23) because "they are beloved for the fathers' sakes" (Rom 11:28).

As the patriarchs were holy (i.e belonged to God in a special manner), as the "root" of His saving community among mankind, so are all Israelites who belong to the stock of the tree and are nourished by the sap which flows up to them from that root.

Ultimately, "all Israel" will be saved (as Paul states in Rom 11:26, having been nationally "pruned" through much suffering being put through the heat of Yahweh’s furnace all branches wounded will become responsive to the divine will (Zech 13:8, 9).

Insight

p.s I seek no glory or followers Vengle, only that we approach the inspired record with a degree of earnestness in understanding the very thoughts and intents of Paul’s heart as he was moved to utter such wonders.

 

[logabe]

The point I’m trying to make is… physical Israel was used to bring
salvation to the ethos (nations). That was the whole plan of God.
Hosea gives us the layout so we can look back and see the
purpose of God marrying physical Israel. God knew Israel was
going to rebel so; He used their rebellion as a positive rather than
a negative. So let’s get into the meat of what Paul and Hosea was
talking about. Genesis 32:12,

12 And Thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and
make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot
be numbered for multitude.

This was the promise of the birthright, given to Joseph (“God will
add”) and his son, Ephraim (“fruitfulness”). It was the promise of
Sonship—many sons into glory. Such a promise could be fulfilled
only partially, so long as Israel remained in the limited space of
the old land. So God used Israel's sin as an occasion to divorce
her and send her out of His house, NOT so that she would fall, but
so that she would be sown in the field and multiplied like grain in a
field. Paul says this in Romans 11:11.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should
fall? God forbid; but rather through their fall salvation
is come unto the nations, for to provoke them to
jealousy.

So while it is true that God did bring judgment upon the house of
Israel and scattered them as the name Jezreel implies, He did so
with the purpose of sowing them in the field (world) to multiply
them and fulfill the Abrahamic promise. Paul understood Hosea's
prophecy that God would again restore them. He understood the
underlying purpose of Israel's scattering. It was so that all nations
would be saved.

How? The simplest answer is found in the parable of Matthew
13:44, where Jesus tells us that God found a treasure (Israel—
Exodus 19:6) in the field (world). He then hid it in the field (Israel
was “lost” like Joseph in Egypt) until He had time to sell everything
He had (including giving up His life on the Cross) to raise the
money to buy the field (world).

His prime focus was to obtain the treasure (Israel); but in order to
obtain the treasure lawfully, He had to buy the field in which it was
hidden or buried. Thus, God purchased the entire world by His
blood. So Paul tells us that the casting out of Israel was for the
purpose of saving the whole world. God intended from the
beginning to buy the entire world. Hence, He used Israel's judgment
to fulfill two main purposes: to sow them in the field and multiply
them to fulfill the Abrahamic covenant with Israel; and secondly, to
purchase the whole world.

This is, therefore, good news for all men, whether of Israel or not.
God was being exclusive when He chose Israel as His wife; but His
overall purpose was inclusive. He is not only the God of Abraham,
but also the God of the whole earth (Isaiah 54:5). All creation has a
place in the plan of God and must come under His government.
Romans 8:21 says,

21 Because the creation itself also shall be delivered
from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty
of the Sons of God.


Logabe

 

[Vengle]

logabe, you have sound understanding of what those prophecies are saying but for the application you make of them to the fleshly Israel.

It is exactly as you say but aimed at the creation of the spiritual Israel of God which is absolutely, unequivocally, and unarguably the one in Christ as Paul describes at Galatians 3:25-29.

The root of the stump of Jesse is in the flesh Abraham. But Abraham pictures God as Isaac pictured Christ Jesus.

God the root produced the roots Son through Jesse the stump which was a stump for the reason that it was cut down as an unfruitful tree. And that cutting down was God's having divorced Israel's unfaithful sister as he had Israel.

It was the fleshly stump that God divorced and the Law of God says that fleshly stump cannot be remarried. But through that fleshly stump the true Israel of God by faith was allowed to grow out of the one seed Jesus as God's Son.

And by that the fleshly Abraham's seed has found its life just as all nations of men.

You guys are preaching a subtle deception by making it about the flesh.

What I find interesting about the picture is that as Abraham is the root of the flesh that divorcing shows Abraham himself to be ashamed of that wayward fleshly seed so that he divorced it as well as God.

Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation."

Matthew 3:9 "And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

And guess what? God did raise up children to Abraham from the stones.


.

 

[Vengle]

Why would God set this up in a way that takes such delicate observation to understand?

Because it works to show up man's humility or lack thereof.

That way the pride which dwells in the flesh is exposed that it may be destroyed.

Thank God he only dashes the vessel which refuses to empty itself of that pride and is willing to build it back up his way (not our way), fit for his works (not our works) any time it does reject that pride.

But most will not reject that pride. And the flesh with its pride is being destroyed. All of it. Every bit of it.

Matthew 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat"
________________________________________

Why does he then reveal it to some and not others?

It is not him that keeps it from anyone. He will bless those he finds humble and help them to see it but that does not mean he keeps it from those who do not see it. Their own pride does that.

Even the blindness of the Jews was their own pride. People take a statement that God blinded them and run with it without understanding, the same as they do with the subject (indeed the allegories as Paul describes it) being discussed here.

It can correctly be said that God has blinded them because he set things up in a way that they needed to be humble before they could understand. That is why Jesus spoke in parables and why at other places the scripture says clearly that they are blinded of their own stubborn pride.

Should those few meek ones that see this gloat because of it? No, they should be further humbled by it.

 

[Vengle]

No, I retract this statement in my post #131:

“Thank God he only dashes the vessel which refuses to empty itself of that pride and is willing to build it back up his way (not our way), fit for his works (not our works) any time it does reject that pride.”


God could definitely keep dashing and rebuilding the haughty until they surrendered, but to do that he would have to go against love's unforced choice. And that would set a bad example for all to follow. It would lead to our becoming self-righteous. For, God's loyal righteous ones are imitators of his love.

So then, one might ask, "Does that not mean that his dashing us at all is a violation of love?"

The answer is in what Hebrews 12:8 says, "But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

God does not dash the wicked but instead just lets them keep getting caught by the consequences of their own evil right up to the day they die or he dashes them for the purpose of destroying them completely. That is why we often see David in the Psalms speaking of the wicked as though they are the ones having unchecked success in their works.

Psalms 73:12 "Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches."

On the other hand, his meek ones desire that discipline. His meek ones are willing to endure that dashing so he does not dash them for the purpose of destroying them. And what he does is what they want him to do as they humbly desire to learn and be taught. And they want to be rid of the pride and things which prevent that.

 

[Prentis]

If we give God a small door to enter, he gives us a small portion... But if, tasting that the Lord is good, we desire it, not yet knowing that it will cost us loss, but being willing to suffer loss for it, he will then keep guiding us, giving us hints, until we understand and enter into his life.

We must 'make the door bigger', clear the way for the Lord, decrease, that he might increase!

 

[Insight]

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; (Romans 11:16,17)

Paul here foretells the result of divine judgment upon a Natural Israel who would reject the Messiahship of Christ, and the exile of AD70 fell upon the nation. No longer were the Jews able to worship in Jerusalem; nor was the divine overshadowing of the people provided to protect the nation from oppression.

But, more to the point, the atoning work of the Lord Jesus Christ removed the need for the continuous ritual of the Law, and the former work of the Jewish priesthood was rendered ineffective (Heb. 7:27).

Firstfuit: The forefather's and their faithfulness (natural and spiritual i.e like Paul Rom 11:1,2)
Lump: Natural Israel
Root : The Promises made to Abraham, Isaac & Jacob
Branches : Natural and Spiritual Israel
Wild Olive Tree: Gentiles being grafted among both the natural and spiritual Israel

Is everyone present?

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem and love the brotherhood!

Insight

 

[Vengle]

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; (Romans 11:16,17)

Paul here foretells the result of divine judgment upon a Natural Israel who would reject the Messiahship of Christ, and the exile of AD70 fell upon the nation. No longer were the Jews able to worship in Jerusalem; nor was the divine overshadowing of the people provided to protect the nation from oppression.

But, more to the point, the atoning work of the Lord Jesus Christ removed the need for the continuous ritual of the Law, and the former work of the Jewish priesthood was rendered ineffective (Heb. 7:27).

Firstfuit: The forefather's and their faithfulness (natural and spiritual i.e like Paul Rom 11:1,2)
Lump: Natural Israel
Root : The Promises made to Abraham, Isaac & Jacob
Branches : Natural and Spiritual Israel
Wild Olive Tree: Gentiles being grafted among both the natural and spiritual Israel

Is everyone present?

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem and love the brotherhood!

Insight

I almost agree with what you said here

As I told logabe, I am not speaking of a huge difference in what you understand the prophecies to be saying, but for the finite application of them. And your comment here is a good example of that.

You'll recall that in one of my earlier posts I spoke of how Paul said that (1 Corinthians 15:45) "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

The emphasis is on resurrecting the spirit of man. I do not see 1 Corinthians 15:44-45 as a statement of how our literal bodies will be, for even John said with regard to that aspect of it, (1 John 3:2) "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." And the only way to explain that seeming conflict that Paul should know and John not know is that Paul is not speaking about that.

What does it matter as to the exact detail of what we will be like? We know it will be perfect and not something we have to fret or worry about now as though it won't be.

So the concentration of the focus for now is on correcting the core cause of the problem which lay in man's spirit. Thus what we need is not something which will put a new skin over the top of the old problem, but something that is able to heal and recreate that spiritual core.

We do not have to worry about the flesh for it will have no choice in the matter, but our spirit is where our choices lay. That is why blasphemy against the holy spirit is a sin in our spirit.

Your list went as follows:

Firstfuit: The forefather's and their faithfulness (natural and spiritual i.e like Paul
Lump: Natural Israel
Root : The Promises made to Abraham, Isaac & Jacob
Branches : Natural and Spiritual Israel
Wild Olive Tree: Gentiles being grafted among both the natural and spiritual Israel

If it be that one understand the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man at Luke 16:16-31 then they know that what you said about the identity of the root is true from the physical perspective.

But because the focus is about recreation of man's fallen spirit (summed up as the carnal mind or flesh) we see a picture of old not simply being destroyed but being completely eaten up and consumed of the new.

That being a rather difficult concept for our minds to grasp, we tend to focus more readily on the fleshly physical aspects than we do at the spiritual way it comes about. And there is no saving power in the fleshly physical aspect. If we want to see the saving power we must look at the spiritual aspect.

And the spiritual root corresponding to Abraham is God. Abraham cannot save us, but only God can save us. That is why Jesus told those Pharisees not to presume that they had Abraham for a father as if that justified them or was saving them and made them right.

The promises are in God and His Son. Apart from God those promises mean nothing. So we need to see deeper than just Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and those promises to flesh. There is no life in that fleshly view. That is why we see no flesh in Paul's description of the true Israel of God at Galatians 3: 26-29.

About the only thing I can add to this for now is that what we see in Christ is the true Israel of God because what Israel was about was a picture of how God embraces and works with His people who have a special purpose as a royal nation of kings and priests that will be a part of the government over this earth in conjunction with Christ. That is why they are first fruits with Christ. And they are given dominion with Christ over that thousand years to subdue this earth. (1 Peter 2:9; Revelation 5: 9-10) And that subduing will involve the saving of yet others more numerous than themselves.

 

[Insight]

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; (Rom 11:16,17)

The Branches broken off occured because they (natural Israel not after the faith of Abraham Rom 4:12,13,14,15,16) failed to develop the divine qualities (Character and Mind) necessary to identify them as true, fruitful branches (See Mat 23:38 and compare with 2 Pet.1:8).

Of national Israel Jeremiah prophesied such a fate in Jer 11:16.

The Lord once called you ‘a green olive tree, beautiful with good fruit.’ But with the roar of a great tempest he will set fire to it, and its branches will be consumed.

Unbelieving Israelites will be removed to allow for the growth of more productive branches in their place: those who manifest the kind of faith which comes from the "root": See Mat 9:29; Mk. 11:22 & Jn. 8:39.

Jesus does not seperate what is of God and of Abraham!

“If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did"

Branches that do not produce fruit are cut off as merely retarding the tree and drawing from it nutriment to no profit; but even those branches that do produce fruit are pruned that better fruit might be developed. Thus there are revealed the ultimate benefits which accrue from trials: that the lasting qualities of true faith might be developed.

This work of pruning and regrowth will occur throughout the entire 1000 years reign when finally and completely the whole world we become "Israel" Rev 21:1,2,3.

Let all the people say "amen"

Insight

 

[Duckybill]

The Nation of Israel was TEMPORARILY set aside so that Gentiles could be saved. God resurrected the Nation of Israel to give them a new heart.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 (NKJV)
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

If God doesn't give, we don't get.

 

[Insight]

Vengle,

Thus far you have not acknowledge openly the context of natural Jewry in Rom 11, hence why we are still in Rom 11:16,17.

I do this not for your benefit alone, but for others here who may be JW's or such like who have despised Yahweh’s Israel for the upholding of unfounded Church dogma's.

We have seen in great detail the first fruit of the dough (lump) or the first cake from the lump (i.e Natural Israel) that it was in fact Holy and to this day in Yahweh’s eyes, a “set apart” people for His purpose and pleasure, to do with as He desires.

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou (Vengle) , being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; (Rom 11:16,17)

We now come to the Gentiles (us)! We are last mentioned for good reason that as Paul said Rom 15:27NET

It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

The Gentile believers unable to trace their ancestry through national Jewish stock, had been "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise" (Eph 2:12).

The olive tree was cultivated when good crops were desired however on the other hand, the wild olive tree was unfruitful, its fruit imperfect and worthless.

Before the Gentiles were invited to form part of the good olive, they were "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world" (Eph. 2:12).

Before such time we were unable to produce any fruits to the honour of the Creator, our works not being based upon understanding and faith.

We all wait for your (Vengle from Ohio) to acknowledge Rom 11:1,2, 7,10,11,12,16,17 so far speaks to Natural Israel both past, present and future.

 

[Insight]

The Nation of Israel was TEMPORARILY set aside so that Gentiles could be saved. God resurrected the Nation of Israel to give them a new heart.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 (NKJV)
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

If God doesn't give, we don't get.

Yes, we know Ducky...but Vengle believes Natural Israel is cast off, finished, forever gone and absolved of thier covenant agreement and its conditions.

In Vengles eyes Israel got away!

He calls its a sacrifice?

 

[Vengle]

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou (Vengle) , being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them,

I see what the problem is. I thought I saw signs of it before but I am certain now.

Your approach is one of pride, or you would not make sarcastic insinuations as you did there.

Your approach is steeped with the presence of being offended by the views of others which you cannot help but translate as being hatred toward Jews. And yes there is a bit of that hatred toward Jews by some in reality. But you are allowing it to infect you.

Don't worry, if God wants people to kiss your feet they will, if he doesn't, they won't.

I know you do not like that last statement. But don't you see that is the attitude you are taking?