Spotting Heretics

[Marymog]

Maybe you can start an honest investigation about this here:

Eusebius informs us that Ignatius was the third Bishop of Antioch, following Peter and Evodius, apparently the first Gentile to rise to this status. Ignatius’s episcopate, whose background and affinities were not Jewish, was a triumph for the Paulines. Insistence on unity and hierarchy, an Ignatian maxim, became characteristic of the emerging Pauline pro-to-orthodox strand. 6 Ignatius, free from Paul’s complex relationship with the “Pillars” and from any emotional attachment to Judaism, articulates a more overt and unequivocal negative tone toward the beliefs and traditions of the founding fathers.

The Anti-Jewish Strand in Ignatius​

You see, it's kind of apparent when you look into it that the church sank into corruption as gentiles took leadership positions, polluting and distancing the church from it's very Hebraic roots. They twisted and misunderstood Paul's teachings about the old vs. new covenant, even seemingly forgetting that Jesus himself was Jewish, lol! The Catholic church championed this move away from our Jewish heritage and have brought us to this point where everything "Jewish" about faith in God was corrupted or removed altogether and replaced with the pagan teachings and traditions of these new gentile leaders. The fact Ignatius, for example, existed so close to the time of the original Apostles is simply not a good argument for his beliefs being faithful and free from corruption. Him being a gentile presents the clearer argument for the opposite being true, as we can see in the quoted material I posted above.

So you trust Eusebius, a man who lived 200 years after the death of the last Apostle, and your men of the Protestant revolution, who lived 1,500 years after the death of the last Apostles, OVER a student of an Apostle? Hmmmm.....Even though the students of the Apostles agree with Jesus and Paul you still reject their teaching and accept your mens teachings? Fascinating....

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You both say the same thing about Catholics being illiterate but when the two of you disagree with each other are you not calling each other "really illiterate when it comes to the matter of Scripture"?

Keeping it real....Mary

We don't have to agree on everything in order to be scripturally literate.
The problem is Catholic theology is so far out in left field on so many things that it's impossible for us to consider Catholics scripturally literate, especially on the subject of justification, which in the end is what separates us from you. You believe that a man is justified (made righteous) by righteous works. We do not. We believe that a man is made righteous by faith without works, just as Abraham was. His works then being the sign of the righteousness he has received by faith, just as it was for Abraham. Paul explains this clearly in Romans 4. The Catholics defiled his teaching and turned Christianity into a works justification religion. And for the obvious reason of perpetuating the need for a paid, elite hierarchy to administer those works through the sacraments.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So you trust Eusebius, a man who lived 200 years after the death of the last Apostle, and your men of the Protestant revolution, who lived 1,500 years after the death of the last Apostles, OVER a student of an Apostle? Hmmmm.....Even though the students of the Apostles agree with Jesus and Paul you still reject their teaching and accept your mens teachings? Fascinating....

No, I trust the words of Jesus, and the original prophets and Apostles. THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE NOT GETTING!

The material I provided is for YOU. I don't need it. I already knew from the scriptures that anyone who teaches that spiritual life comes through the administration of carnal elements is a false teacher.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I would believe you, but I choose to believe Him. He TOLD you must eat His body. He equated His body to the bread (actual food, manna) that our ancestors ate. The unbelievers then (and now) asked how can this man give us his flesh to eat? He then SHOWED us how at the last supper when he equated bread to His body. Paul then re-affirmed what He said. You reject what Paul said. The students of the Apostles (the Apostolic Fathers) then re-affirmed what Jesus and Paul said.

Then you have to believe that you are also eating literal demons when you eat a sacrifice made to a false god. And yet Paul says that, in and of itself, it's okay to do that (even though he dissuades it).

I know you won't listen to scripture and will defer to your leaders. For I know that you are conditioned to believe your leadership over and above the scriptures. You are not allowed to be a Berean, even though the scriptures themselves say to be one. Why don't you take a walk on the wild side and look at Paul's teaching about meat sacrificed to idols with me so me and you together can see for ourselves from the scriptures that he is no way affirming that the elements of the Passover are the literal blood and body of Christ. Then you'll be smarter than your teachers and you can tell them to talk to the hand and you can find a real fellowship of scripturally based believers and find the real 'religion' that God wants you to have. And I don't mean 'religion' in regard to what church has the real truth and/or worship methodology. I mean 'religion' in regard to studying, and worshipping, and fellowshipping, and living for God how he really wants you to.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The men you follow, who were students of the men of the Reformation, reject what Paul and Jesus said. It's pretty simple Ferris...but you have no capacity to see even a shred of possibility that ALL of them were speaking literally. Why do you lack such faith?

You gotta get this straight. I follow Jesus, the Apostles and the Prophets. I do not follow men. I will listen to men who speak in accordance with Jesus, the Apostles and the Prophets. And it is only in that regard that I 'follow' someone. I have a Bible FIRST. Then I may or may not have a list of men who have proven to speak accurately according to the Bible I have. I know this is a completely alien concept to you because you are taught that you can not know the Bible without your Catholic leaders. Meanwhile, I can not know a true leader without the Bible! Big difference!

 

[RedFan]

We don't have to agree on everything in order to be scripturally literate.
The problem is Catholic theology is so far out in left field on so many things that it's impossible for us to consider Catholics scripturally literate, especially on the subject of justification, which in the end is what separates us from you. You believe that a man is justified (made righteous) by righteous works. We do not. We believe that a man is made righteous by faith without works, just as Abraham was. His works then being the sign of the righteousness he has received by faith, just as it was for Abraham. Paul explains this clearly in Romans 4. The Catholics defiled his teaching and turned Christianity into a works justification religion. And for the obvious reason of perpetuating the need for a paid, elite hierarchy to administer those works through the sacraments.

I may have been guilty of not paying close enough attention when I was taught in Catholic high school 50 years ago, but I honestly thought Catholic doctrine held that "works" (= things one does) wasn't the key to justification at all, nor even to sanctification (which, by the way, I was taught was a separate and no less essential prerequisite to salvation). The emphasis was more on avoidance of sin (= things one must not do) than on "works." Die in the "State of Grace," achievable by confession of sins and participation in other sacraments, and you're in. Die outside of the State of Grace (e.g., with unconfessed "mortal" sin), and you're out. If you die with just the "venial" sins unconfessed on your ledger, "works" can go a long way toward reducing your purgatorial sentence (or someone else's -- apparently, the credits were transferable), but that's about it for the benefit of "works."

Maybe I wasn't spending enough time with the Catechism . . .

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I may have been guilty of not paying close enough attention when I was taught in Catholic high school 50 years ago, but I honestly thought Catholic doctrine held that "works" (= things one does) wasn't the key to justification at all, nor even to sanctification (which, by the way, I was taught was a separate and no less essential prerequisite to salvation). The emphasis was more on avoidance of sin (= things one must not do) than on "works." Die in the "State of Grace," achievable by confession of sins and participation in other sacraments, and you're in. Die outside of the State of Grace (e.g., with unconfessed "mortal" sin), and you're out. If you die with just the "venial" sins unconfessed on your ledger, "works" can go a long way toward reducing your purgatorial sentence (or someone else's -- apparently, the credits were transferable), but that's about it for the benefit of "works."

Maybe I wasn't spending enough time with the Catechism . . .

It does seem you differ from Catholic teaching about justification. They understand James 2:24 to mean a man is MADE righteous by works along with his faith. Technically, it is a 'faith + works' religion.

Non-Catholics - many of them any way, lol - understand James to mean works SHOW the righteousness you have by faith, just as the context shows us that's what James means (James 2:18). 'Justified' means, both, to be MADE righteous, and to be SHOWN to be righteous. Paul's discourse is about being MADE righteous in the receiving of the righteousness that is from God (not from us) by faith without works, while James' discourse is about being SHOWN to have that righteousness as evidenced by your righteous deeds. This is the great chasm that separates Catholics from non-Catholics, and it's important that it exits.

 

[Marymog]

You gotta get this straight. I follow Jesus, the Apostles and the Prophets. I do not follow men. I will listen to men who speak in accordance with Jesus, the Apostles and the Prophets. And it is only in that regard that I 'follow' someone. I have a Bible FIRST. Then I may or may not have a list of men who have proven to speak accurately according to the Bible I have. I know this is a completely alien concept to you because you are taught that you can not know the Bible without your Catholic leaders. Meanwhile, I can not know a true leader without the Bible! Big difference!

No, you don't follow Jesus and the Apostles. If you did you would agree with Jesus when he said this (the bread) IS my body. Your answer to Paul's question would be YES Paul, eating the bread IS a participation in the body of Christ. You DO follow men that teach OPPOSITE of that but you do not follow the men (the Apostolic Fathers) that agree with Jesus and Paul!

But we could go on and on and round and round about all those passages. What have your men taught you in regards to the "give us this day our daily bread" passage? What bread was Jesus speaking of?

Keeping it real....Mary

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No, you don't follow Jesus and the Apostles. If you did you would agree with Jesus when he said this (the bread) IS my body. Your answer to Paul's question would be YES Paul, eating the bread IS a participation in the body of Christ. You DO follow men that teach OPPOSITE of that but you do not follow the men (the Apostolic Fathers) that agree with Jesus and Paul!

You didn't hear a word I said. But this is typical for people hardened in denominational teachings. The scriptures themselves show us Jesus did not mean the Passover observance here on earth is his literal body and blood. It seems you are literally incapable of seeing anything I presented right from the scriptures.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

But we could go on and on and round and round about all those passages. What have your men taught you in regards to the "give us this day our daily bread" passage? What bread was Jesus speaking of?

The bread by which we live is the word of God (Matthew 4:4).
You have Jesus by the word of God spoken to you by the Holy Spirit. The word dwelling in you by the Holy Spirit is how you have Jesus and are sustained to eternal life. Wine and bread count nothing toward that end.

 

[marks]

We are the body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:15-22 KJV
15) I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
16) The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17) For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
18) Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
19) What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
20) But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21) Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
22) Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

The communion of the body of Christ as we all partake together.

Much love!

 

[Marymog]

Then you have to believe that you are also eating literal demons when you eat a sacrifice made to a false god. And yet Paul says that, in and of itself, it's okay to do that (even though he dissuades it).

I know you won't listen to scripture and will defer to your leaders. For I know that you are conditioned to believe your leadership over and above the scriptures. You are not allowed to be a Berean, even though the scriptures themselves say to be one. Why don't you take a walk on the wild side and look at Paul's teaching about meat sacrificed to idols with me so me and you together can see for ourselves from the scriptures that he is no way affirming that the elements of the Passover are the literal blood and body of Christ. Then you'll be smarter than your teachers and you can tell them to talk to the hand and you can find a real fellowship of scripturally based believers and find the real 'religion' that God wants you to have. And I don't mean 'religion' in regard to what church has the real truth and/or worship methodology. I mean 'religion' in regard to studying, and worshipping, and fellowshipping, and living for God how he really wants you to.

The demons never said they were in the meat that was sacrificed to the false gods. Jesus said he was in the bread. So did Paul. Kapish?

In regard to your Berean theory: That is another lie your protestant men have told you; Be a Berean and confirm everything you are told with Scripture and if you disagree with what the person told you then you are more noble than everyone else (Acts 17:10-12). Here is what happened with the Berans: The Bereans read Scripture (the OT) to confirm what Paul was saying about Jesus was true; that He was The Saviour promised by God. Once they believed what Paul was telling them they then adhered to the teachings of the Apostles. They didn't reject what Paul told them about Jesus teachings AFTER they accepted Him as their Lord and Saviour. If they did reject Paul's teachings, then they would be in violation of Luke 10:16. They were more noble than those in Thessalonica because they accepted Jesus as the One promised to them by God. They then followed the teachings of the Apostles. What did Paul teach about bread/wine Ferris? The cup of blessing which we bless IS a participation in the body/blood of Christ and to treat it in an unworthy manner will bring judgment upon you.....THAT is what Paul taught the Bereans Ferris.

 

[Marymog]

No, I trust the words of Jesus, and the original prophets and Apostles. THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE NOT GETTING!

The material I provided is for YOU. I don't need it. I already knew from the scriptures that anyone who teaches that spiritual life comes through the administration of carnal elements is a false teacher.

Lol...you literally quoted a man (Eusebious) to back up what you have been taught but then say you only trust the words of Jesus and the Apostles?? Soooo do you trust what Eusebious said or not?

 

[Marymog]

We don't have to agree on everything in order to be scripturally literate.
The problem is Catholic theology is so far out in left field on so many things that it's impossible for us to consider Catholics scripturally literate, especially on the subject of justification, which in the end is what separates us from you. You believe that a man is justified (made righteous) by righteous works. We do not. We believe that a man is made righteous by faith without works, just as Abraham was. His works then being the sign of the righteousness he has received by faith, just as it was for Abraham. Paul explains this clearly in Romans 4. The Catholics defiled his teaching and turned Christianity into a works justification religion. And for the obvious reason of perpetuating the need for a paid, elite hierarchy to administer those works through the sacraments.

Cmon' Ferris. Think about what you are saying. Catholic theology is so far out in left field??? Do you agree with the theology of the Trinity? Or that Jesus claimed to be God and is? Do you agree that there are 27 books in the NT? If so, you agree with Catholic theology/teachings.....

 

[Marymog]

The bread by which we live is the word of God (Matthew 4:4).
You have Jesus by the word of God spoken to you by the Holy Spirit. The word dwelling in you by the Holy Spirit is how you have Jesus and are sustained to eternal life. Wine and bread count nothing toward that end.

Sooooo your men have turned "give us this day our daily bread" into we need to read the bible everyday? Is that what you are saying?

 

[Marymog]

It seems you are literally incapable of seeing anything I presented right from the scriptures.

Ditto....

 

[Ferris Bueller]

In regard to your Berean theory: That is another lie your protestant men have told you; Be a Berean and confirm everything you are told with Scripture and if you disagree with what the person told you then you are more noble than everyone else (Acts 17:10-12).

Wrong! Lol. That's not what Protestants say.
Let's make the adjustment necessary for what you said to be correctly aligned with Acts 17:11...

"Confirm everything you are told with scripture and if THE SCRIPTURES disagree with what the person told you..."

Do that and you will be displaying more noble character than some...like the Catholics who can't do that because they aren't allowed to and are to only rely on what their leaders tell them.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

your men have turned "give us this day our daily bread" into we need to read the bible everyday? Is that what you are saying?

What is it about the words of Jesus himself that you do not understand?

"Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God." Matthew 4:4​

Bread gives you physical life. While the word of God gives you spiritual life (John 3:6) - the spiritual life you have been told comes from eating a wafer and drinking some wine. But as we can see for ourselves (no cardinals, popes, or bishops needed) the scriptures say life comes from the word of God.

You have the word of God in you by faith, by the testimony of the Holy Spirit (1 John 5:10). Rituals and ceremonies and carnal elements do not have life in them and do not put the life giving word of God in you. Receiving the word of God by faith through the voice of the Holy Spirit does that.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Ditto....

It's just not there. Your Catholic theology can not be seen in scripture. It's an illusion that the Catholic church created between you and the Bible.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Lol...you literally quoted a man (Eusebious) to back up what you have been taught but then say you only trust the words of Jesus and the Apostles?? Soooo do you trust what Eusebious said or not?

Good grief, you'll stoop to anything to discredit what I say! You're not even getting the point, lol! The point is, Ignatius was a GENTILE. I have no reason to believe that was not true! Do you???

You are making a claim to authenticity on the basis of his close proximity to the time of the Apostles. I'm telling you that the fact that he was a gentile and not a Jew removes any claim that his teachings had to have been 100% those of the Apostles no matter what. The gentiles are the ones who changed and removed Christianity's Jewish underpinnings! (That's why we celebrate Christ the Passover Lamb on Easter instead of, well, on Passover, lol!) And you Catholics led the way into that heresy. You literally made it illegal to keep the law for any and all reasons (besides the obvious reason of trying to be justified by the law). You Catholics are the most horribly ignorant people there are when it comes to the things of the law and the old testament and we're still dealing with the fallout from that ignorance to this day even in our non-Catholic denominations. The Catholics RUINED Christianity!