The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

[Randy Kluth]

The Bible depicts the character of the kingdom that will be ushered in at Christ’s return to be eternally liberated from the curse (including sin, sickness, death, decay, corruption and all wickedness). It will be a perfect environment wherein dwells no vestige of the fall. The coming of the Lord will usher in the eternal state and witness the full manifestation of the glorified kingdom on a renewed earth in all its eternal perfection. This earth will be restored to its pristine condition – being eternally freed from all the bondage of corruption. Every enemy of God’s perfect righteous order will be finally eliminated with the fiery regeneration of this earth and the final and complete destruction of the wicked at His appearing. This is a fundamental belief within Amil and is shared with ancient Chiliasts. Premils oppose this important reality.

Also, the quote you attribute to Irenaeus (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter XXXV) was actually added by the historians, not him.

No, I didn't, if you're referring to the title of a section. I just copied the entire section, including both the title signifying the section and Irenaeus' words. Don't be ridiculous. I include in the quote the title of a section so that *you can find the section I'm referring to,* or so that you can see the summary of what follows from Irenaeus himself.

The title of the section indicates what Irenaeus then says, namely that he is getting his material directly from the Apocalypse of John as a source. Incidentally, what do you think Irenaeus meant by "the times of the Kingdom?"

And in the Apocalypse John saw this new [Jerusalem] descending upon the new earth. For after the times of the kingdom, he says, "I saw a great white throne, and Him who sat upon it, from whose face the earth fled away, and the heavens; and there was no more place for them." And he sets forth, too, the things connected with the general resurrection and the judgment, mentioning "the dead, great and small." ...
Of this Jerusalem the former one is an image-that Jerusalem of the former earth in which the righteous are disciplined beforehand for incorruption and prepared for salvation. And of this tabernacle Moses received the pattern in the mount; and nothing is capable of being allegorized, but all things are stedfast, and true, land substantial, having been made by God for righteous men's enjoyment. For as it is God truly who raises up man, so also does man truly rise from the dead, and not allegorically, as I have shown repeatedly. And as he rises actually, so also shall he be actually disciplined beforehand for incorruption, and shall go forwards and flourish in the times of the kingdom, in order that he may be capable of receiving the glory of the Father.

As I said before, the focus of the Early Church Fathers was not about speculating on the character of the Millennium, nor on the fate of the wicked. Our hope was to be placed squarely on the destiny of the righteous, which is a reward for our faithfulness at the present time.

Focusing on the destiny of the righteous is not a valid argument against the state of the world during the Millennium. That would be an argument from silence.

Perhaps the Chiliasts simply didn't know how to describe it, or felt they didn't have enough information to discuss it? At any rate, too much speculation could draw readers away from the more important points that would direct men to live in righteousness and to pursue a new earth as a reward for obedience.

 

[Lizbeth]

It may shock Premillennialists to know that the views they hold and promote today were sourced and spread in antiquity chiefly among heretics. When we look for the originators and formulators of modern-day Premillennialism we actually arrive at four shadowy early figures. The first two operated at the very infancy of early church history – Cerinthus of Asia Minor (50-100 AD) and Marcion of Sinope, Asia Minor (Born: 85 AD, Died: 160 AD). Both of these were viewed as arch-heretics and were strongly resisted by the early Church fathers for their corrupt perversion of Christianity. They invented a dual-covenant concept of two parallel yet coexisting peoples of God, under two different agreements, serving two different gods, with two different time-tables and two different ultimate outcomes. This was seasoned throughout with Gnostic elements.

The later advocates of ancient Premillennialism who ran with, and widely promoted, it were Porphyry [or Porphyrius] of Tyre (232- 305) and Apollinarius of Laodicea, Asia Minor (died 382). They took up the baton were Cerinthus and Marcion left off. Not surprisingly, these two unorthodox writers were condemned by the ancient orthodox fathers as heretics and blasphemers.

It is a sad indictment on Premillennialism that the genesis of the doctrine within Christendom can only be found in the ancient writings of these gross heretics.

What set these 4 men apart from the orthodox Chiliasts was obviously not their opinion of the idea of a future millennial earth, no, it was their elevation of the nation Israel in a future millennium, their two-peoples-of-God-theory (including a clear discontinuity between Israel and the Church), their advocacy for the renewal of all the old covenant feasts and festivals, a return of blood sin offerings in a future temple (whether real or memorial) and their support for the restarting of the old covenant priesthood on a future millennial earth.

While these are beliefs that are widely held within Premillennialist circles today, they were unknown to the early orthodox Church Chiliasts. Along with the reintroduction of all the bondage of corruption on a future earth (including sin, death and decay) and the rising up of Satan after 1000 to influence billions of millennial inhabitants against Christ and the glorified saints, this advocacy for the return of all the old covenant apparatus is probably the most unsavory aspect of modern Premillennialism.

Notably: none of the ancient Chiliasts supported the idea of Israel rising again to a place of racial superiority in a future millennial kingdom. They all looked upon the Church as fulfilment of true Israel today. They rejected any idea of God blessing any aspect of the redundant Jewish ceremonial arrangement. They strongly opposed any validity for, or efficacy in, any coexisting dual covenant theory.

They resisted any advancement of the fanciful idea of any type of reintroduction of the old abolished covenant system, including the rebuilding of the Jewish temple and the performing of multiple additional sin offerings to atone for the sins of man for a thousand years in the future. Such a thought was anathema to them. For the 1st 240 years after the cross there was no classic Dispensational or “Historic” Premil beliefs in the early Church. The new earth they envisioned was more akin to the Amil new earth - it was perfect and pristine. It was sin-free, sinners-free, Satan-free, corruption-free and death- free.

The early orthodox heretical apostates found the natural carnal sensual expectations of the Jewish millennial teaching attractive to their thinking. Prior to Cerinthus, and after him up until Victorinus in 270 AD, there are no orthodox Christian writings advocating the continuation of earthly carnal pleasures (including excessive gluttony and continued marriage, ongoing sexual passion and procreation) and materialistic prosperity after the resurrection. This thinking was thought to belong to the Gnostic camp. As Premillennialist Chris Gousmett even conceded: “This emphasis on material and fleshly delights was seen to be typical of ‘Jewish’ understandings of the prophetic promises, and thus a close connection between Gnosticism and Judaism was postulated” (Shall the Body Strive and not be Crowned? Unitary and Instrumentalist Anthropological Models as keys to Interpreting the Structure of Patristic Eschatology).

Neither the heretical Premillennialists or the early orthodox Chiliasts expected a future binding/unbinding of Satan or the uprising of Gog and Magog to surround Christ and the saints 1,000 years after the second coming. They all seem to have believed that Satan was taken out of the game on the actual day of Christ’s appearing.

It's very interesting that Premillennial Dispensationalism has given rise to the same ideas about Israel after the flesh today. Many Christians idolize Israel and all things Jewish, and even have fallen from grace into Law keeping....they're unfortunately ripe for what is coming.

Earthly Israel and the Temple might well turn out to be ground zero for the strong delusion (Satan deceiving the nations)....which 2 Thess 2 says will happen BEFORE the return of Christ. Those that are expecting a messiah to usher in a utopia on earth in it's present form are going to be vulnerable to the strong delusion. We're going to be very much tested by the counterfeit that comes on the scene before the real thing.

Haven't read the whole thread but another HUGE problem with Dispensationalism to me is that it has robbed the church of its power.....because of having lost the revelation that Christ is victoriously ruling & reigning now (all authority in heaven and earth has been given to Him) and that we the church are ruling & reigning with Him now, with His delegated authority. It seems to be a really big factor in why the church is in retreat and has lost the ground that it previously had taken in the west.....much of the church has essentially defaulted into sitting around waiting for Him to start ruling & reigning in a future age. It's a stronghold and deception in the minds of many.

I hope that people will ask the Lord for the truth and be willing to at least re-examine their beliefs and the scriptures about this. Revelation is a highly allegorical VISION that John was given, so we need Gods help to understand it. A literal understanding of Rev contradicts the teachings of scripture that came before it was given....which say that this world in its present form gets burned up and annihilated at the return of Christ. The lost get judged at this time...and believers receive heavenly bodies. There will be no unbelievers left to populate the world to come and believers certainly will not be procreating in the world to come because as Jesus said, in the resurrection we shall be like the angels.

 

[WPM]

I already have. Irenaeus identified John and the Apocalypse as the source of his Millennial belief. And the rebellion of humanity is in the same Apocalyptic account. The fact Irenaeus does not directly address the rebellion does not mean he doesn't believe in it. On the contrary, you would have to prove he *doesn't* believe in it.

So, can you prove that *any* of the Church Fathers didn't believe in John's account of the rebellion at the end of the Millennium? I'm referring to the Premillennial Church Fathers.

Ok then. I get it. You have nothing. Your claims all seem to be based on silence. If you had something you would doubtless present it.

 

[WPM]

As I said before, the focus of the Early Church Fathers was not about speculating on the character of the Millennium, nor on the fate of the wicked. Our hope was to be placed squarely on the destiny of the righteous, which is a reward for our faithfulness at the present time.

Focusing on the destiny of the righteous is not a valid argument against the state of the world during the Millennium. That would be an argument from silence.

Perhaps the Chiliasts simply didn't know how to describe it, or felt they didn't have enough information to discuss it? At any rate, too much speculation could draw readers away from the more important points that would direct men to live in righteousness and to pursue a new earth as a reward for obedience.

Your thesis is mistaken.

• The early Chiliasts were fully aware of "the character of the Millennium." They foreseen a perfect incorrupt age to come that was free of sin and sinners, hatred and rebellion, crying and dying, hospitals and funerals, war and terror, Satan and his minions. You need to do more detailed research.
• The early Chiliasts were fully aware of "the fate of the wicked" when Jesus comes. They taught they were destroyed when Jesus comes. You need to study this in their writing.

You or no Premil can prove otherwise. The burden of proof is with you: He who alleges must prove! You are so selective in your quotes. You try to portray the opposite picture to what actually existed in the early Church.

The primitive Chiliasts believed that the millennial earth ushered in at the appearing of Christ would be fully regenerated and be perfect and pristine. It would be purged of all the result of the Fall. The wicked and all wickedness, the devil and his demons, would be prohibited from it. This is the opposite to the Premil age which is sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted. In the end it is overrun by Satan and the wicked.

Irenaeus is crystal clear in his idea of the age to come. To him it is totally purged of all the ugliness of the bondage of corruption. There would therefore be no more death or decay. The wicked and all wickedness were expected to be excluded from it.

John, therefore, did distinctly foresee the first “resurrection of the just,” and the inheritance in the kingdom of the earth; and what the prophets have prophesied concerning it harmonize [with his vision]. For the Lord also taught these things, when He promised that He would have the mixed cup new with His disciples in the kingdom. The apostle, too, has confessed that the creation shall be free from the bondage of corruption, [so as to pass] into the liberty of the sons of God. And in all these things, and by them all, the same God the Father is manifested, who fashioned man, and gave promise of the inheritance of the earth to the fathers, who brought it (the creature) forth [from bondage] at the resurrection of the just, and fulfils the promises for the kingdom of His Son (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 36:3).​

He elsewhere taught:

In the end of time He shall come to do away with all evil, and to reconcile all things, in order that there may be an end of all impurities (Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus, XXXIX).​

Irenaeus considers the second coming as the end of time, when Jesus shall do away with all evil and reconcile all things unto Himself.

Irenaeus sums up Paul’s teaching about the next age in Against Heresies Book III, Chapter VII, 1:

The unbelievers of this world … shall not inherit the future age of incorruption.​

Irenaeus looks upon Christ’s appearing as the end of this corrupt arrangement and all rebellion. The new world belongs to the righteous and is incorrupt.

Elsewhere he states:

For then there shall in truth be a common joy consummated to all those who believe unto life, and in each individual shall be confirmed the mystery of the Resurrection, and the hope of incorruption, and the commencement of the eternal kingdom, when God shall have destroyed death and the devil. For that human nature and flesh which has risen again from the dead shall die no more; but after it had been changed to incorruption, and made like to spirit, when the heaven was opened, [our Lord] full of glory offered it (the flesh) to the Father (Fragment L).​

Irenaeus saw the removal of corruption and the intro of incorruption as occurring at the coming of Christ. He views a future millennial kingdom as the start of incorruption. He backs this up by demonstrating that death and the devil are destroyed at this climactic event.

Irenaeus enlarges:

The predicted blessing, therefore, belongs unquestionably to the times of the kingdom, when the righteous shall bear rule upon their rising from the dead; when also the creation, having been renovated and set free, shall fructify with an abundance of all kinds of food, from the dew of heaven, and from the fertility of the earth: as the elders who saw John, the disciple of the Lord, related that they had heard from him how the Lord used to teach in regard to these times, and say: “The days will come, in which vines shall grow, each having ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true twig ten thousand shoots, and in each one of the shoots ten thousand dusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five and twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster, another shall cry out, I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me. In like manner [the Lord declared] that ... all animals feeding [only] on the productions of the earth, should [in those days] become peaceful and harmonious among each other, and be in perfect subjection to man (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 33:3).​

Here, Irenaeus quotes Papias. But we can see that this earth imagined wasn’t one that contained wickedness and the wicked, but perfection and fruitfulness. Irenaeus believes “creation” will be “renovated and set free” at the resurrection of the just, whereupon the glorified righteous will then reign over the perfected earth that “shall fructify with an abundance of all kinds of food, from the dew of heaven, and from the fertility of the earth.” He backs his belief up with a quote from Papias.

Like Amillennialists, he believed the curse will be eliminated at Christ’s Coming. Note, he teaches that "the righteous" who enter the regenerated earth are the glorified saints "rising from the dead."

Irenaeus millennium is completely different to that envisioned by modern-day Premillennialists. Whilst he believed in a millennial period after the coming of Christ he saw a perfect incorruptible transitionary period that would simply be porch-way for the redeemed (alone) into the eternal state. This would be a time totally free of the wicked, wickedness and corruption: “the righteous shall bear rule upon their rising from the dead; when also the creation, having been renovated and set free.” He enlarges:

That the whole creation shall, according to God’s will, obtain a vast increase, that it may bring forth and sustain fruits such [as we have mentioned], Isaiah declares: “And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every prominent hill, water running everywhere in that day, when many shall perish, when walls shall fall. And the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, seven times that of the day, when He shall heal the anguish of His people, and do away with the pain of His stroke.” Now “the pain of the stroke” means that inflicted at the beginning upon disobedient man in Adam, that is, death; which [stroke] the Lord will heal when He raises us from the dead, and restores the inheritance of the fathers (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 34:2).​

Irenaeus does not see any more death after the second coming. With the glorification of believers and their population of the millennial earth, death is terminated. He continues:

Isaiah has declared the time when these events shall occur; he says: “And I said, Lord, how long? Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses be without men, and the earth be left a desert. And after these things the Lord shall remove us men far away (longe nos faciet Deus homines), and those who shall remain shall multiply upon the earth.” Then Daniel also says this very thing: “And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of those under the heaven, is given to the saints of the Most High God, whose kingdom is everlasting, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.” And lest the promise named should be understood as referring to this time, it was declared to the prophet: “And come thou, and stand in thy lot at the consummation of the days.”​

The writer is speaking of the desolation of this earth and the destruction of the wicked. Irenaeus does not entertain the idea of the wicked surviving Christ’s appearing, never mind being worthy for the new earth. The result of the conflagration that occurs at Christ’s return is that “the cities … [are] wasted without inhabitant.” The elect are shown to be rescued from this destruction and are “those who shall remain to “multiply [or enlarge] upon the earth.” This whole portrayal is decidedly climactic. The early Chiliast millennium was simply a perfect porchway into the eternal state.

 

[WPM]

As I said before, the focus of the Early Church Fathers was not about speculating on the character of the Millennium, nor on the fate of the wicked. Our hope was to be placed squarely on the destiny of the righteous, which is a reward for our faithfulness at the present time.

Focusing on the destiny of the righteous is not a valid argument against the state of the world during the Millennium. That would be an argument from silence.

Perhaps the Chiliasts simply didn't know how to describe it, or felt they didn't have enough information to discuss it? At any rate, too much speculation could draw readers away from the more important points that would direct men to live in righteousness and to pursue a new earth as a reward for obedience.

Irenaeus:

It is necessary to tell them respecting those things, that it behoves the righteous first to receive the promise of the inheritance which God promised to the fathers, and to reign in it, when they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated, and that the judgment should take place afterwards. For it is just that in that very creation in which they toiled or were afflicted, being proved in every way by suffering, they should receive the reward of their suffering; and that in the creation in which they were slain because of their love to God, in that they should be revived again; and that in the creation in which they endured servitude, in that they should reign. For God is rich in all things, and all things are His. It is fitting, therefore, that the creation itself, being restored to its primeval condition, should without restraint be under the dominion of the righteous; and the apostle has made this plain in the Epistle to the Romans, when he thus speaks: “For the expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature has been subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope; since the creature itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God” (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 32:1).​

Irenaeus testifies to the curse being lifted in a future millennium. The earth, in his opinion, will be returned to its pre-fall state. This coincides with the glorification of the just. For him: “the pain of the stroke” … the Lord will heal when He raises us from the dead, and restores the inheritance of the fathers.” He contends: “the [earthly] kingdom … is the commencement of incorruption.” Speaking of the “the resurrection of the just” he submits: “they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated.” The earth, the writer anticipates, is only for the righteous. He affirms: “It is fitting, therefore, that the creation itself, being restored to its primeval condition, should without restraint be under the dominion of the righteous.” There is no allowance, as modern-day Premillennialism argues, for the curse, the wicked wickedness, or Satan to blight the new earth. This thousand-year era is depicted as the Sabbath reign of Christ and the righteous.

Irenaeus also advocated that it is fitting that the resurrected saints would reign in the same world where they had labored and suffered bodily. Where they once endured pain and bondage, they would enjoy freedom and authority. Man and creation are portrayed as being in perfect sync. The one notable aspect of early Chiliasm, which distinguishes it from modern Premillennialism, is its view of a future millennial earth. The early Chiliasts expected a perfect regenerated earth free of sin, sinners, Satan and the curse. Modern-day Premillennialism locates all of this on its future millennial earth.

This would be a it was only just that they be raised bodily and given rewards in the same world in which they had suffered. , on this A theme first expressed most explicitly and most forcefully by Irenaeus was that since the saints

Irenaeus states:

The Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man (Antichrist ) and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that “many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 32:1).​

The picture being portrayed here is that of a perfect environment consisting perfected beings being at total rest. This is a picture of millennial bliss.

Irenaeus adds:

These are [to take place] in the times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, which has been sanctified, in which God rested from all the works which He created, which is the true Sabbath of the righteous, which they shall not be engaged in any earthly occupation; but shall have a table at hand prepared for them by God, supplying them with all sorts of dishes. (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 33:2).​

The millennial earth is depicted as heaven on earth. It is devoid of any form of corruption or rebellion. There is no allowance made for the wicked. It is the abode of the righteous alone who are depicted as enjoying the bliss and rest of paradise before the fall.

Irenaeus elaborates on the early Chiliast expectation in a future millennium:

For as it is God truly who raises up man, so also does man truly rise from the dead, and not allegorically … and shall go forwards and flourish in the times of the kingdom, in order that he may be capable of receiving the glory of the Father (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 35:2).​

Tertullian:

Previous to Christ’s coming, our prayers are directed towards the end of this world, to the passing away thereof at the great day of the Lord— of His wrath and vengeance— the last day, which is hidden (from all), and known to none but the Father, although announced beforehand by signs and wonders, and the dissolution of the elements, and the conflicts of nations (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter XXII).

What a spectacle is that fast-approaching advent of our Lord, now owned by all, now highly exalted, now a triumphant One! What that exultation of the angelic hosts! What the glory of the rising saints! What the kingdom of the just thereafter! What the city New Jerusalem! Yes, and there are other sights: that last day of judgment, with its everlasting issues; that day unlooked for by the nations, the theme of their derision, when the world hoary with age, and all its many products, shall be consumed in one great flame! (De Spectaculis, Chapter XXX).​

Tertullian locates the second coming at “the last day” – which is “the end of this world, to the passing away thereof at the great day of the Lord the day.” This is the day of Christ’s “wrath and vengeance.” It is an approaching day that “is hidden (from all), and known to none but the Father, although announced beforehand by signs and wonders, and the dissolution of the elements, and the conflicts of nations.”

Where exactly are the saints said to be during the Chiliast millennium? Tertullian locates them in the New Jerusalem in Against Marcion Book III, Chapter XXV. This is believed to descend upon the millennial earth:

We do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, let down from heaven … We say that this city has been provided by God for receiving the saints on their resurrection, and refreshing them with the abundance of all really spiritual blessings, as a recompense for those which in the world we have either despised or lost; since it is both just and God-worthy that His servants should have their joy in the place where they have also suffered affliction for His name’s sake. ​

Tertullian tells us that “the saints on their resurrection” will possess “the divinely-built city of Jerusalem” which is said to be “let down from heaven” unto “the earth” at Christ’s Coming, “only in another state of existence.” The writer then suggests that the redeemed that are alive when Jesus comes experience “a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints.” Tertullian describes our current corrupt bodies as “the garment of the flesh” which must (of necessity) be “put off” at the Second Coming.

Like Irenaeus, Tertullian seems to see the return of man to this current earth in its perfected form in his new glorified body as a sign of ultimate victory over sin. The redeemed are therefore suitably rewarded for their sufferings in this life. Where they suffered loss, they now experience gain. Where they suffered “affliction” they now experience “joy.” This anticipated millennial earth is represented as a vindication of the saints.

Hippolytus briefly states:

The righteous shall obtain the incorruptible and unfading kingdom, who indeed are at present detained in Hades (Fragments of Hippolytus 1).​

He does not seem to go into detail on the matter of discipline in a future millennial kingdom. Like his view on Hades for the dead in Christ, he seems to anticipate a state and an age that is full of rewards for the righteous and full of rest.

 

[WPM]

There is no merit to that kind of response. Who is forcing opinion upon the ECF's--you or me? We already know that we're talking about Church Fathers who were Premil. Justin was Premill. Consequently, it is more likely that his view of the consummation was both progressive and climatic--not strictly legal, as you claim.



Well yes, we all believe the consummation is on the last day of the age, at the resurrection of the just.

Yes, as I said, the consummation has a climax at the end of the age.​

I have no idea what you think all of these quotes prove, in reference to your claim that the Church Fathers who were Chiliast denied a continuation of the world after the consummation. Obviously, we all agree there will be a consuming judgment at the 2nd Coming. It's called "Armageddon." The question is: when this is described as apocalyptic and universal, does this necessarily mean it is the same as earth's atomization or complete destruction? I don't think so, since Chiliasts believed that the world continues for another thousand years.

We also would agree that Christ won a *legal victory* at the cross, in which Satan completely lost authority to condemn the human race when they put their trust in Christ's atoning sacrifice. Death has no more claim on us, even though our mortal bodies will still have to die.

Ok.

1. So you now accept that the second coming is the consummation. Great! That is what we Amils have argued for years, and which you have challenged.
2. You now believe Satan was bound at the First Advent. Great! That is what we Amils have argued for years, and which you have challenged.

 

[WPM]

As I said before, the focus of the Early Church Fathers was not about speculating on the character of the Millennium, nor on the fate of the wicked. Our hope was to be placed squarely on the destiny of the righteous, which is a reward for our faithfulness at the present time.

Focusing on the destiny of the righteous is not a valid argument against the state of the world during the Millennium. That would be an argument from silence.

Perhaps the Chiliasts simply didn't know how to describe it, or felt they didn't have enough information to discuss it? At any rate, too much speculation could draw readers away from the more important points that would direct men to live in righteousness and to pursue a new earth as a reward for obedience.

The early Chiliasts did not believe mortals (in general) and the wicked (in particular) survive the return of Christ and populate a future millennium. Only the resurrected redeemed inherited a future millennium. What is more, they had to be glorified to inherit a new glorified earth. This was the termination of corruption. In early millennialism, there are no wicked left to enter a supposed future millennium. The early Chiliasts all anticipated a general resurrection/judgment when Jesus comes. They held that this would be the place of eternal separation. Irenaeus supports his expectation in an early statement of faith, arguing that the Church believes in:

His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father to gather all things in one, and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send spiritual wickednesses, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory (Against Heresies Book 1, Chapter 10:1).​

Here is a general judgment outlined that eternally divides mankind in two. The wicked are banished to hell forever, the resurrected elect alone inherit a future millennial earth. Irenaeus portrays a future millennial kingdom as the inheritance of the redeemed alone. It is here that God’s people enjoy close fellowship with Christ in an environment completely purged of “the bondage of corruption.” He states:

John, therefore, did distinctly foresee the first “resurrection of the just,” and the inheritance in the kingdom of the earth; and what the prophets have prophesied concerning it harmonize [with his vision]. For the Lord also taught these things, when He promised that He would have the mixed cup new with His disciples in the kingdom. The apostle, too, has confessed that the creation shall be free from the bondage of corruption, [so as to pass] into the liberty of the sons of God. And in all these things, and by them all, the same God the Father is manifested, who fashioned man, and gave promise of the inheritance of the earth to the fathers, who brought it (the creature) forth [from bondage] at the resurrection of the just, and fulfils the promises for the kingdom of His Son (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 36:3).​

He submits:

When in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 29:1).

And then the doctrine concerning the resurrection of bodies which we believe, will emerge true and certain [from their system]; since, [as we hold,] God, when He resuscitates our mortal bodies which preserved righteousness, will render them incorruptible and immortal. For God is superior to nature, and has in Himself the disposition [to show kindness], because He is good; and the ability to do so, because He is mighty; and the faculty of fully carrying out His purpose, because He is rich and perfect (Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapter 29:2).

He promised to drink of the fruit of the vine with His disciples, thus indicating both these points: the inheritance of the earth in which the new fruit of the vine is drunk, and the resurrection of His disciples in the flesh. For the new flesh which rises again is the same which also received the new cup (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 33:1).​

Justin held:

If any one be labouring under a defect of body, yet be an observer of the doctrines delivered by Him, He shall raise him up at His second advent perfectly sound, after He has made him immortal, and incorruptible, and free from grief (Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 69).​

Tertullian addresses the second coming, and particularly the glorification of the redeemed:

For the apostle makes a distinction, when he goes on to say, “For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven, if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked;” which means, before we put off the garment of the flesh, we wish to be clothed with the celestial glory of immortality. Now the privilege of this favour awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints; as he writes to the Thessalonians: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we too shall ourselves be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” … he who has already traversed Hades is destined also to obtain the change after the resurrection. For from this circumstance it is that we definitively declare that the flesh will by all means rise again, and, from the change that is to come over it, will assume the condition of angels (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, 41).​

 

[WPM]

As I said before, the focus of the Early Church Fathers was not about speculating on the character of the Millennium, nor on the fate of the wicked. Our hope was to be placed squarely on the destiny of the righteous, which is a reward for our faithfulness at the present time.

Focusing on the destiny of the righteous is not a valid argument against the state of the world during the Millennium. That would be an argument from silence.

Tertullian then employs 1 Corinthians 15 to support his thesis:

It is the transformation these shall undergo which he explains to the Corinthians, when he writes: “We shall all indeed rise again (though we shall not all undergo the transformation) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump” - for none shall experience this change but those only who shall be found in the flesh. “And the dead,” he says, “shall be raised, and we shall be changed.” Now, after a careful consideration of this appointed order, you will be able to adjust what follows to the preceding sense. For when he adds, “This corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality,” this will assuredly be that house from heaven, with which we so earnestly desire to be clothed upon, whilst groaning in this our present body,-meaning, of course, over this flesh in which we shall be surprised at last; because he says that we are burdened whilst in this tabernacle, which we do not wish indeed to be stripped of, but rather to be in it clothed over, in such a way that mortality may be swallowed up of life, that is, by putting on over us whilst we are transformed that vestiture which is from heaven (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, 42).​

Tertullian envisions the dead and alive in Christ being instantly glorified at Christ’s coming. In his writing On the Resurrection of the Flesh (Chapter XLI), he argues believers would be perfected by being “clothed with the celestial glory of immortality.” The millennial bodies, the writer foresees, clearly seem to be immortal. They are described as perfect glorified bodies. They are later described as “a better house through the resurrection.”

Hippolytus:

And the unrighteous, and those who believed not God, who have honoured as God the vain works of the hands of men, idols fashioned (by themselves), shall be sentenced to this endless punishment. But the righteous shall obtain the incorruptible and unfading kingdom (Fragments of Hippolytus 1).​

Methodius argued:

For in the new and indissoluble creation, whoever shall not be found decorated with the boughs of chastity, shall neither obtain rest, because he has not fulfilled the command of God according to the law, nor shall he enter into the land of promise, because he has not previously celebrated the Feast of Tabernacles. For they only who have celebrated the Feast of Tabernacles come to the Holy Land, setting out from those dwellings which are called tabernacles, until they come to enter into the temple and city of God, advancing to a greater and more glorious joy, as the Jewish types indicate. For like as the Israelites, having left the borders of Egypt, first came to the Tabernacles, and from hence, having again set forth, came into the land of promise, so also do we. For I also, taking my journey, and going forth from the Egypt of this life, came first to the resurrection, which is the true Feast of the Tabernacles, and there having set up my tabernacle, adorned with the fruits of virtue, on the first day of the resurrection, which is the day of judgment, celebrate with Christ the millennium of rest, which is called the seventh day, even the true Sabbath. Then again from thence I, a follower of Jesus, "who hath entered into the heavens," as they also, after the rest of the Feast of Tabernacles, came into the land of promise, come into the heavens, not continuing to remain in tabernacles--that is, my body not remaining as it was before (Discourse IX – Tusiane, 5).​

 

[CadyandZoe]

It may shock Premillennialists to know that the views they hold and promote today were sourced and spread in antiquity chiefly among heretics.

Define: Ad hominem

adjective

1. (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

 

[Taken]

The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.
OP ^

Blue Ribbon Award for one of the most Comical Thread Titles.

Congrats OP, @Paul Malcomson

 

[WPM]

Define: Ad hominem

adjective

1. (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

Exactly! I agree! There is a big difference between challenging the views (or the origin of the views) of someone and attacking their character.

 

[WPM]

The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.
OP ^

Blue Ribbon Award for one of the most Comical Thread Titles.

Congrats OP, @Paul Malcomson

Facts are stubborn things! You obviously have no rebuttal.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Exactly! I agree! There is a big difference between challenging the views (or the origin of the views) of someone and attacking their character.

You were NOT challenging anyone's Premillennial doctrine.

 

[Taken]

Facts are stubborn things! You obviously have no rebuttal.

Find your OP comical.
Men taught ORALLY, for centuries to men who could not READ.
Men who taught ORALLY, were discovered FAULTY, after men broadly learned to READ and broadly had Scripture Available to READ.

Men who taught ORALLY, conveniently are the SAME, WHO Accuse men of Heresy....Are primarily the SAME men whose Historical Oral Teaching was Faulty.

It’s a rouse. Blaming men who go to the WITTEN SOURCE of Scripture, instead of depending on FAULTY Oral teaching...AS IF...that is worthy of an intended derogatory accusation.
Laughable on it’s face.

 

[Timtofly]

Irenaeus:

It is necessary to tell them respecting those things, that it behoves the righteous first to receive the promise of the inheritance which God promised to the fathers, and to reign in it, when they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated, and that the judgment should take place afterwards. For it is just that in that very creation in which they toiled or were afflicted, being proved in every way by suffering, they should receive the reward of their suffering; and that in the creation in which they were slain because of their love to God, in that they should be revived again; and that in the creation in which they endured servitude, in that they should reign. For God is rich in all things, and all things are His. It is fitting, therefore, that the creation itself, being restored to its primeval condition, should without restraint be under the dominion of the righteous; and the apostle has made this plain in the Epistle to the Romans, when he thus speaks: “For the expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature has been subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope; since the creature itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God” (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 32:1).​

Irenaeus states:

The Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man (Antichrist ) and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that “many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 32:1).​

The picture being portrayed here is that of a perfect environment consisting perfected beings being at total rest. This is a picture of millennial bliss.

Irenaeus adds:

These are [to take place] in the times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, which has been sanctified, in which God rested from all the works which He created, which is the true Sabbath of the righteous, which they shall not be engaged in any earthly occupation; but shall have a table at hand prepared for them by God, supplying them with all sorts of dishes. (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 33:2).​

The millennial earth is depicted as heaven on earth. It is devoid of any form of corruption or rebellion. There is no allowance made for the wicked. It is the abode of the righteous alone who are depicted as enjoying the bliss and rest of paradise before the fall.

Irenaeus elaborates on the early Chiliast expectation in a future millennium:

For as it is God truly who raises up man, so also does man truly rise from the dead, and not allegorically … and shall go forwards and flourish in the times of the kingdom, in order that he may be capable of receiving the glory of the Father (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 35:2).​

Tertullian:

Previous to Christ’s coming, our prayers are directed towards the end of this world, to the passing away thereof at the great day of the Lord— of His wrath and vengeance— the last day, which is hidden (from all), and known to none but the Father, although announced beforehand by signs and wonders, and the dissolution of the elements, and the conflicts of nations (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter XXII).

What a spectacle is that fast-approaching advent of our Lord, now owned by all, now highly exalted, now a triumphant One! What that exultation of the angelic hosts! What the glory of the rising saints! What the kingdom of the just thereafter! What the city New Jerusalem! Yes, and there are other sights: that last day of judgment, with its everlasting issues; that day unlooked for by the nations, the theme of their derision, when the world hoary with age, and all its many products, shall be consumed in one great flame! (De Spectaculis, Chapter XXX).​

Tertullian locates the second coming at “the last day” – which is “the end of this world, to the passing away thereof at the great day of the Lord the day.” This is the day of Christ’s “wrath and vengeance.” It is an approaching day that “is hidden (from all), and known to none but the Father, although announced beforehand by signs and wonders, and the dissolution of the elements, and the conflicts of nations.”

Where exactly are the saints said to be during the Chiliast millennium? Tertullian locates them in the New Jerusalem in Against Marcion Book III, Chapter XXV. This is believed to descend upon the millennial earth:

We do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, let down from heaven … We say that this city has been provided by God for receiving the saints on their resurrection, and refreshing them with the abundance of all really spiritual blessings, as a recompense for those which in the world we have either despised or lost; since it is both just and God-worthy that His servants should have their joy in the place where they have also suffered affliction for His name’s sake. ​

Tertullian tells us that “the saints on their resurrection” will possess “the divinely-built city of Jerusalem” which is said to be “let down from heaven” unto “the earth” at Christ’s Coming, “only in another state of existence.” The writer then suggests that the redeemed that are alive when Jesus comes experience “a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints.” Tertullian describes our current corrupt bodies as “the garment of the flesh” which must (of necessity) be “put off” at the Second Coming.

Like Irenaeus, Tertullian seems to see the return of man to this current earth in its perfected form in his new glorified body as a sign of ultimate victory over sin. The redeemed are therefore suitably rewarded for their sufferings in this life. Where they suffered loss, they now experience gain. Where they suffered “affliction” they now experience “joy.” This anticipated millennial earth is represented as a vindication of the saints.

Hippolytus briefly states:

The righteous shall obtain the incorruptible and unfading kingdom, who indeed are at present detained in Hades (Fragments of Hippolytus 1).​

He does not seem to go into detail on the matter of discipline in a future millennial kingdom. Like his view on Hades for the dead in Christ, he seems to anticipate a state and an age that is full of rewards for the righteous and full of rest.

They certainly did not claim it is the here and now between the first and second coming, like Amil do. It is a renovation after the Second Coming.

Revelation 20 states death and Satan is eliminated after this 1,000 rear reign of Christ the King on earth. So at times they are as confused as Amil are. But they are not Amil, because this kingdom is after the Second Coming, not before the Second Coming.

It was at the time of Augustine, that an Amil convinced Augustine to change from the accepted pre-mill position, and place this future perfect kingdom into the here and now.

Being confused and misunderstanding Scripture, even as an early church father, is not something to be proud about, and to keep teaching as truth, when in fact, it is erroneous doctrine.

So what if the Reformation cemented the post millennial thinking into church doctrine. It is still wrong, and Amil trying to rebrand the Millennium as only the here and now, does not fix error. It creates even more error.

Are you trying to convince us that the ecf as quoted thought there was a future kingdom on earth made perfect by the Second Coming of Christ as King, and that they actually thought that perfect kingdom was basically only the last 1992 years and not after the Second Coming?

The problem with today's pre-mill thought is that it is in opposition to post-mill and amil thought, instead of coming straight from God's Word. So they have no answer to amil who obviously are convinced this perfect kingdom is post the Second Coming, but refuse to allow pre-mill the same fundamental belief that the early church fathers did have.

Should it not be obvious that at the Second Coming, Satan is bound, the earth is renovated, a new heaven and earth, and that Christ rules on earth? It is perfect. Then after the 1,000 years is over, Satan is loosed.

Where is your perfect renovated earth without sin and death, in the here and now? Was that the dark ages? Did us modern humans miss it all, and a new gap formed in the last millennium between Revelation 20 and Revelation 21?

Your quotes are proof the Second Coming had not happened yet. Your quotes prove the Second Coming brings perfection on earth, not the first coming. Your quotes do not prove the early church fathers were Amil. Your quotes prove they had some interpretation correct and some interpretation wrong, just like every other generation of formed eschatological belief systems.

 

[WPM]

Find your OP comical.
Men taught ORALLY, for centuries to men who could not READ.
Men who taught ORALLY, were discovered FAULTY, after men broadly learned to READ and broadly had Scripture Available to READ.

Men who taught ORALLY, conveniently are the SAME, WHO Accuse men of Heresy....Are primarily the SAME men whose Historical Oral Teaching was Faulty.

It’s a rouse. Blaming men who go to the WITTEN SOURCE of Scripture, instead of depending on FAULTY Oral teaching...AS IF...that is worthy of an intended derogatory accusation.
Laughable on it’s face.

I refer you to the facts above.

 

[Timtofly]

Ok.

1. So you now accept that the second coming is the consummation. Great! That is what we Amils have argued for years, and which you have challenged.
2. You now believe Satan was bound at the First Advent. Great! That is what we Amils have argued for years, and which you have challenged.

The Second Coming is the consummation of sin, not creation.

Satan was bound in Genesis 3:15. Why do you give Satan so much power and authority? That was not evident in Job, was it? Satan only has power and authority when humans let him into their civil government. Since Jesus is not going to let Satan into the 1,000 year reign of Christ as King, that civil government will be 100% free of Satan and sin. Sin is Satan's deception and distortion of free will.

Of course Satan was constantly being bound during the earthly ministry of Jesus. Jesus did not allow Satan into His ministry, because Jesus was God, and could keep Satan bound. Do you think the Cross was God bowing down to Satan's will and demand? The Cross was God's plan and completed even before Satan was created.

God reminded Satan of that in Genesis 3:15.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm not hiding behind anybody--I'm here right now! ;) But you see, you aren't debating anything. You just pour out rhetoric to defend your style of avoiding websites, rebuttals, and quotations when the wrong people provide them. I don't think you can answer Thomas Ice. If you can't debate him now, then you can't debate him if he was here.

I've heard everything you have on this years ago. There is absolutely nothing new, nothing that needs debating. Your insulting approach towards Premill is on full display, and it is hardly evangelical in spirit. On the contrary, it is insulting and divisive.

Why can't you understand that he is not interested in debating against people who don't even post here? I share his view on that. It's frustrating when people like you defer to others like Thomas Ice instead of just giving your own thoughts on things. I have no interest in looking at some website with articles written by other people while I'm here on this forum. I can do that on my own if I want, but we're here trying to talk to you, not to Thomas Ice or anyone else who doesn't post here.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It's very interesting that Premillennial Dispensationalism has given rise to the same ideas about Israel after the flesh today. Many Christians idolize Israel and all things Jewish, and even have fallen from grace

They certainly did not claim it is the here and now between the first and second coming, like Amil do. It is a renovation after the Second Coming.

Revelation 20 states death and Satan is eliminated after this 1,000 rear reign of Christ the King on earth. So at times they are as confused as Amil are. But they are not Amil, because this kingdom is after the Second Coming, not before the Second Coming.

It was at the time of Augustine, that an Amil convinced Augustine to change from the accepted pre-mill position, and place this future perfect kingdom into the here and now.

Being confused and misunderstanding Scripture, even as an early church father, is not something to be proud about, and to keep teaching as truth, when in fact, it is erroneous doctrine.

So what if the Reformation cemented the post millennial thinking into church doctrine. It is still wrong, and Amil trying to rebrand the Millennium as only the here and now, does not fix error. It creates even more error.

I agree. Amil is insensible. However, we have to respect that for many centuries good and reputable Christians have held to this notion that the Millennium is symbolic. That would make the Millennium the current age, which again, is completely insensible, as you suggest.

Are you trying to convince us that the ecf as quoted thought there was a future kingdom on earth made perfect by the Second Coming of Christ as King, and that they actually thought that perfect kingdom was basically only the last 1992 years and not after the Second Coming?

The problem with today's pre-mill thought is that it is in opposition to post-mill and amil thought, instead of coming straight from God's Word. So they have no answer to amil who obviously are convinced this perfect kingdom is post the Second Coming, but refuse to allow pre-mill the same fundamental belief that the early church fathers did have.

Should it not be obvious that at the Second Coming, Satan is bound, the earth is renovated, a new heaven and earth, and that Christ rules on earth? It is perfect. Then after the 1,000 years is over, Satan is loosed.

Where is your perfect renovated earth without sin and death, in the here and now? Was that the dark ages? Did us modern humans miss it all, and a new gap formed in the last millennium between Revelation 20 and Revelation 21?

Your quotes are proof the Second Coming had not happened yet. Your quotes prove the Second Coming brings perfection on earth, not the first coming. Your quotes do not prove the early church fathers were Amil. Your quotes prove they had some interpretation correct and some interpretation wrong, just like every other generation of formed eschatological belief systems.

into Law keeping....they're unfortunately ripe for what is coming.

Earthly Israel and the Temple might well turn out to be ground zero for the strong delusion (Satan deceiving the nations)....which 2 Thess 2 says will happen BEFORE the return of Christ. Those that are expecting a messiah to usher in a utopia on earth in it's present form are going to be vulnerable to the strong delusion. We're going to be very much tested by the counterfeit that comes on the scene before the real thing.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed.


Haven't read the whole thread but another HUGE problem with Dispensationalism to me is that it has robbed the church of its power.....because of having lost the revelation that Christ is victoriously ruling & reigning now (all authority in heaven and earth has been given to Him) and that we the church are ruling & reigning with Him now, with His delegated authority. It seems to be a really big factor in why the church is in retreat and has lost the ground that it previously had taken in the west.....much of the church has essentially defaulted into sitting around waiting for Him to start ruling & reigning in a future age. It's a stronghold and deception in the minds of many.

I hope that people will ask the Lord for the truth and be willing to at least re-examine their beliefs and the scriptures about this. Revelation is a highly allegorical VISION that John was given, so we need Gods help to understand it. A literal understanding of Rev contradicts the teachings of scripture that came before it was given....which say that this world in its present form gets burned up and annihilated at the return of Christ. The lost get judged at this time...and believers receive heavenly bodies. There will be no unbelievers left to populate the world to come and believers certainly will not be procreating in the world to come because as Jesus said, in the resurrection we shall be like the angels.[/QUOTE]

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why can't you understand that he is not interested in debating against people who don't even post here? I share his view on that. It's frustrating when people like you defer to others like Thomas Ice instead of just giving your own thoughts on things. I have no interest in looking at some website with articles written by other people while I'm here on this forum. I can do that on my own if I want, but we're here trying to talk to you, not to Thomas Ice or anyone else who doesn't post here.

Just think for a moment about what you're saying. I identify a brief set of quotations outlining arguments for Premil that I agree with. But you won't look at it because it doesn't represent my views? How weak is that? You won't consider anything that isn't here? Don't you consider the Apostle Paul, and he isn't here! That's the Bible!

Christians deserve to be heard, in particular leaders established by God, even if they are imperfect. God made them and gave them gifts. They're entitled to be heard.

I don't even agree with Ice on his overall eschatology. I only quoted him because he provided the quotes necessary to make my own case! You're ridiculous and you can't even see it!

Are you telling me you can't answer the basic argument that Ice presented? If not, then you can't respond to my arguments either, because I found in him a concise way of presenting my views without unnecessary length and complication. He had done the work already for me.

Is it too difficult to read a few pages that quote the Church Fathers and experts in Christian history to determine that Premil was the dominant belief of the early Church? And you can't respond to this why????

BANNED MATERIAL: CAUTION!
It is generally recognized within the scholarly world of early church historians that premillennialism was the most widely held view of the earliest church tradition. One of the leading experts on the doctrine of the early church is J. N. D. Kelly, who says, “millenarianism, or the theory that the returned Christ would reign on earth for a thousand years, came to find increasing support among Christian teachers. . . . This millenarian, or 'chiliastic', doctrine was widely popular at this time.”17 "The great theologians who followed the Apologists, Irenaeus, Tertullian and Hippolytus, were primarily concerned to defend the traditional eschatological scheme against Gnosticism,” explains Kelly. “They are all exponents of millenarianism." 18 Philip Schaff, the dean of American church historians and himself a postmillennialist, provided the following summary of the early church’s view of the millennium: The most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene age is the prominent chiliasm, or millenarianism, that is the belief of a visible reign of Christ in glory on earth with the risen saints for a thousand years, before the general resurrection and judgment. It was indeed not the doctrine of the church embodied in any creed or form of devotion, but a widely current opinion of distinguished teachers, such as Barnabas, Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Methodius, and Lactantius.