Spotting Heretics

[Behold]

24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, 25 of which I became a minister
What good is it to

The verse you quoted.....That is what Paul did. Not you.
Paul was stoned to death. Not you.
Paul was shipwrecked a few times.. Not you.
Paul wrote most of the NT, other then the Gospels and the Revelation... Not you.
Paul wrote all the Church Doctrine... Not you.
Paul said that he accomplished more for Christ, then all the other Apostle's combined... Not you.

Paul was the greatest Christian who has ever lived...... not me, not you.

Paul died a Marytr for Christ, for the sake of the Gospel. Have you? Have you even been on a mission trip to give that a try?
I dont think so.

So, try to keep it real, EloyCraft.

 

[amigo de christo]

The corruption of the Catholic church IS it's doctrine.
I firmly resist corrupt, Catholic doctrine.

lambs resist any corrupt doctrine . The problem is that within both the CC and protestant realm
Men have arisen and named official doctrine , WHICH SHOULD NEVER have been even named as DOCTRINE
but rather heretical and dangerous . BUT when leaders say THUS SAYETH the LORD , too many take it as though
IT IS inspired by GOD when in truth its inspired by darkness .
You were right in what you stated earlier . HOW are we gonna know if the doctrine we are being fed
is accurate and pure and true . BY KNOWING THOSE BIBLES . But too many folks
just listen too many men who twist even what the BIBLE says to fit their OWN DOCTRINE .
ITS TIME FOR AN ALL OUT RETURN TOBIBLES >

 

[Wrangler]

From the guy that doesn't understand what a tradition is so isn't able to grasp what Jesus taught about it either

Claiming I don't know what a tradition is does not make it true. Obviously, we disagree about it's relative importance. And you can take you Appeal to Intimidation and what you'd be afraid of and compare it to Scripture.

 

[EloyCraft]

The bible is Truth.

Men who want to sin in judgment of the Bible, created the idea of "infallibility".
Men are stupid like that..
Religious men are even worse.

You can't accept a Church that has divine power. Forgives sin. A teaching authority protected by Divine power. Has the promise of enduring till the end. Why do you deny the promises and gifts Jesus gave His Church?
Can't admit that thos exist. Jesus couldn't follow through with whatever he promises. Have you noticed there isn't one single promise or power Christ gave th Church that you haven't explained away? Your love to be greater than outweighs your love of truth. You deny Christ has power to give His po wer to His Church and power to pres rve and keep it.Even the men who killed Him he taught everyone to obey. You think your rebellion is what he taught was right? The scriptures alone is a teaching tool. It isn't a gospel spreading Church maker. You reject the tools required for Christs Church. You would not have preserved the faith for your grandkids or pass it down. You can't convert anyone since the bible isn't for unbelievers. You reject the redemptive power of the cross, and mock those who have shed their blood and the redemptive power of! Heir suffering. The Church grows because the blood of martyrs redeemed the persecutors. You would not know Jesus as anyone but an obscure figure of the past if what you call a Church really was true.

 

[Behold]

You can't accept a Church that has divine power. Forgives sin. .

You and i have have ZERO discussions about a "church", so, i think you are confusing me with a few other members here..
You might want to check on that, and get yourself up to speed.

Also...

You are stating that a denomination, is the "church" that has divine power.

Let me show you something......

1.) There are no Catholics in Heaven.
2.) There are no Protestants in Heaven.
3.) There are no denominations in Heaven.
4.) There is only the "body of Christ", which is made up only of the born again.

= Not the water baptized religious but lost
= Not the sprinkled and confirmed religious but lost
= Not Mary worshipers who have never been born again.

Just the redeemed by the blood of the lamb, the "Born again" find Heaven as their own.
This is the "body of Christ". This is the "temple of the Holy Spirit".
Its EACH Born again Believer who is the CHURCH, the BODY of CHRIST, The BRIDE OF CHRIST...

Who is in heaven?
The Born again, the Host of Heaven, Jesus, and God.

God is not a Catholic.
Jesus is not a Catholic.
God is not a Calvinist.
Jesus is not a Calvinist.


Learn to get past all this man made denominational theory theology, and you can begin to exist in the correct understanding of the "body of Christ".

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

You and i have have ZERO discussions about a "church", so, i think you are confusing me with a few other members here..
You might want to check on that, and get yourself up to speed.

Also...

You are stating that a denomination, is the "church" that has divine power.

Let me show you something......

1.) There are no Catholics in Heaven.
2.) There are no Protestants in Heaven.
3.) There are no denominations in Heaven.
4.) There is only the "body of Christ", which is made up only of the born again.

= Not the water baptized religious but lost
= Not the sprinkled and confirmed religious but lost
= Not Mary worshipers who have never been born again.

Just the redeemed by the blood of the lamb, the "Born again" find Heaven as own.
This is the "body of Christ". This is the "temple of the Holy Spirit".
Its EACH Born again Believer is the CHURCH, the BODY of CHRIST, The BRIDE OF CHRIST.

Who is in heaven?
The Born again, the Host of Heaven, Jesus, and God.

God is not a Catholic.
Jesus is not a Catholic.
God is not a Calvinist.
Jesus is not a Calvinist.


Learn to get past all this man made denominational theory theology, and you can begin to exist in the correct understanding of the "body of Christ".

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

You can't accept a Church that has divine power. Forgives sin.

Would you please post the book,chalter, verse(s) where God gave a a church the power to forgive sins after abdicating that power in himself?
Thank you in advance.

 

[Illuminator]

The bible is Truth.

Men who want to sin in judgment of the Bible, created the idea of "infallibility".
Men are stupid like that..
Religious men are even worse.

Isa. 35:8, 54:13-17 – this prophecy refers to the Church as the Holy Way where sons will be taught by God and they will not err. The Church has been given the gift of infallibility when teaching about faith and morals, where her sons are taught directly by God and will not err. This gift of infallibility means that the Church is prevented from teaching error by the power of the Holy Spirit (it does not mean that Church leaders do not sin!)

Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 – the early Church is identified as the “Way” prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where fools will not err therein.

Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 – Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

Matt. 16:18 – Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.

Matt. 16:19 – for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.

Matt. 18:17-18 – the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

Matt. 28:20 – Jesus promises that He will be with the Church always. Jesus’ presence in the Church assures infallible teaching on faith and morals. With Jesus present, we can never be deceived.

Mark 8:33 – non-Catholics sometimes use this verse to down play Peter’s authority. This does not make sense. In this verse, Jesus rebukes Peter to show the import of His Messianic role as the Savior of humanity. Moreover, at this point, Peter was not yet the Pope with the keys, and Jesus did not rebuke Peter for his teaching. Jesus rebuked Peter for his lack of understanding.

Luke 10:16 – whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me. Jesus is very clear that the bishops of the Church speak with Christ’s infallible authority.

Behold can't comprehend what the Bible teaches about infallibility, so he makes up his own definition. The Apostles and elders reached an infallible decision in Acts 15, but that truth is ignored because it doesn't fit the man made tradition of a non-infallible church.

 

[Illuminator]

Would you please post the book,chalter, verse(s) where God gave a a church the power to forgive sins after abdicating that power in himself?
Thank you in advance.

Sure, lots, but you won't accept any of it. Jesus didn't "abdicating that power in himself", He transferred it to those who share in Christ's authority.

John 20:21 – before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, “as the Father sent me, so I send you.” As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.

John 20:22 – the Lord “breathes” on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord “breathes” divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.

John 20:23 – Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

Matt. 9:8 – this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to “men.” Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles’ successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors? NOWHERE.

Matt. 9:6; Mark 2:10 – Christ forgave sins as a man (not God) to convince us that the “Son of man” has authority to forgive sins on earth.

Luke 5:24 – Luke also points out that Jesus’ authority to forgive sins is as a man, not God. The Gospel writers record this to convince us that God has given this authority to men. This authority has been transferred from Christ to the apostles and their successors.

Matt. 18:18 – the apostles are given authority to bind and loose. The authority to bind and loose includes administering and removing the temporal penalties due to sin. The Jews understood this since the birth of the Church.

John 20:22-23; Matt. 18:18 – the power to remit/retain sin is also the power to remit/retain punishment due to sin. If Christ’s ministers can forgive the eternal penalty of sin, they can certainly remit the temporal penalty of sin (which is called an “indulgence”).

2 Cor. 2:10 – Paul forgives in the presence of Christ (some translations refer to the presences of Christ as “in persona Christi”). Some say that this may also be a reference to sins.

2 Cor. 5:18 – the ministry of reconciliation was given to the ambassadors of the Church. This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance.

James 5:15-16 – in verse 15 we see that sins are forgiven by the priests in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man’s authority to forgive sins on earth. Then in verse 16, James says “Therefore, confess our sins to one another,” in reference to the men referred to in verse 15, the priests of the Church.

1 Tim. 2:5 – Christ is the only mediator, but He was free to decide how His mediation would be applied to us. The Lord chose to use priests of God to carry out His work of forgiveness.

Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 – even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.

SACRAMENT OF CONFESSION & FORGIVENESS OF SINS - Scripture Catholic

What chapter and verse gives you and your predecessors the authority to abolish the New Testament priesthood???

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Sure, lots, but you won't accept any of it. "abdicating that power in himself" is fallacious reasoning.

John 20:21 – before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, “as the Father sent me, so I send you.” As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.

John 20:22 – the Lord “breathes” on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord “breathes” divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.

John 20:23 – Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

Matt. 9:8 – this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to “men.” Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles’ successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors? NOWHERE.

Matt. 9:6; Mark 2:10 – Christ forgave sins as a man (not God) to convince us that the “Son of man” has authority to forgive sins on earth.

Luke 5:24 – Luke also points out that Jesus’ authority to forgive sins is as a man, not God. The Gospel writers record this to convince us that God has given this authority to men. This authority has been transferred from Christ to the apostles and their successors.

Matt. 18:18 – the apostles are given authority to bind and loose. The authority to bind and loose includes administering and removing the temporal penalties due to sin. The Jews understood this since the birth of the Church.

John 20:22-23; Matt. 18:18 – the power to remit/retain sin is also the power to remit/retain punishment due to sin. If Christ’s ministers can forgive the eternal penalty of sin, they can certainly remit the temporal penalty of sin (which is called an “indulgence”).

2 Cor. 2:10 – Paul forgives in the presence of Christ (some translations refer to the presences of Christ as “in persona Christi”). Some say that this may also be a reference to sins.

2 Cor. 5:18 – the ministry of reconciliation was given to the ambassadors of the Church. This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance.

James 5:15-16 – in verse 15 we see that sins are forgiven by the priests in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man’s authority to forgive sins on earth. Then in verse 16, James says “Therefore, confess our sins to one another,” in reference to the men referred to in verse 15, the priests of the Church.

1 Tim. 2:5 – Christ is the only mediator, but He was free to decide how His mediation would be applied to us. The Lord chose to use priests of God to carry out His work of forgiveness.

Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 – even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.

SACRAMENT OF CONFESSION & FORGIVENESS OF SINS - Scripture Catholic

What chapter and verse gives you and your predecessors the authority to abolish the New Testament priesthood???

We have pastors and preachers in the Protestant churches.

When the apostles forgave sins doesn't mean what you think it does.
Jesus gave his Apostles authority to forgive sins so that repentant people for whom the good news resonated as truth could enter into the body of Christ's faithful.

That's the actual church of Christ. The population of the faithful who are in Christ and Christ is in them. And it is in that church that the priesthood exists.
1 Peter 2 tells us.

 

[Illuminator]

We have pastors and preachers in the Protestant churches.

That's nice, but your pastors and preachers will deny they have the power to forgive sins. Counseling sessions are helpful, but there is no forgiveness of sins in a counselling session.

When the apostles forgave sins doesn't mean what you think it does.
Jesus gave his Apostles authority to forgive sins so that repentant people for whom the good news resonated as truth could enter into the body of Christ's faithful.

It doesn't reduce the power to forgive sins to a mere historical event, so it doesn't mean what you think it means.

That's the actual church of Christ. The population of the faithful who are in Christ and Christ is in them. And it is in that church that the priesthood exists.
1 Peter 2 tells us.

1 Peter 2 doesn't cancel out 1 Peter 5. You make the common priesthood a false dichotomy with the ministerial priesthood. (it's both/and, not either/or) The Bible doesn't have your either/or approach.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

That's nice, but your pastors and preachers will deny they have the power to forgive sins. Counseling sessions are helpful, but there is no forgiveness of sins in a counselling session.

It doesn't reduce the power to forgive sins to a mere historical event, so it doesn't mean what you think it means.

1 Peter 2 doesn't cancel out 1 Peter 5. You make the common priesthood a false dichotomy with the ministerial priesthood. The Bible doesn't do that.

You misunderstand the Bible apostles authority to forgive sins. Which is why you don't understand the office of minister or pastor.

It is as God wills.

 

[Brakelite]

Because in this and similar discussions the line of demarcation drawn by Catholics is Catholic vs. Protestants, meaning 'Protestants believe this'. And so I want to distinguish myself as 'someone who doesn't believe Catholic doctrine' rather than 'someone who believes Protestant doctrine'. Catholic error was carried over into and remains in many Protestant churches. I reject the error of both.

The reason many Catholic errors remain within protestant denominations is they didn't protest enough. Instead of getting on with the job and continuing on the road to true reformation, one very essential Catholic concept which they inherited guaranteed they remain bound. That error was the idea that the church as an institution has ultimate authority in declaring what is right and what is wrong. Thus history attested to this in the resulting persecutions of other reform churches. Every new revelation of truth resulted in the persecution of those who couldn't accept it.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

The reason many Catholic errors remain within protestant denominations is they didn't protest enough. Instead of getting on with the job and continuing on the road to true reformation, one very essential Catholic concept which they inherited guaranteed they remain bound. That error was the idea that the church as an institution has ultimate authority in declaring what is right and what is wrong. Thus history attested to this in the resulting persecutions of other reform churches. Every new revelation of truth resulted in the persecution of those who couldn't accept it.

Yes. Denominationalism has divided God's people church.
Sad.

 

[Illuminator]

You misunderstand the Bible apostles authority to forgive sins. Which is why you don't understand the office of minister or pastor.

It is as God wills.

But you don't give YOUR understanding of the power to forgive sins as I indicted with 15 scriptural supports, all you say is I misunderstand without any explanation. An "office" without successors is not an office, it's an employment opportunity hired by a committee. How you get that out of the Bible is anybody's guess.

By What Authority? A Challenge to Protestant Pastors

 

[Illuminator]

The reason many Catholic errors remain within protestant denominations is they didn't protest enough. Instead of getting on with the job and continuing on the road to true reformation, one very essential Catholic concept which they inherited guaranteed they remain bound. That error was the idea that the church as an institution has ultimate authority in declaring what is right and what is wrong. Thus history attested to this in the resulting persecutions of other reform churches. Every new revelation of truth resulted in the persecution of those who couldn't accept it.

Nonsense. History does not attest to your phoney exaggerations and twisting of facts. Protestants are not daughters of the whore. You guys see whores everywhere. That's a mental illness!.

Truth is as natural to our minds as oxygen is to our lungs and food is to our digestive system. It is a great mistake to regard the teaching of truth as an imposition. The Church does not, nor can she, “impose” truth. Rather, she endeavors to propose truths to those who are disposed to receive them. The Vatican’s Declaration of Religious Liberty states that, “The truth cannot impose itself except by virtue of its own truth, as it wins over the mind with gentleness and power.

for further reading, see John Paul II and the Truth about Freedom

 

[EloyCraft]

The verse you quoted.....That is what Paul did. Not you.
Paul was stoned to death. Not you.
Paul was shipwrecked a few times.. Not you.
Paul wrote most of the NT, other then the Gospels and the Revelation... Not you.
Paul wrote all the Church Doctrine... Not you.
Paul said that he accomplished more for Christ, then all the other Apostle's combined... Not you.

Paul was the greatest Christian who has ever lived...... not me, not you.

Paul died a Marytr for Christ, for the sake of the Gospel. Have you? Have you even been on a mission trip to give that a try?
I dont think so.

So, try to keep it real, EloyCraft.

You agree then. It's true. That's the power of the cross. Guess what .... our suffering doesn't have to match Paul's. Paul taught us to offer our members as an acceptable offering ... Right? If we die with Him we will rise too.

That's redemptive suffering in the here and now. The cross is foolishness to those.....

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Which Catholic beliefs are corrupting protestant Churches? They carried over by Luther or Calvin?

Beliefs concerning the destruction of the law (the very thing Jesus said he did not come to do), and lifeless programmed worship.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

That's redemptive suffering in the here and now. The cross is foolishness to those.

God's people are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. And that blood is applied through faith in that blood, not works of suffering.
This fundamental error of the Catholic church in thinking we receive God's righteousness through works is why it was necessary to abandon the Catholic church to it's corruption and be separate from it.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

But you don't give YOUR understanding of the power to forgive sins as I indicted with 15 scriptural supports, all you say is I misunderstand without any explanation. An "office" without successors is not an office, it's an employment opportunity hired by a committee. How you get that out of the Bible is anybody's guess.

By What Authority? A Challenge to Protestant Pastors

My understanding is through God's word.
Jesus has the power to forgive sins.

The apostles had the authority to forgive sins because when they ministered the gospel they were communicating God's forgiveness of those sins.
The apostles authority was through the holy spirit.

Today someone led to Christ can repent and ask God's forgiveness and accept Jesus as savior if they're walking on a beach. And they are forgiven, and are saved. Because of God's grace bestowing irrevocable faith and salvation.

No pastor, no preacher, no priest.
God forgives sins.