homosexuality and ethics
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2ndRateMind
Active Member
I assume you meant to write 'want to share?'. The answer to that question is: Not particularly.
Best wishes, 2RM.
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
2ndRateMind
Active Member
Of course I care. But for me, it's an integrity thing. We all have a vocation in this life; a mission, if you like. Some reason why God made us the way we are. And I intend to fulfil mine to the best of my ability. As you have probably gathered by now, I am not your average common or garden conventional Christian, and so I arouse in some of those that are a certain amount of resentment, sometimes even hostility. There are those who want to bring me down to heel, but I have decided not to allow that to happen. It would be a betrayal of my convictions, and so I do what I do without regard to whether and where God may eventually deploy my soul.
Best wishes, 2RM.
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Agreed and, Christians have no business judging sinners to begin with! If someone does not claim Christianity we are not to judge but if they are a Christian, or claiming to be yet still sin - have at it!
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
the Bible says that we are all sinners, and there is not one person who ever does any good to please the Lord. God did not make us sinners, it is what we choose to be.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
Not so. We were all born sinners because of Adam's and Eve's sin. It is up to the individual, once they reach the age to be able to decide for themselves -- around age 13 -- to believe in the salvific power of God and accept Jesus Christ as their Savior.
Do you really think that there is not one person who ever does any good to please the Lord? Really??? Do you think that everyone, including Christians, never does any good??? If so, that is very, very sad.
2ndRateMind
Active Member
That may be so. However, I think we compensate for each other's weaknesses, and together we can build God's Kingdom on Earth.
Best wishes, 2RM.
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ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
there are passages in the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, where we read, "before the children knew right from wrong", as in Isaiah 7:16; Romans 9:11, "Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand"; and Jonah 4:11, "And should not I pity Nineveh, that great city, in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know their right hand from their left, and also much cattle?”; Deuteronomy 1:39, "‘Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it"
It is clear that there is a time, known only to the Lord, when all infants are "innocent". A SINNER by definition is someone who has actually SINNED. Can a new born baby commit any sin? Yes, we are all born with sinful natures, but cannot be actual sinners.
When King David's baby died, in 2 Samuel 12:23 David says, " But now that the baby is dead, why should I fast? I can’t bring him back to life. Someday I will go to him, but he cannot come back to me.”. There is no doubt that David is in heaven, where his dead baby is also! On what basis did his dead son go to heaven? It can only be because of the passages I have shown, where they are not "sinners" in the Lord's eyes, till a certain age
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
sounds like you believe in a "works" salvation, whereby our "good works" will somehow get us to heaven! This is a LIE from the devil.
This is what the Infallible Word of God says about this LIE
But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away. Isaiah 64:6
As it is written, “There is no one righteous; no, not one. 11 There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned away. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not so much as one.” 13 “Their throat is an open tomb. With their tongues they have used deceit.” “The poison of vipers is under their lips.” 14 “Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.” 15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood. 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways. 17 The way of peace, they haven’t known.” 18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” 19 Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God. 20 Because by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified in his sight; for through the law comes the knowledge of sin. 21 But now apart from the law, a righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all those who believe. For there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God sent to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God’s forbearance; 26 to demonstrate his righteousness at this present time; that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him who has faith in Jesus., Romans 3
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work, Romans 11:6
for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, that no one would boast, Ephesians 2
5 not by works of righteousness which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior; 7 that being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life, Titus 3
2ndRateMind
Active Member
You probably won't be surprised to learn I have a theory on this, as well. Firstly, salvation cannot be by works, or the richest philanthropists would fill heaven. You could buy your way in, and this offends our sense of natural justice.
Nor, I think, is salvation a matter of belief. There are many perfectly decent people who, by accident of birth, will follow other religions and traditions. To penalise them because they are not Christian is an equal offense against natural justice.
So I favour a virtue ethical theory. One gets past St Peter not because of what one has done, or what one believes, but because of what one is. In philosopher-speak, the qualification is not ethical, nor epistemological, but ontological. The good news is, all you need to do to gain virtue and become virtuous is to practice virtue. The bad news is, it gets harder to gain the next level as you ascend the virtue hierarchy. But at least one has been prepared by what has gone before, and the reward is ever greater proximity to God.
Best wishes, 2RM.
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ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
2ndRateMind
Active Member
Indeed not. But as we have already discovered, that means more to you than it does to me. Meanwhile, I can take advantage of the philosophical progress humanity has made since the Bible was compiled.
Best wishes, 2RM.
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ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
2ndRateMind
Active Member
All learning leads towards God. He, after all, created it all, that we might follow Him on our various journeys through our lives.
Best wishes, 2RM.
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
John 14:6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Jesus here says EXCLUSIVE with ZERO exceptions.
Every religion in the world is FALSE and DEMONIC
2ndRateMind
Active Member
Hmmm. If I were trying to start a religion, I might say something similar. But I do not accuse Jesus of being so disingenuous. Rather, I think He sets the example. It is the extent to which we follow that example that determines whether we are on His way, access His truth, and share in His life. Following His example does not require us to worship Him, or even believe in Him. But I will readily admit that those who are Christian start out with a huge advantage over those who are not.
Best wishes, 2RM.
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2ndRateMind
Active Member
OK. After all that by way of digression, it is probably now time to revert to the thread theme, which is homosexuality and ethics. So far as Anglicans go, my basic problem with the (largely) African view that homosexuality is sinful is that I simply do not see why that should be so. To say it is sinful because the Bible says it is begs the question. Why does the Bible say so? No reason is given. Unless and until the anti-gay brigade comes up with rational arguments as to why homosexuality is sinful, I do not see why anyone should pay them any attention at all. Instead, my position is that this is simply an ancient prejudice that has no place in modern, civilised societies.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Best wishes, 2RM.
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Skovand1075
Active Member
What I always suggest is this.
most likely every single book you’ve read, if you’ve even read books on this subject, most likely you’ve just heard someone isolating a few verses in English and repeating it saying well it says this clear as day right here and so it must mean this.
So what I suggest is that if you’re really curious about this subject, then look up the theological writings of LGBT Christian scholars. See how they work with what’s there and why. See how they generate their theological positions. Once you’ve read a few and engaged with a few in questions online then you can decide what you think it says and what you think it means and how it works with theology and the Bible as a whole.
most likely every single book you’ve read, if you’ve even read books on this subject, most likely you’ve just heard someone isolating a few verses in English and repeating it saying well it says this clear as day right here and so it must mean this.
So what I suggest is that if you’re really curious about this subject, then look up the theological writings of LGBT Christian scholars. See how they work with what’s there and why. See how they generate their theological positions. Once you’ve read a few and engaged with a few in questions online then you can decide what you think it says and what you think it means and how it works with theology and the Bible as a whole.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Setting aside God, and the Bible, just for a second.
Lets look at Nature.....as in Mother Nature.
Does not Mother Nature, the order of the species, not make clear that sex that cannot reproduce the species, is not "natural"?
So, if that is beyond someone's comprehension, let me slow it down.
What happens if Gay sex is the only sex?
What happens to the human race?
A.) It becomes EXTINCT.
Why? Because the central and main reason for SEX is to REPRODUCE the SPECIES........and Homosexual sex cannot reproduce the species.
Is that not clear?
Is that too difficult to understand, or does that not fit someone's agenda or lifestyle?
Then let me bring it down to a CRAWL.
If you take all the homosexuals......>Male......and put them on an Island. And give them health care, food, protection, shelter, comfort, entertainment...
And if you take all the female homosexuals and put them on an Island, and give them health care, food and water, protection, shelter.....
= If you leave them both for 150 yrs, and go back, they are EXTINCT.
Why?
Because Mother Nature, has SPOKEN regarding their SEXUALITY as being UNNATURAL.
So, think on that, if Romans Chapter 1 starting at verse 24 till the end of the chapter, does not fit your "contemporary" opinion, reader.
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