homosexuality and ethics

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Eternally Grateful

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Precisely. So our sexualities are innate, which implies genetic predisposition.

Best wishes, 2RM.
this is not true. Any sexual sin comes from our mind. not our genetics. If it came from genetics it would not be a sin.

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of their sexual sin (homo) was rampant. it was worse than we see in the US right now. but we are headed that way.

God also called that sin an abomination. those are gods words not mine

However. we still need to love the sinner.. Unless we have no sin we have no right to judge, all we can do is come alongside and try to help show them the grace God showed us as sinners. and pray they find the gospel as we did.
 
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2ndRateMind

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it is very simple. either the Bible is right, when it very clearly says that homosexuality is SIN, or so called "science". Both cannot be right. I know that I 100% believe in what the Bible says, as it is ALONE the Infallible Word of Almighty God.

Hmmm. Science is as good as the evidence and reasoning it is based on. Neither more nor less. The Bible, on the other hand, doesn't use evidence, or reason, just unsupported assertion, myth, and opinion. Where they differ, I prefer my knowledge justified by evidence and reasoning.

And you still haven't even begun to explain how you know that the Bible is the infallible word of God. Or is this just more unsupported assertion, myth and opinion?

Best wishes, 2RM.
 
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ByGraceThroughFaith

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Hmmm. Science is as good as the evidence it is based on. Neither more nor less. The Bible, on the other hand, doesn't use evidence, just unsupported assertion, myth, and opinion. Where they differ, I prefer science. And you still haven't even begun to explain how you know that the Bible is the infallible word of God.

Best wishes, 2RM.

what "christian" are you? what "book" to you believe in?
 

2ndRateMind

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Fair question. I'll answer your question if you answer mine. My answer is that I believe the broad historical narrative of the Bible, as corroborated by archeology, and the ethically 'good' parts of the Bible, mainly to be found in the Gospels.

Now, given the fact that much of the OT was written 8000 to 4000 years ago, by a (by our standards) primitive bronze age tribe, and much of the NT some 1800 years ago and shows its age, why do you think the Bible to be the infallible word of God?

Best wishes, 2RM
 
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Jim B

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Fair question. I'll answer your question if you answer mine. My answer is that I believe the broad historical narrative of the Bible, as corroborated by archeology, and the ethically 'good' parts of the Bible, mainly to be found in the Gospels.

Now, given the fact that much of the OT was written 8000 to 4000 years ago, by a (by our standards) primitive bronze age tribe, and much of the NT some 1800 years ago and shows its age, why do you think the Bible to be the infallible word of God?

Best wishes, 2RM

Do you think that people's ability to reason, believe, and express themselves has changed over time?
 

2ndRateMind

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Do you think that people's ability to reason, believe, and express themselves has changed over time?

It absolutely has. In Biblical times, the Jews had yet to define what reason is, what an argument is, and how logic works. They 'reasoned' in couplets, and metaphors*. It was not until the dark ages that the scholastic clerics (with a little help from the ancient Greek philosopher Aristotle) started to discover and formalise these foundational matters. Their (the Jewish) situation was compounded, of course, by a sparse vocabulary. If you don't have a word for a concept, it is difficult to manipulate that concept with the mind.

Best wishes, 2RM.

*eg., chosen at random: Habakkuk 3:5. KJV
Before him went the pestilence, and burning coals went forth at his feet.
 
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2ndRateMind

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Your answers have shown that you are not really interested in what the Bible actually says

Oh I see. [Yawn] It's my fault you can't find the arguments to justify your position. How predictable. [/Yawn].

I am interested in what is true, and if some passage in the Bible doesn't measure up, it gets rejected. I commend this strategy to you. All that is necessary is for you to find the guts to think for yourself. Unfortunately I can't do that for you.

Best wishes, 2RM.
 
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ByGraceThroughFaith

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Oh I see. [Yawn] It's my fault you can't find the arguments to justify your position. How predictable. [/Yawn].

I am interested in what is true, and if some passage in the Bible doesn't measure up, it gets rejected. I commend this strategy to you. All that is necessary is for you to find the guts to think for yourself.

Best wishes, 2RM.

you reject the passages in the Bible that don't agree with your personal beliefs!
 

2ndRateMind

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you reject the passages in the Bible that don't agree with your personal beliefs!

Absolutely I do. And I see nothing wrong in that. God gave us minds, and the capacity to discriminate between the true and the false. We must assume He intended for us to use them both.

Best wishes, 2RM.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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Absolutely I do. And I see nothing wrong in that. God gave us minds, and the capacity to discriminate between the true and the false. We must assume He intended for us to use them both.

Best wishes, 2RM.

in #46 you said

I'm not entirely sure I agree. I find I am sexually attracted to beautiful women a lot, and handsome men not at all. It could have been the other way round, but it isn't. 'Twin' studies by scientists show considerable consistency in sexuality among monozygotic (identical) twins, rather less so among dizygotic (non-identical) twins, and none at all among ordinary siblings. To me, this indicates that our various sexualities are affected by our genetic make-up, always remembering that our genes do not determine our behaviour, merely influence it.

You are here justifying homosexuality because of "science" that he flawed, as done mostly by god-rejecting sinful people.

The Holy Bible is very clear, in both the Old and New Testaments, that homosexuality is SINFUL, and that God will indeed punish those who practice this as a life-style.

The Bible is also very clear in Romans 1:27, where Pauls calls attraction to the opposite sex, "natural", where the Greek word is used to define what is "in born", in each persons DNA

in #42 you say of yourself, "Speaking as an unabashed liberal", which would put your views against the Teachings of the Bible, as is clear from what you say in #46, etc
 

2ndRateMind

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So far as I understand the theology, Christians have a new covenant and are not bound by the strictures of the OT. As for the Gospels, it seems Jesus was silent on the matter. If homosexuality is an issue, let alone a sin, we might have expected some comment from Him. But there is nothing. Thus, I feel free to make up my own mind on the matter. So as for Paul, normally so wise and compassionate, I just think he is wrong on this one. I put this down to residual cultural bias.

Best wishes, 2RM.
 
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ByGraceThroughFaith

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So far as I understand the theology, Christians have a new covenant and are not bound by the strictures of the OT. As for the Gospels, it seems Jesus was silent on the matter. If homosexuality is an issue, let alone a sin, we might have expected some comment from Him. But there is nothing. Thus, I feel free to make up my own mind on the matter. So as for Paul, normally so wise and compassionate, I just think he is wrong on this one.

Best wishes, 2RM.

In Matthew 19:4-6, Jesus is very clear, "And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female. and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

God Created man and woman as two distinct persons, MALE and FEMALE, and coommanded that they should marry each other, that it, to the opposite sex, and not the same sex. That is, only hetrosexual relations. If Jesus accepted homosexuality, then He would not have said what He clearly does. In Jesus' language, He also is clear that "trans" is wrong and sinful.

There is no a single instance, where Jesus contradicts what His own Law in the Old Testament, says on homosexuality. He came to fulfil the Law. Leviticus 18:22 is very clear, "You are not to sleep with a man as with a woman; it is detestable" God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, because of homosexuality.

in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Paul, who wrote under the guidance of God the Holy Spirit, says, "Or don’t you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Don’t be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor extortionists, will inherit God’s Kingdom"

As is Romans 1:26-27, "For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against natureLikewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due".

And 1 Timothy 1:10, "for the sexually immoral, homosexuals, slave traders, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching"

You cannot dismiss what Paul says, because you don't like it. The entire 66 Books of the Holy Bible are directly Inspired by God the Holy Spirit, in the Original Autographs, and therefore Infallible and Inerrant, as the Word of God to us humans.
 

2ndRateMind

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In Matthew 19:4-6, Jesus is very clear, "And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female. and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

And Jesus is quite correct, for most people, most of the time. But He still has nothing to say on the topic of homosexuals. I think you are reading into His words about the nature of marriage more than He actually said.

Best wishes, 2RM.
 
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2ndRateMind

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@2ndRateMind so you cannot defend your personal beliefs from the Bible? I thought so!

I make no secret of that, because I do not believe the Bible to be, as you put it, infallible and inerrant. Just a very old set of documents some of which are clearly obsolete. Why do you think I am at all interested, then, in trying to reconcile my own beliefs with those of ancient scribes?

Best wishes, 2RM.