What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God

[Mr E]

Let’s not allow anyone to convince us that an apple is an orange.

Let’s also make sure we’re holding on to an apple when someone tells us we’re holding on to an orange, thinking it to be an apple.

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. Either that or he’s a fool.

I was thinking about a false assertion someone made about me this morning while I was waiting in the school carpool line to drop off my grandson: If I say something which a person hearing it isn’t persuaded is true, then they shouldn’t believe it.

Apples and oranges again....

I find it comical to some degree, but it's very prevalent here on the forum. Many have the tendency to use the same words as others while applying different meanings. Your trinity dialogues are prime examples. Even traditional trinitarians toss the term about as if they have a clear definition and understanding- which in most cases they do not, or they do not agree on what it means, and they certainly differ with what you attempt to clarify... so in essence you are talking apples and oranges. One is holding an apple and calling it an apple, one an orange and calling it by that same name, and yet another is holding a pineapple and insisting it too is an apple, because it has 'apple' in it.

And rather than examining each of these perspectives to 'taste and see' the substance of each, people want to shun or shame, condemn or contain or censor views that differ from their own. "You're a JW! Satanic! Heretic!" --it's no different than the need to silence opposing voices that we see daily in politics and media. Anything that counters the 'orthodox' narrative is ridiculed or labeled in an attempt to dismiss or discredit the information --even if it's true! -because the narrative often cannot stand up to scrutiny. Religion is no different.

Watch out when the best they've got is to shout you down or shut you down. "Disinformation! Fake News!"

The parallels are stunning. Yet these people see counter-arguments as a threat to their narratives and agendas. They view things not as apples and oranges where one is different from another and equally good depending on one's preference- no. They see one as acceptable and the other not. They view one as something to hold up and the other to smash apart.

It's the old saying that if all you have in your toolbox is a hammer you'll treat everything as if it is a nail. It's not an endorsement of the versatility of hammers (not everything can be fixed with a hammer) -it's a repudiation of the handyman.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

I don't see you as trying to force your views.

Defending the truth and exposing heresy is not forcing views. It’s following the scriptural principle:

“…ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” (Jude 1:3)

Contend, not debate.

This is why Christianity is a mess this day. No one strives for truth. They just “express each other’s views” and rather get along with everyone then suffer persecution for the truth.

 

[Matthias]

The Holy Bible shapes my view.

It shapes mine too.

It has cleansed me of bias.

That’s good. Unfortunately, I can’t say the same about myself. I still occasionally find that I’m subconsciously holding a bias. Dialoging with others, or reading commentary on scripture, helps me to see that - every once in a while.

It seems that whenever I allow myself to think that I’ve got it made … I step on a banana peel.

I’m persuaded, but I keep an open mind and watch my step.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

I still occasionally find that I’m subconsciously holding a bias.

“…be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” (Romans 12:2)

“…be renewed in the spirit of your mind;” (Ephesians 4:23)

I’m subconsciously holding a bias.

reading commentary on scripture, helps me to see that, every once in a while.

There’s the problem.

A commentary should never be the source of revelation or correction.

Never.

The Bible alone should do this.

 

[Matthias]

“…be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” (Romans 12:2)

“…be renewed in the spirit of your mind;” (Ephesians 4:23)

Amen.

There’s the problem.

A commentary should never be the source of revelation or correction.

Never.

The Bible alone should do this.

This comment caused me to stop and think. (Thank you for that.)

If I adopt that posture then how will God work through others to help me?

Does God give us “preachers and teachers”? If so, for what purpose?

 

[farouk]

Sometimes reading through the entire chapter gives you a better understanding of the content.

@Heart2Soul Contextual reading is important, indeed. Sometimes ppl reel off quotes of individual verses - which can be good - but where in a passage they occur is also significant.

 

[farouk]

“…be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” (Romans 12:2)

“…be renewed in the spirit of your mind;” (Ephesians 4:23)





There’s the problem.

A commentary should never be the source of revelation or correction.

Never.

The Bible alone should do this.

Good points.

Good to pray before studying the Word; this is an acknowledgment that we need light from the Holy Spirit in order truly to understand the Word properly.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

If I adopt that posture then how will God work through others to help me?

Others should direct you to the word of God. They should use the words of God in the holy scriptures.

They shouldn’t comment with their opinions on what the Bible says. Nor point you to other men’s commentaries.

“That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word” (Ephesians 5:26)

We help each other out by the word of God, not by our own thoughts and opinions of the word.

This is what mostly happens on these forums, lots of opinions and teachings of men.

 

[Mr E]

The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

What you describe as the "Word" of God and being His plan or purpose- what the Greek calls 'logos' and from which we get the idea of logic- it is His 'reasoning' that Jesus embodied. Another way to think of 'reasoning' and 'logos' is not as the mere "word" rather it is the organization of thought- as if you were going to give a speech and you were determining the order of things -- and the way of explaining concepts, making the content deliverable and understandable. Does that make sense?

That's what was "in" Jesus. It was that 'spirit' that descended upon him and that 'logos' that was in him that he went about teaching.

“My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me."

“For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

Sure to ruffle feathers, but it is the same "Word" that came to numerous prophets who then conveyed those messages to us as recorded throughout scripture. Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Samuel, Isaiah..... "The word of the LORD came unto me and....."

It's His word-- His way of making Himself known to us.

 

[RLT63]

Thank you for your very kind words.

My personal philosophy on debating is that it is a lose-lose proposition for the debaters. When we take a debate posture we dig in our heels, harden our hearts, close our eyes and stop up our ears. We become invested in defeating our partner rather than loving our partner. It’s too easily turned into waging verbal warfare.

You may not agree with that, and it’s fine if you don’t. It’s my perspective from having been directly involved in debating at one time (I’ve given you insight about what my mind was like in that arena) and I’ve attended or watched more debates carried out by others than I can put an accurate number on at the moment.

I will still occasionally watch a debate online but I haven’t attended one in person in the past 15 years or so. It never fails to grieve my spirit when I do.

What I find far more productive is simply dialoging with people. I’m not trying to defeat - (Crush. Kill. Destroy.) - control, or manipulate anyone. I’m trying to reason with them and want them to reason with me. I find that approach mutually beneficial. I’m treating people the way I would like people to treat me.

Debate entrenches us. Dialog frees us to move, if persuaded.

I agree. We are rarely changing anyone's mind and just making ourselves feel better about our own views most of the time. But it requires doing research and I learn from that so in that way I benefit. I also learn a lot about how others believe.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

We are rarely changing anyone's mind

True.

and just making ourselves feel better about our own views most of the time

No way.

I feel very sorrowful after contending for the truth.

Absolutely sorrowful!

My flesh so desperately wants to get along with everyone.

It grieves me much.

I rather not do it.

But like the prophet said:

“…I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me. For since I spake, I cried out, I cried violence and spoil; because the word of the LORD was made a reproach unto me, and a derision, daily. Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay. For I heard the defaming of many, fear on every side. Report, say they, and we will report it. All my familiars watched for my halting, saying, Peradventure he will be enticed, and we shall prevail against him, and we shall take our revenge on him.” (Jeremiah 20:7-10)

But I cannot resist the Spirit in defending the truth.

“If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?” (Matthew 10:25)

 

[RLT63]

Amen.



This comment caused me to stop and think. (Thank you for that.)

If I adopt that posture then how will God work through others to help me?

Does God give us “preachers and teachers”? If so, for what purpose?

I have an hour and 15 minute drive to work. I listened to Chuck Missler's commentary on the Bible and learned a lot from that, now I listen to sermons. They are more lively and after I go through my collection I can go back and hear a sermon again and still learn something new.

 

[farouk]

I agree. We are rarely changing anyone's mind and just making ourselves feel better about our own views most of the time. But it requires doing research and I learn from that so in that way I benefit. I also learn a lot about how others believe.

Hi @RLT63 A very significant part of the question is: Are we ourselves feeding on and enjoying the Word and its meaning and truths as they are in Christ?

 

[farouk]

True.



No way.

I feel very sorrowful after contending for the truth.

Absolutely sorrowful!

My flesh so desperately wants to get along with everyone.

It grieves me much.

I rather not do it.

But like the prophet said:

“…I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me. For since I spake, I cried out, I cried violence and spoil; because the word of the LORD was made a reproach unto me, and a derision, daily. Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay. For I heard the defaming of many, fear on every side. Report, say they, and we will report it. All my familiars watched for my halting, saying, Peradventure he will be enticed, and we shall prevail against him, and we shall take our revenge on him.” (Jeremiah 20:7-10)

But I cannot resist the Spirit in defending the truth.

“If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?” (Matthew 10:25)

@Michiah-Imla Apt quote there from Jeremiah...

 

[Matthias]

Others should direct you to the word of God. They should use the words of God in the holy scriptures.

They shouldn’t comment with their opinions on what the Bible says. Nor point you to other men’s commentaries.

So are you saying that “preachers and teachers” should read the Bible to us?

“That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word” (Ephesians 5:26)

Yes.

We help each other out by the word of God, not by our own thoughts and opinions of the word.

It sounds to me like that’s only true if we turn ourselves into audio Bibles in our conversation with one another.

This is what mostly happens on these forums, lots of opinions and teachings of men.

Paul commended the Bereans. I understand that he did so because they listened to the message that was delivered - which I don’t think of as an audio Bible recording - and confirmed whether or not what they heard presented to them was consistent with what is taught in scripture by searching the scriptures.

Please give me your feedback on this.

 

[RLT63]

Hi @RLT63 A very significant part of the question is: Are we ourselves feeding on and enjoying the Word and its meaning and truths as they are in Christ?

Yes that is the important part.

 

[farouk]

Yes that is the important part.

Indeed so...........

 

[Michiah-Imla]

I have an hour and 15 minute drive to work. I listened to Chuck Missler's commentary on the Bible and learned a lot from that

No wonder you can’t be corrected with scripture! Stop listening to that garbage!

I have Ephesians, portions of Romans, Titus, 2 Thessalonians, and 1-2 Peter on a CD in my car that’s on repeat.

And when I’m not driving I’m reading scripture any chance I get!

That’s how my flesh’s desire is kept in check! That’s how I’m protected from the likes of Chuck Missler and friends.

 

[farouk]

No wonder you can’t be corrected with scripture! Stop listening to that garbage!

I have Ephesians, portions of Romans, Titus, 2 Thessalonians, and 1-2 Peter on a CD in my car that’s on repeat.

And when I’m not driving I’m reading scripture any chance I get!

That’s how my flesh’s desire is kept in check! That’s how I’m protected from the likes of Chuck Missler and friends.

I'm not familiar with Chuck Missler; my 'like' was referring to the idea of using time while traveling to be in the Word.....

 

[Michiah-Imla]

@RLT63 must be ignoring me.