What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God

[Kermos]

@Peterlag

The following paragraphs with links illustrate your folly based on your writings.

You wickedly change the Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) into the word of Peterlag "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I was just God's thought" (Peterlag's heart thought).

Your improper "Jesus had to come as God" reframed into the Biblical "Jesus came as Man" (Hebrews 2:16-18) is important. The illuminating Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is truly God and Jesus is truly Man (Philippians 2:6-8).

@Michiah-Imla and @Aunty Jane and @Peterlag, when you convey that John 8:58 would be correctly translated as "I am he", then your fool linguistics show in extreme clarity. YOU MIX IN THIRD PERSON WHERE THE THIRD PERSON IS NOT REPRESENTED IN THE SOURCE GREEK, so you try to smash your fistful of wickedness into Jesus' mouth.


"I AM" in John 8:58 is equivalent to "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 according to NT/Septuagint Greek.


It is necessary to believe that Jesus is God in order to enter Heaven because Lord Jesus says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24) - and there's more about "I AM" and much Apostolic testimony that Jesus is God in this linked post. Jesus is YHWH God according to consistent Apostolic testimony, yet you deny Jesus because you deny consistent Apostolic testimony about Jesus being God.

You're question deceitfully starts with a non-sequitor because NO scripture states Jesus was "made". God says Jesus is God, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom" (Hebrews 1:8). THE WORD OF GOD DECLARES THAT JESUS IS TRULY MAN AND THAT JESUS IS TRULY GOD! You are a deceiver who thinks Jesus is not God, so you are a disbeliever preaching everlasting punishment unto yourself and your followers (Matthew 25:46).

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Word of God proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) and the Word of God says "I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever" (1 Chronicles 17:14), so according to the Word, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past and will exist in eternity future which means the Word is uncreated thus the Word proclaims that the Word is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past and future (Isaiah 45:5).

Jesus is God with us per the Apostle (Matthew 1:23), so Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8)!

 

[GEN2REV]

The jews killed Jesus so their beliefs are flawed to say the least..
Anyway Jesus made it clear he wasn't Moses-
"..for he wrote about me" (John 5:46)

Hey Dropship.

Please take a moment to cast your vote:
Should CB allow Anti-Christ threads?

Thanks and God bless.

 

[Dropship]

Hey Dropship.

Please take a moment to cast your vote:
Should CB allow Anti-Christ threads?

I'm not sure what your interpretation of "anti-christ" is, so I can't vote..
If it's to do with Jesus, we know he was the SON of God, not God himself, as proven by these words of his-
“Why do you call me good?..No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19)
"Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)
"I say nothing of my own accord, I only say what my father tells me to say.." (John 12:49)
"I am going to the Father, for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28)

 

[GEN2REV]

I'm not sure what your interpretation of "anti-christ" is, so I can't vote..

I made it all clear in the intro to the thread so now you can vote.

Here's a shortcut so as not to further inconvenience you: Should CB allow Anti-Christ threads?

Cast your vote.

God bless.

 

[Peterlag]

Hello Gospel Believer,

@Peterlag does not believe that Jesus is I AM.

All people, such as you Peterlag, that deny the Spiritually true bond between the Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) and "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) passages effectively deny Jesus Christ thus all such people are under the wrath of God for the Word of God says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

I believe I put some data out already on John 8:58. I'm sure it's somewhere on here.

 

[Peterlag]

It's important to understand that the Bible was not written in a vacuum, but was recorded in the context of a culture and was understood by those who lived in that culture. Sometimes verses that seem superfluous to us were meaningful to the reader of the time because they were well aware of the culture and beliefs being propounded by those around them. In the first century, there were many competing beliefs in the world (and unfortunately, erroneous beliefs in Christendom) that were confusing believers about the identities of God and Christ. For centuries before Christ, and at the time the New Testament was written, the irrational beliefs about the gods of Greece had been handed down. This body of religious information was known by the word "muthos" which we today call "myths" or "mythology." This muthos, these myths, were often irrational, mystical and beyond understanding or explanation. The more familiar one is with the Greek myths, the better we will understand our emphasis on their irrationality. If one is unfamiliar with them, it would be valuable to read a little on the subject. Greek mythology is an important part of the cultural background of the New Testament.

The myths were often incomprehensible, but nevertheless, they had been widely accepted as the "revelation of the gods." The pervasiveness of the muthos in the Greco-Roman world of the New Testament can be seen sticking up out of the New Testament like the tip of an iceberg above the water. When Paul and Barnabas healed a cripple in Lystra, the people assumed that the gods had come down in human form, and the priest of Zeus came to offer sacrifices to them. While Paul was in Athens, he became disturbed because of the large number of idols there that were statues to the various gods. In Ephesus, Paul's teaching actually started a riot. When some of the locals realized that if his doctrine spread, "... the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be discredited, and the goddess herself, who is worshiped throughout the province of Asia and the world, will be robbed of her divine majesty" (Acts 19:27). There are many other examples that show that there was a muthos, i.e., a body of religious knowledge that was in large part incomprehensible to the human mind, firmly established in the minds of some of the common people in New Testament times.

Starting several centuries before Christ, certain Greek philosophers worked to replace the muthos with what they called the logos, a reasonable and rational explanation of reality. It's appropriate that in the writing of the New Testament, God used the word logos, not muthos, to describe His wisdom, reason, and plan. God has not come to us in mystical experiences and irrational beliefs that cannot be understood; rather He reveals Himself in ways that can be rationally understood and persuasively argued. In addition to the cultural context that accepted the myths, at the time John was written, a belief system called Gnosticism was taking root in Christianity. Gnosticism had many ideas and words that are strange and confusing to us today, and so at the risk of oversimplifying, we will describe a few basic tenets of Gnosticism as simply as we can.

Gnosticism took many forms, but generally Gnostics taught that there was a supreme and unknowable Being, which they designated as the "Monad." The Monad produced various gods, who in turn produced other gods (these gods were called by different names, in part because of their power or position). One of these gods, called the "Demiurge" created the earth and then ruled over it as an angry, evil and jealous god. This evil god, Gnostics believed, was the god of the Old Testament, called Elohim. The Monad sent another god, "Christ" to bring special gnosis (knowledge) to mankind and free them from the influence of the evil Elohim. Thus, a Gnostic Christian would agree that Elohim created the heavens and earth, but he would not agree that He was the supreme God. Most Gnostics would also state that Elohim and Christ were at cross-purposes with each other. This is why it was so important for John 1:1 to say that the logos was with God, which at first glance seems to be a totally unnecessary statement.

 

[Kermos]

I believe I put some data out already on John 8:58. I'm sure it's somewhere on here.

Oh, I took the time to read your posts, and the following paragraphs with links illustrate your folly based on your posts.

You wickedly change the Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) into the word of Peterlag "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I was just God's thought" (Peterlag's heart thought).

Your improper "Jesus had to come as God" reframed into the Biblical "Jesus came as Man" (Hebrews 2:16-18) is important. The illuminating Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is truly God and Jesus is truly Man (Philippians 2:6-8).

@Michiah-Imla and @Aunty Jane and @Peterlag, when you convey that John 8:58 would be correctly translated as "I am he", then your fool linguistics show in extreme clarity. YOU MIX IN THIRD PERSON WHERE THE THIRD PERSON IS NOT REPRESENTED IN THE SOURCE GREEK, so you try to smash your fistful of wickedness into Jesus' mouth.


"I AM" in John 8:58 is equivalent to "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 according to NT/Septuagint Greek.


It is necessary to believe that Jesus is God in order to enter Heaven because Lord Jesus says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24) - and there's more about "I AM" and much Apostolic testimony that Jesus is God in this linked post. Jesus is YHWH God according to consistent Apostolic testimony, yet you deny Jesus because you deny consistent Apostolic testimony about Jesus being God.

You're question deceitfully starts with a non-sequitor because NO scripture states Jesus was "made". God says Jesus is God, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom" (Hebrews 1:8). THE WORD OF GOD DECLARES THAT JESUS IS TRULY MAN AND THAT JESUS IS TRULY GOD! You are a deceiver who thinks Jesus is not God, so you are a disbeliever preaching everlasting punishment unto yourself and your followers (Matthew 25:46).

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Word of God proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) and the Word of God says "I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever" (1 Chronicles 17:14), so according to the Word, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past and will exist in eternity future which means the Word is uncreated thus the Word proclaims that the Word is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past and future (Isaiah 45:5).

Jesus is God with us per the Apostle (Matthew 1:23), so Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8)!

 

[Peterlag]

The opening of the gospel of John is a wonderful expression of God's love. God "...wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (Timothy 2:4). He authored the opening of John in such a way that it reveals the truth about Him and His plan for all of mankind and, at the same time, refutes Gnostic teaching. It says that from the beginning there was the logos (the reason, plan, power) which was with God. There was not another "god" existing with God, especially not a god opposed to God. Furthermore, God's plan was like God; it was divine. God's plan became flesh when God impregnated Mary. There are elements of John 1:1 and other phrases in the introduction of John that not only refer back in time to God's work in the original creation, but also foreshadow the work of Christ in the new administration and the new creation. Noted Bible commentator F.F. Bruce argues for this interpretation:

It is not by accident that the Gospel begins with the same phrase as the book of Genesis. In Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning" introduces the story of the old creation; here it introduces the story of the new creation. In both works of creation the agent is the Word of God. The Racovian Catechism, one of the great doctrinal works of the Unitarian movement of the 14th and 15th centuries, states that the word "beginning" in John 1:1 refers to the beginning of the new dispensation and thus is similar to Mark 1:1, which starts, "The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ..."

In the cited passage (John 1:1) wherein the Word is said to have been in the beginning, there is no reference to an antecedent eternity, without commencement; because mention is made here of a beginning, which is opposed to that eternity. But the word beginning, used absolutely, is to be understood of the subject matter under consideration. Thus, Daniel 8:1 (ASV), "In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared to me, even unto me, Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first." John 15:27 (ASV), "And ye also shall bear witness because ye have been with me from the beginning." John 16:4, "...these things I said not unto you from the beginning because I was with you. And Acts 11:15 (ASV), "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, even as on us at the beginning." As then the matter of which John is treating is the gospel, or the things transacted under the gospel, nothing else ought to be understood here besides the beginning of the gospel; a matter clearly known to the Christians whom he addressed, namely the advent and preaching of John the Baptist, according to the testimony of all the evangelists [i.e., Matthew, Mark Luke and John], each of whom begins his history with the coming and preaching of the Baptist. Mark indeed (Chapter 1:1) expressly states that this was the beginning of the gospel. In like manner, John himself employs the word beginning, placed thus absolutely, in the introduction to his First Epistle, at which beginning he uses the same term (logos) Word, as if he meant to be his own interpreter ["That which is from the beginning... concerning the Word (logos) of life." 1 John 1:1].

While we do not agree with the Catechism that the only meaning of beginning in John 1:1 is the beginning of the new creation, we certainly see how the word beginning is a double entendre. In the context of the new creation, then, "the Word" is the plan or purpose according to which God is restoring His creation. To fully understand any passage of Scripture, it's imperative to study the context. To fully understand John 1:1, the rest of the chapter needs to be understood as well, and the rest of the chapter adds more understanding to John 1:1.

In closing I would like to say that I put this 6 part teaching together that I first shared here in the last 6 days from notes I have had on John 1:1 since 2005 with the goal in mind of answering the many good people on this Christian site who keep asking if I ever read John 1:1. And some of them included that I should read it again and more carefully. In responding I would like to say yes, I have read John 1:1, and I have read it very carefully.

 

[Peterlag]

Hello Gospel Believer,

@Peterlag does not believe that Jesus is I AM.

All people, such as you Peterlag, that deny the Spiritually true bond between the Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) and "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) passages effectively deny Jesus Christ thus all such people are under the wrath of God for the Word of God says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

A note on John 8:58... "I am"

Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the "I am" (the Yahweh of the Old Testament) so he must be God. This is just not the case. Saying "I am" does not make a person God. The man born blind that Jesus healed was not claiming to be God, and he said "I am the man" and the Greek reads exactly like the statement Jesus made when he said "I am." The fact that the exact same phrase is translated two different ways, one as "I am" and the other as "I am the man" (John 9:9) is one reason it's hard for the average Christian to get the truth from just reading the Bible as it has been translated into English. Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as "I am" (Acts 26:29). Thus, we conclude that saying "I am" did not make Paul, the man born blind or Christ into God. C.K. Barrett writes:

Ego eimi ["I am"] does not identify Jesus with God, but it does draw attention to him in the strongest possible terms. "I am the one... the one you must look at, and listen to, if you would know God."

The phrase "I am" occurs many other times in the New Testament, and is often translated as "I am he" or some equivalent ("I am he"... Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19, 18:5,6 and 8. "it is I"... Matthew 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20. "...I am the one I claim to be..." John 8:24 and 28). It's obvious that these translations are quite correct, and it's interesting that the phrase is translated as "I am" only in John 8:58. If the phrase in John 8:58 were translated "I am he" or "I am the one" like all the others, it would be easier to see that Christ was speaking of himself as the Messiah of God (as indeed he was) spoken of throughout the Old Testament.

The point is this: "I am" was a common way of designating oneself, and it did not mean you were claiming to be God. The argument is made that because Jesus was "before" Abraham, Jesus must have been God. There is no question that Jesus figuratively "existed" in Abraham's time. However, he did not actually physically exist as a person; rather he "existed" in the mind of God as God's plan for the redemption of man. A careful reading of the context of the verse shows that Jesus was speaking of "existing" in God's foreknowledge. Verse 56... "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." This verse says that Abraham "saw" the Day of Christ, which is normally considered by theologians to be the day when Christ conquers the earth and sets up his kingdom.

That would fit with what the book of Hebrews says about Abraham: "For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God" (Hebrews 11:10). Abraham looked for a city that is still in the future, yet the Bible says Abraham "saw" it. In what sense could Abraham have seen something that was future? Abraham "saw" the Day of Christ because God told him it was coming, and Abraham "saw" it by faith. Although Abraham saw the Day of Christ by faith, that day existed in the mind of God long before Abraham. Thus, in the context of God's plan existing from the beginning, Christ certainly was 'before" Abraham. Christ was the plan of God for man's redemption long before Abraham lived.

In order for the Trinitarian argument that Jesus is the "I am" in John 8:58 that would make him God, his statement must be equivalent with God's "I am" statement in Exodus 3:14. However, the two statements are very different. While the Greek phrase in John does mean "I am" the Hebrew phrase in Exodus actually means "to be" or "to become." In other words God is saying "I will be what I will be." Thus, "I am" in Exodus is actually a mistranslation of the Hebrew text, so the fact that Jesus said "I am" did not make him God.

 

[Kermos]

A note on John 8:58... "I am"

Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the "I am" (the Yahweh of the Old Testament) so he must be God. This is just not the case. Saying "I am" does not make a person God. The man born blind that Jesus healed was not claiming to be God, and he said "I am the man" and the Greek reads exactly like the statement Jesus made when he said "I am." The fact that the exact same phrase is translated two different ways, one as "I am" and the other as "I am the man" (John 9:9) is one reason it's hard for the average Christian to get the truth from just reading the Bible as it has been translated into English. Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as "I am" (Acts 26:29). Thus, we conclude that saying "I am" did not make Paul, the man born blind or Christ into God. C.K. Barrett writes:

Ego eimi ["I am"] does not identify Jesus with God, but it does draw attention to him in the strongest possible terms. "I am the one... the one you must look at, and listen to, if you would know God."

The phrase "I am" occurs many other times in the New Testament, and is often translated as "I am he" or some equivalent ("I am he"... Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19, 18:5,6 and 8. "it is I"... Matthew 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20. "...I am the one I claim to be..." John 8:24 and 28). It's obvious that these translations are quite correct, and it's interesting that the phrase is translated as "I am" only in John 8:58. If the phrase in John 8:58 were translated "I am he" or "I am the one" like all the others, it would be easier to see that Christ was speaking of himself as the Messiah of God (as indeed he was) spoken of throughout the Old Testament.

The point is this: "I am" was a common way of designating oneself, and it did not mean you were claiming to be God. The argument is made that because Jesus was "before" Abraham, Jesus must have been God. There is no question that Jesus figuratively "existed" in Abraham's time. However, he did not actually physically exist as a person; rather he "existed" in the mind of God as God's plan for the redemption of man. A careful reading of the context of the verse shows that Jesus was speaking of "existing" in God's foreknowledge. Verse 56... "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." This verse says that Abraham "saw" the Day of Christ, which is normally considered by theologians to be the day when Christ conquers the earth and sets up his kingdom.

That would fit with what the book of Hebrews says about Abraham: "For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God" (Hebrews 11:10). Abraham looked for a city that is still in the future, yet the Bible says Abraham "saw" it. In what sense could Abraham have seen something that was future? Abraham "saw" the Day of Christ because God told him it was coming, and Abraham "saw" it by faith. Although Abraham saw the Day of Christ by faith, that day existed in the mind of God long before Abraham. Thus, in the context of God's plan existing from the beginning, Christ certainly was 'before" Abraham. Christ was the plan of God for man's redemption long before Abraham lived.

In order for the Trinitarian argument that Jesus is the "I am" in John 8:58 that would make him God, his statement must be equivalent with God's "I am" statement in Exodus 3:14. However, the two statements are very different. While the Greek phrase in John does mean "I am" the Hebrew phrase in Exodus actually means "to be" or "to become." In other words God is saying "I will be what I will be." Thus, "I am" in Exodus is actually a mistranslation of the Hebrew text, so the fact that Jesus said "I am" did not make him God.

Let's consider how Jesus' words in John 8:58 proclaims that Jesus is YHWH God without any further mention of Exodus 3:14 in this post.

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

So, one week before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM ring true.

And, two weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM resound true.

And, three weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM are true.

And, the minute prior to the minute any of all the angels were created Jesus' words of I AM trumpet true.

And, the week prior to any of the angels being created Jesus' words of I AM harmonize truthfully.

No matter when in time one seeks before Abraham was born, Jesus Christ's words of I AM remain absolutely true.

Going back in time, Jesus is always I AM, never created, He is always I AM.

Going back in time, anytime in all eternity because Jesus says "before Abraham" with no exceptions, Jesus Being.

Behold, Going back in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time.

Jesus says "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

The angel Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Behold, Going forward in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going forward in time.

GOD is exclusively the One that IS EVERLASTING going back in time and going forward in time.

God is everlasting.

Jesus is everlasting.

No one except God is everlasting.

Everlasting YHWH God is Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8, see also Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13), thus says He Who is coming on the clouds!

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.

 

[Kermos]

A note on John 8:58... "I am"

Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the "I am" (the Yahweh of the Old Testament) so he must be God. This is just not the case. Saying "I am" does not make a person God. The man born blind that Jesus healed was not claiming to be God, and he said "I am the man" and the Greek reads exactly like the statement Jesus made when he said "I am." The fact that the exact same phrase is translated two different ways, one as "I am" and the other as "I am the man" (John 9:9) is one reason it's hard for the average Christian to get the truth from just reading the Bible as it has been translated into English. Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as "I am" (Acts 26:29). Thus, we conclude that saying "I am" did not make Paul, the man born blind or Christ into God. C.K. Barrett writes:

Ego eimi ["I am"] does not identify Jesus with God, but it does draw attention to him in the strongest possible terms. "I am the one... the one you must look at, and listen to, if you would know God."

The phrase "I am" occurs many other times in the New Testament, and is often translated as "I am he" or some equivalent ("I am he"... Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19, 18:5,6 and 8. "it is I"... Matthew 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20. "...I am the one I claim to be..." John 8:24 and 28). It's obvious that these translations are quite correct, and it's interesting that the phrase is translated as "I am" only in John 8:58. If the phrase in John 8:58 were translated "I am he" or "I am the one" like all the others, it would be easier to see that Christ was speaking of himself as the Messiah of God (as indeed he was) spoken of throughout the Old Testament.

The point is this: "I am" was a common way of designating oneself, and it did not mean you were claiming to be God. The argument is made that because Jesus was "before" Abraham, Jesus must have been God. There is no question that Jesus figuratively "existed" in Abraham's time. However, he did not actually physically exist as a person; rather he "existed" in the mind of God as God's plan for the redemption of man. A careful reading of the context of the verse shows that Jesus was speaking of "existing" in God's foreknowledge. Verse 56... "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." This verse says that Abraham "saw" the Day of Christ, which is normally considered by theologians to be the day when Christ conquers the earth and sets up his kingdom.

That would fit with what the book of Hebrews says about Abraham: "For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God" (Hebrews 11:10). Abraham looked for a city that is still in the future, yet the Bible says Abraham "saw" it. In what sense could Abraham have seen something that was future? Abraham "saw" the Day of Christ because God told him it was coming, and Abraham "saw" it by faith. Although Abraham saw the Day of Christ by faith, that day existed in the mind of God long before Abraham. Thus, in the context of God's plan existing from the beginning, Christ certainly was 'before" Abraham. Christ was the plan of God for man's redemption long before Abraham lived.

In order for the Trinitarian argument that Jesus is the "I am" in John 8:58 that would make him God, his statement must be equivalent with God's "I am" statement in Exodus 3:14. However, the two statements are very different. While the Greek phrase in John does mean "I am" the Hebrew phrase in Exodus actually means "to be" or "to become." In other words God is saying "I will be what I will be." Thus, "I am" in Exodus is actually a mistranslation of the Hebrew text, so the fact that Jesus said "I am" did not make him God.

Jesus does not say "I am he" because that would mix the grammatical first person and third person in the original Greek where there is no third person (truly, "I AM" (ego eimi) is exclusively first person for both words).

In linguistic foolishness, you try to redefine grammatical rules.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Word of God proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) and the Word of God says "I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever" (1 Chronicles 17:14), so according to the Word, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past and will exist in eternity future which means the Word is uncreated thus the Word proclaims that the Word is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past and future (Isaiah 45:5).

Jesus is God with us per the Apostle (Matthew 1:23), so Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8)!

 

[Kermos]

A note on John 8:58... "I am"

Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the "I am" (the Yahweh of the Old Testament) so he must be God. This is just not the case. Saying "I am" does not make a person God. The man born blind that Jesus healed was not claiming to be God, and he said "I am the man" and the Greek reads exactly like the statement Jesus made when he said "I am." The fact that the exact same phrase is translated two different ways, one as "I am" and the other as "I am the man" (John 9:9) is one reason it's hard for the average Christian to get the truth from just reading the Bible as it has been translated into English. Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as "I am" (Acts 26:29). Thus, we conclude that saying "I am" did not make Paul, the man born blind or Christ into God. C.K. Barrett writes:

Ego eimi ["I am"] does not identify Jesus with God, but it does draw attention to him in the strongest possible terms. "I am the one... the one you must look at, and listen to, if you would know God."

The phrase "I am" occurs many other times in the New Testament, and is often translated as "I am he" or some equivalent ("I am he"... Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19, 18:5,6 and 8. "it is I"... Matthew 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20. "...I am the one I claim to be..." John 8:24 and 28). It's obvious that these translations are quite correct, and it's interesting that the phrase is translated as "I am" only in John 8:58. If the phrase in John 8:58 were translated "I am he" or "I am the one" like all the others, it would be easier to see that Christ was speaking of himself as the Messiah of God (as indeed he was) spoken of throughout the Old Testament.

The point is this: "I am" was a common way of designating oneself, and it did not mean you were claiming to be God. The argument is made that because Jesus was "before" Abraham, Jesus must have been God. There is no question that Jesus figuratively "existed" in Abraham's time. However, he did not actually physically exist as a person; rather he "existed" in the mind of God as God's plan for the redemption of man. A careful reading of the context of the verse shows that Jesus was speaking of "existing" in God's foreknowledge. Verse 56... "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." This verse says that Abraham "saw" the Day of Christ, which is normally considered by theologians to be the day when Christ conquers the earth and sets up his kingdom.

That would fit with what the book of Hebrews says about Abraham: "For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God" (Hebrews 11:10). Abraham looked for a city that is still in the future, yet the Bible says Abraham "saw" it. In what sense could Abraham have seen something that was future? Abraham "saw" the Day of Christ because God told him it was coming, and Abraham "saw" it by faith. Although Abraham saw the Day of Christ by faith, that day existed in the mind of God long before Abraham. Thus, in the context of God's plan existing from the beginning, Christ certainly was 'before" Abraham. Christ was the plan of God for man's redemption long before Abraham lived.

In order for the Trinitarian argument that Jesus is the "I am" in John 8:58 that would make him God, his statement must be equivalent with God's "I am" statement in Exodus 3:14. However, the two statements are very different. While the Greek phrase in John does mean "I am" the Hebrew phrase in Exodus actually means "to be" or "to become." In other words God is saying "I will be what I will be." Thus, "I am" in Exodus is actually a mistranslation of the Hebrew text, so the fact that Jesus said "I am" did not make him God.

"I AM" (ego eimi) in John 8:58 is equivalent to "I AM" (ego eimi) in Exodus 3:14 according to NT/Septuagint Greek.

People are recorded in Scripture saying "I am", such as the man blind from birth (John 9:1) unto whom Jesus gave sight (John 9:2-7), the man about whom the people were saying things like "Is not this the one who used to sit and beg" (John 9:8) and "This is he" and "No, but he is like him" (John 9:9), and the man previously seen by some others as a beggar repeatedly said "I am the one" (John 9:9).

The beggar in John 9 claims not perpetual existence prior to Abraham; on the other hand, Lord Jesus does proclaim the Jesus' perpetual existence as solid with "I AM" prior to Abraham.

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ declares His perpetual existence prior to Abraham with "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Nobody recorded in Scripture makes the declaration that Jesus makes about Himself.

Now it's time to dispel with your delusion about Greek.

In Greek, the complete John 8:58 reads:

Εἴπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγώ εἰμι.

IN JOHN 8:58, "ἐγώ εἰμι" TRANSLATES ACCURATELY TO "I AM".

In the Septuagint, the complete Exodus 3:14 reads:

καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν Ἐγώ εἰµι ὁ ὤν· καὶ εἶπεν Οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ Ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν µε πρὸς ὑµᾶς.

IN EXODUS 3:14, "Ἐγώ εἰµι" TRANSLATES ACCURATELY TO "I AM".

The definitions for these two Greek words:

Strong's Greek: 1473. ἐγώ (egó) -- I (only expressed when emphatic)

Strong's Greek: 1510. εἰμί (eimi) -- I exist, I am

The "Ἐγώ εἰµι" in Exodus 3:14 matches the "ἐγώ εἰμι" in John 8:58.

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the One" (Exodus 3:14, Ἐγώ εἰµι ὁ ὤν" in Septuagint), YHWH God.

The context of Jesus' words are absolutely Spiritually clear that He is YHWH God as previously demonstrated.

"My Lord and my God" testified the Apostle Thomas to Jesus Christ (John 20:28), so Apostolic teaching is that Jesus Christ is YHWH God.

Your thoughts of "Ego eimi ["I am"] does not identify Jesus with God" are proven to be deception.

Ego eimi (I AM) most certainly identifies Jesus is YHWH God.

 

[Peterlag]

"I AM" (ego eimi) in John 8:58 is equivalent to "I AM" (ego eimi) in Exodus 3:14 according to NT/Septuagint Greek.

People are recorded in Scripture saying "I am", such as the man blind from birth (John 9:1) unto whom Jesus gave sight (John 9:2-7), the man about whom the people were saying things like "Is not this the one who used to sit and beg" (John 9:8) and "This is he" and "No, but he is like him" (John 9:9), and the man previously seen by some others as a beggar repeatedly said "I am the one" (John 9:9).

The beggar in John 9 claims not perpetual existence prior to Abraham; on the other hand, Lord Jesus does proclaim the Jesus' perpetual existence as solid with "I AM" prior to Abraham.

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ declares His perpetual existence prior to Abraham with "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Nobody recorded in Scripture makes the declaration that Jesus makes about Himself.

Now it's time to dispel with your delusion about Greek.

In Greek, the complete John 8:58 reads:

Εἴπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγώ εἰμι.

IN JOHN 8:58, "ἐγώ εἰμι" TRANSLATES ACCURATELY TO "I AM".

In the Septuagint, the complete Exodus 3:14 reads:

καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν Ἐγώ εἰµι ὁ ὤν· καὶ εἶπεν Οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ Ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν µε πρὸς ὑµᾶς.

IN EXODUS 3:14, "Ἐγώ εἰµι" TRANSLATES ACCURATELY TO "I AM".

The definitions for these two Greek words:

Strong's Greek: 1473. ἐγώ (egó) -- I (only expressed when emphatic)

Strong's Greek: 1510. εἰμί (eimi) -- I exist, I am

The "Ἐγώ εἰµι" in Exodus 3:14 matches the "ἐγώ εἰμι" in John 8:58.

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the One" (Exodus 3:14, Ἐγώ εἰµι ὁ ὤν" in Septuagint), YHWH God.

The context of Jesus' words are absolutely Spiritually clear that He is YHWH God as previously demonstrated.

"My Lord and my God" testified the Apostle Thomas to Jesus Christ (John 20:28), so Apostolic teaching is that Jesus Christ is YHWH God.

Your thoughts of "Ego eimi ["I am"] does not identify Jesus with God" are proven to be deception.

Ego eimi (I AM) most certainly identifies Jesus is YHWH God.

Here's how 22 other Bibles translate Exodus 3:14...

New International Version
God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM.

New Living Translation
God replied to Moses, I Am Who I Am.

English Standard Version
God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM.

Berean Study Bible
God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM.

New American Standard Bible
And God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM;

NASB 1995
God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM;

NASB 1977
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM;

Amplified Bible
God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM;

Christian Standard Bible
God replied to Moses, I AM WHO I AM.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
God replied to Moses, I AM WHO I AM.

Good News Translation
God said, I am who I am.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
God answered Moses, I Am Who I Am.

International Standard Version
God replied to Moses, I AM WHO I AM,

New King James Version
And God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM.

World English Bible
God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM,

Coverdale Bible of 1535
God saide vnto Moses: I wyl be what I wyll be.

Tyndale Bible of 1526
Then sayde God vnto Moses: I will be what I will be:

Literal Standard Version
And God says to Moses, I AM THAT WHICH I AM.

Young's Literal Translation
And God saith unto Moses, I AM THAT WHICH I AM'

Smith's Literal Translation
And God will say to Moses, I shall be that I shall be:

Douay-Rheims Bible
God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM.

Peshitta Holy Bible Translated
And God said to Moshe: I AM what I AM,

 

[Kermos]

Here's how 22 other Bibles translate Exodus 3:14...

New International Version
God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM.

New Living Translation
God replied to Moses, I Am Who I Am.

English Standard Version
God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM.

Berean Study Bible
God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM.

New American Standard Bible
And God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM;

NASB 1995
God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM;

NASB 1977
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM;

Amplified Bible
God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM;

Christian Standard Bible
God replied to Moses, I AM WHO I AM.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
God replied to Moses, I AM WHO I AM.

Good News Translation
God said, I am who I am.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
God answered Moses, I Am Who I Am.

International Standard Version
God replied to Moses, I AM WHO I AM,

New King James Version
And God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM.

World English Bible
God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM,

Coverdale Bible of 1535
God saide vnto Moses: I wyl be what I wyll be.

Tyndale Bible of 1526
Then sayde God vnto Moses: I will be what I will be:

Literal Standard Version
And God says to Moses, I AM THAT WHICH I AM.

Young's Literal Translation
And God saith unto Moses, I AM THAT WHICH I AM'

Smith's Literal Translation
And God will say to Moses, I shall be that I shall be:

Douay-Rheims Bible
God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM.

Peshitta Holy Bible Translated
And God said to Moshe: I AM what I AM,

Look at all those "I AM" phrases to which Lord Jesus refers to when the Word of God proclaims His concrete, absolute, firm, real, rock solid, and Spiritual existence with this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) and the Word of God says "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20), so according to the Word, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past and will exist in eternity future which means the Word is uncreated thus the Word proclaims that the Word is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past and future (Isaiah 45:5).

Jesus is God with us per the Apostle (Matthew 1:23), so Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8)!