What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God

[Matthias]

Here's some data on John 1:14 cause it keeps coming up...

The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

I don’t know about the trinitarians, the binitarians and the unitarians, but you’re dulling my hearing - and I’m sympathetic to what you’re saying!

Don’t stop saying it. Find another way, a thousand different ways, to say it.

That’s my advice. Do whatever you think best.

 

[Matthias]

Here's a bit on John 8:58...

The phrase "I am" occurs many other times in the New Testament and is often translated as "I am he" or I am the one I claim to be. Mark 11:36; Luke 21:8; John 13:19, 18:5, 6 and 8. "It is I" Matthew 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20. ...I am the one I clam to be..." John 8:24 and 28. It is obvious that these translations are quite correct and it is interesting that the phrase is translated as "I am" only in John 8:58. If the phrase in John 8:58 were translated "I am he" or "I am the one" like all the others, it would be easier to see that Christ was speaking of himself as the Messiah of God (as indeed he was) spoken of throughout the Old Testament.

A suggestion. Show us, your readers, that this isn’t just or only a non-trinitarian belief.

 

[Matthias]

Logic is not being used when no matter what I say they say that was when he was acting like a man.

They believe he is a man and that from the moment of his birth he acted like a man. They’re right, aren’t they? Let’s agree with them when they’re right.

Find and acknowledge as many points of agreement with them as possible.

Many trinitarians have told me that before speaking with me they thought there was a wall between us which precluded any agreement between us.

There is a wall that separates us - and I don’t want to give you the impression that it’s not a significant barrier - but it isn’t as tall and obstructing as we often imagine it to be.

Don’t minimize it, but don’t maximize it.

Maybe that will help us not to savage one another.

 

[Wrangler]

Logic is not being used when no matter what I say they say that was when he was acting like a man.

This is why I say trinitarianism is opposed at every turn by:

1. Definition
2. Logic
3. Language Usage
4. Explicit Scripture

'For us, there is one God the Father' is cannot be recognized as refuting the trinitiy. Indeed, the fact that trinity is not in Scripture, the word nor concept, has no implicit meaning to them. They seem to be of the opinion that all possible facets of analysis must support the trinity in some way. Our tiny human mind is too small to understand how. Yet, how the mystics know this cannot be examined and found to be wanting.

Even Jesus, himself, saying he has a God (our Father) who is the only true God means nothing. That's a special kind of illogicla devotion to idolatry right there.

 

[Windmillcharge]

See that's not the question: I know Jesus is God's son and the Bible says that. I'm asking why should Jesus be God. What benefit is there to have Jesus be God.

Only God can forgive sins, pay the penalty for sin, if Jesus was only human he would be just a good teacher not a saviour.

 

[BeyondET]

The Trinity is One God: The One Triune God. Christians believe that God is Triune: He has three persons. Completely beyond the limits of comprehension of our finite logic.



Yes, Jesus is eternally begotten of the Father. Again, our finite minds cannot comprehend the Trinity. It appears to be entirely beyond the limits of possibility. And to say that someone is a direct offspring of a parent (not adopted) is to say that that offspring is of the same exact substance of the person who begot it, gave it life. To say that Jesus is the Son of God is to say exactly that He is God.

Those who were alive at the time of Jesus understood this clearly. To hear Jesus say that God is my Father in Heaven and that the Father and I are one--he is declaring that He is God. There can be no misunderstanding of what he said at that time. It was very, very crystal clear to his direct audience. That is why they were going to stone him because if he was just a man then he would be speaking blasphemy.

When we say we are God's children we must specify that we are the adopted children of God. If we actually say that no, I'm really God's child that he literally gave birth to me as in a physical way like I came from the loins of God, then we are effectually saying that we are God too and that would be blasphemy. But that is what Jesus was saying all the time he was here on earth.

So you only have two choices to make according to God's revealed word: Was Jesus a blasphemer and not actually God? Or was he saying the truth and that He is God. There is no third option. Either he is a liar and committing a great disservice to humanity, some nutcase that needed to be put away and his death was good and deserved. Or, he is God. Those are the only choices you have. To make up another you are ignoring a large part of the New Testament so you are not actually making the choice from God's revealed word. You are making it from your own excerpts from the Bible.

Well some don't see it as three in One God but One God and Jesus being the Son but not equal to God that's what most trinitarian believe not in one God all three.

 

[BeyondET]

WOW that's a new one. Jesus was never even here.

Wow did I say never here, I see you like putting words in people's mouth.

 

[Wrangler]

Only God can forgive sins

You are aware that this is not true, right? God delegated this power to Jesus, who in turn, delegated it to the Apostles.

 

[Wrangler]

Only God can ... pay the penalty for sin

What Scripture verse says that?

 

[BeyondET]

Yep, that's a new one on me. Jesus was never even here.

So do you say the soul of Christ?. God didn't send the Sons soul.

Gal 4:6
And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”

 

[Wrangler]

if Jesus was only human he would be just a good teacher not a saviour.

Many people act as a savior. First responders, military allies, financial donors, etc. The difference is that God chose Jesus to be the agent of God saving us. It does not make Jesus God.

Please explain why it is that Scripture explicitly juxtaposes God with Jesus in many verses, e.g., Jesus is chosen by God, sent by God, is the son of God, told what to say by God, raised from the dead by God, knows less than God, sits at the right hand of God, is less than God IF Jesus were God?

Jesus said he has a God who is the only true God. Doesn't this mean anything to you in terms of the validity of doctrine of the trinity? What could one say to make one question the validity of this inherently contradictory dogma?

 

[BeyondET]

Many people act as a savior. First responders, military allies, financial donors, etc. The difference is that God chose Jesus to be the agent of God saving us. It does not make Jesus God.

Please explain why it is that Scripture explicitly juxtaposes God with Jesus in many verses, e.g., Jesus is chosen by God, sent by God, is the son of God, told what to say by God, raised from the dead by God, knows less than God, sits at the right hand of God, is less than God IF Jesus were God?

Jesus said he has a God who is the only true God. Doesn't this mean anything to you in terms of the validity of doctrine of the trinity? What could one say to make one question the validity of this inherently contradictory dogma?

The difference is God is not a boaster, God in the flesh would never say hey look at me I am God. So scripture will never imply it that way. But certainly there are examples in scripture not directly but more indirectly so it's not forced on anyone to believe.

 

[farouk]

So do you say the soul of Christ?. God didn't send the Sons soul.

Gal 4:6
And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”

@BeyondET Similar verse there in Romans 8 about 'Abba, Father'..........

 

[BeyondET]

@BeyondET Similar verse there in Romans 8 about 'Abba, Father'..........

Indeed my friend, and I think this be the verse mentioning Jesus Spirit?

Romans 8:9

 

[farouk]

Indeed my friend, and I think this be the verse mentioning Jesus Spirit?

Romans 8:9

@BeyondET I often use this verse to show how all true believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.....

 

[BeyondET]

@BeyondET I often use this verse to show how all true believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.....

Good example for sure, imo there was no reason for Jesus to have a soul and Spirit for He did everything of the Spirit.

 

[farouk]

Good example for sure, imo there was no reason for Jesus to have a soul and Spirit He did everything of the Spirit.

@BeyondET Interestingly in the King James it says, recording the words of the Lord Jesus in John 12.27: 'Now is my soul troubled...' (contemplating the Cross...)

 

[BeyondET]

@BeyondET Interestingly in the King James it says, recording the words of the Lord Jesus in John 12.27: 'Now is my soul troubled...' (contemplating the Cross...)

Yes that is figurative statement state of mind.

soul noun
2.
emotional or intellectual energy or intensity, especially as revealed in a work of art or an artistic performance.

 

[Phoneman777]

Again I can't find anything wrong with what you write above. So let's see if you can teach me something. What are the dead?

What remains when the Breath of Life returns to God and the body returns to the Earth: which is nothing.

What gets up at the return of Christ?

Depends if you're talking about the wicked or righteous.

And a bonus question...what got up when Jesus was raised from the dead since he got up with a different body.

Immortal flesh and bone body and God's Breath of Life.

Isn't it amazing Jesus, though fully God, will forever wear a flesh and bone body and forever be identified with the human race like no other order of being in the universe?

 

[Wrangler]

The difference is God is not a boaster, God in the flesh would never say hey look at me I am God.

It’s awe inspiring how you make things up as you go. YHWH clearly, directly and repeatedly started that he alone is God. Now all a sudden you invent 3 Scriptural fictions:

1. God, an eternal Spirit, ever was in the flesh, that died.
   
2. In such a state, YHWH would only hint at this truth out of not wanting to be accused of boasting.
   
3. One has to believe this in order to be saved.