What is the rule of faith for Christians?

[Ferris Bueller]

Still can't stop LYING, can you Ferris.

Just because you can't see the Catholic religion for the works gospel it is doesn't mean I can't.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

We have instant coffee, instant soup, instant pizza, and Ferris has instant justification!

Justification - the imputation of God's righteousness - occurs the instant a person believes the promise of God. Justification by works in the showing of that imputation of God's righteousness in a person's life occurs after that and develops over time. There is a space of several years (14?) between the time Abraham was justified by his faith in Genesis 15:6 and the time he was justified by his obedience in Genesis 22:12.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Paul also assures us that "Fauth" requires CHARITY or it is NOT faith (1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6).

There is no argument from me about that.
What is in contention is faith all by itself apart from the charitable works it invariably produces is what imputes the righteousness of God to a person. The charitable works only justify a person in regard to SHOWING that they have already received that imputation of God's righteousness. That's how they are able to produce those charitable works! They ALREADY have the imputation of God's righteousness to do the charitable works of faith that you say they get by doing those charitable works!

 

[dhh712]

="BreadOfLife, post: 1416681, member: 7345"]WRONG.
They don't become priests - then have to make this decision.
They know it going in

It shouldn't be something they even think about going into the ministry. Your tone is a bit too abrasive for me to continue conversation with you. If you wish to believe I'm wrong, I have no issue with that. Disrespectful posts are not on my agenda though. Wish you peace.

 

[dhh712]

A man who freely gives up everything (wife and children) for the sake of the kingdom is unthinkable to anti-clericalists, (contrary to the teachings of Jesus and Paul) and such total sacrifice is non-existent in your line of thinking. That's why you play word games. Your criticism of a celibate priesthood is based on emotion, not scripture.

Actually it is based on Scripture. There is nothing in it that disqualifies a married man to the ministry. Not a verse in God's word that says such a thing. And I've always readily agreed that the Lord points to it as a wise decision, one that would free us to more ably serve our Lord. Apparently though, not many people go this route.

Please point out an argument from emotion that I used. I do not recall that. I do recall saying most Christians are married just because it's a fact, not an argument from emotion.

Also I try to speak plainly. If there's any word games going on, please let me know about it. Thank you. I appreciate your time.

I'm also not sure where you came up with how that kind of sacrifice is non-existent to my line of thinking. Will you point out where I intimated anything like that? I'd truly like to know if this is what I'm doing so I can learn from these mistakes. Much appreciated again. Thank you.

 

[dhh712]

I'm not sure why that post I replied to Bread of life is so messed up. I tried to edit it, but it won't let me fix it. So, sorry. Must be something going on with this phone. It often acts glitchy.

 

[dhh712]

It seems that we're all talking about the same thing here regarding justification but just calling it different words. No one I've read here believes that works gain us salvation, but that they come from faith.

The only disagreement I see is that some here believe one can lose their justification. It can sure look that way, but some see it that they were actually never justified in the first place, it just looked like they were. Who knows what's in a person's heart when they leave the church? Maybe they'll repent and turn to Jesus later. Maybe they never believed. We just don't know.

It seems the issues about justification here are relatively minute details. It is certainly nothing I would wish to cause dissension among brothers and sisters in the Lord. I wish every peace in this thread and that the harmony of the Lord will be upon us.

 

[Illuminator]

Actually it is based on Scripture. There is nothing in it that disqualifies a married man to the ministry. Not a verse in God's word that says such a thing.

There is no verse that says Jesus and Paul were married and being like Jesus is the basis for celibacy. It's a calling, not a job opportunity.

And I've always readily agreed that the Lord points to it as a wise decision, one that would free us to more ably serve our Lord. Apparently though, not many people go this route.

YES! Right on!!!

Please point out an argument from emotion that I used. I do not recall that. I do recall saying most Christians are married just because it's a fact, not an argument from emotion.

"If they make their priests have to choose celibacy, the it's imposing something on them which is clearly not demanded by God's word. " post #156, a double straw man fallacy.
"Singleness in the Catholic ministry is most definitely a demand," Post #161
"However it is a flat-out lie to say that in anyplace in the Bible it is required. By the authority of God's word, celibacy is absolutely a man-made tradition. To say anything else is to falsify the word of God and may that person be cursed who adds to God's word what is not there, as God says he should be in Revelation." < an uncharitable and emotional rant and no response on Revelation 14:4 where virgins are honored.

I'm also not sure where you came up with how that kind of sacrifice is non-existent to my line of thinking. Will you point out where I intimated anything like that? I'd truly like to know if this is what I'm doing so I can learn from these mistakes. Much appreciated again. Thank you.

Your biggest mistake is equating a calling from God and twisting it into a church demand. Potential candidates don't just take it upon themselves into the priesthood. They must first consult a Vocations Director who is trained to guide an individual in the discernment process. A Vocations Director most likely has a degree in psychology. Potential candidates are free to quit this process at any time. The bottom line is it must be determined if a person is called by God, and their motives are pure. It's a spiritual journey, they don't get demand papers from the church. The discernment process continues while the potential candidates study for 4-7 years. Many seminarians freely quit during this time because hearing God's voice is not always crystal clear. God had to call the prophet Samuel 3 times before he realized Who it was.

Celibacy is a process. If it is pretense it is hypocrisy -- the gravest religious sin.

How to Become a Catholic Priest - Scripture Catholic

 

[dhh712]

There is no verse that says Jesus and Paul were married and being like Jesus is the basis for celibacy. It's a calling, not a job opportunity. YES! Right on!!!


"If they make their priests have to choose celibacy, the it's imposing something on them which is clearly not demanded by God's word. " post #156, a double straw man fallacy.
"Singleness in the Catholic ministry is most definitely a demand," Post #161
"However it is a flat-out lie to say that in anyplace in the Bible it is required. By the authority of God's word, celibacy is absolutely a man-made tradition. To say anything else is to falsify the word of God and may that person be cursed who adds to God's word what is not there, as God says he should be in Revelation." < an uncharitable and emotional rant and no response on Revelation 14:4 where virgins are honored.

Your biggest mistake is equating a calling from God and twisting it into a church demand. Potential candidates don't just take it upon themselves into the priesthood. They must first consult a Vocations Director who is trained to guide an individual in the discernment process. A Vocations Director most likely has a degree in psychology. Potential candidates are free to quit this process at any time. The bottom line is it must be determined if a person is called by God, and their motives are pure. It's a spiritual journey, they don't get demand papers from the church. The discernment process continues while the potential candidates study for 4-7 years. Many seminarians freely quit during this time because hearing God's voice is not always crystal clear. God had to call the prophet Samuel 3 times before he realized Who it was.

Celibacy is a process. If it is pretense it is hypocrisy -- the gravest religious sin.

How to Become a Catholic Priest - Scripture Catholic

The demand is for the minister to be single. The calling is to be a minister. No where in the God's word does he demand that a minister be single. I'm not sure how much more I can say this. I know that going into the ministry is a calling and one must determine if they are fit for the position. Whether that man is single or married is nowhere in God's word a determining factor (actually, a case can be made that they must be married).

I feel we are just going round and round in circles, so I will bow out of this discussion. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this with you. Much peace to you.

 

[farouk]

The demand is for the minister to be single. The calling is to be a minister. No where in the God's word does he demand that a minister be single. I'm not sure how much more I can say this. I know that going into the ministry is a calling and one must determine if they are fit for the position. Whether that man is single or married is nowhere in God's word a determining factor (actually, a case can be made that they must be married).

I feel we are just going round and round in circles, so I will bow out of this discussion. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this with you. Much peace to you.

Hi @dhh712 We read the Peter's wife's mother was ill; Peter was clearly married..........

 

[dhh712]

Hi @dhh712 We read the Peter's wife's mother was ill; Peter was clearly married..........

So was Samuel. The only examples the other side provides are Paul (who may have been divorced) and Jesus who will always follow the wise counsel of God. I'm just not sure how I can be more clear that it is definitely a demand on the Catholic ministry that is nowhere found in the word of God (at least out here in the states it is; hopefully those exceptions out in the East will become more the norm out this way. But as I said, it shouldn't be an exception; it just shouldn't be a factor at all since God's word does not make it one).

But this is twisting words or making up a strawman or something like that. [shrugs]. Not sure how else I can explain it since in fact there is absolutely no demand in God's word for a minister to be single. As I have always said, it is surely a wise counsel. And it is a calling to be a minister, not everyone is fit for it. As I said again--singleness or marriage on the part of the minister is no where--absolutely undeniably nowhere is there any shred of a verse--a factor in whether that person should be called to the ministry. But that I imagine will be seen as twisting words or is a strawman. [shrugs]. I give up. There's just nothing more I can say except to say the same thing over and over again.

 

[farouk]

So was Samuel. The only examples the other side provides are Paul (who may have been divorced) and Jesus who will always follow the wise counsel of God. I'm just not sure how I can be more clear that it is definitely a demand on the Catholic ministry that is nowhere found in the word of God. But this is twisting words or making up a strawman or something like that. [shrugs]. Not sure how else I can explain it since in fact there is absolutely no demand in God's word for a minister to be single. As I have always said, it is surely a wise counsel. And it is a calling to be a minister, not everyone is fit for it. As I said again--singleness or marriage on the part of the minister is no where--absolutely undeniably nowhere is there any shred of a verse--a factor in whether that person should be called to the ministry. But that I imagine will be seen as twisting words or is a strawman. [shrugs]. I give up. There's just nothing more I can say except to say the same thing over and over again.

@dhh712 Enforced celibacy is indeed not Scriptural.

I don't know where it's stated in Scripture that Paul was supposedly divorced, either; I know some ppl try to claim he was in order maybe to try to help whatever scheme it is that they may be arguing; but it';s essentially an argument from silence; something we point out that the cults try to do.

 

[dhh712]

@dhh712 Enforced celibacy is indeed not Scriptural.

I don't know where it's stated in Scripture that Paul was supposedly divorced, either; I know some ppl try to claim he was in order maybe to try to help whatever scheme it is that they may be arguing; but it';s essentially an argument from silence; something we point out that the cults try to do.

It's not in God's word that he was divorced, it's definitely an argument from silence. And I don't think anyone ever argued that he was definitely divorced, just that he could have been. No where does it mention that he was ever unmarried. Not really a big deal, we just don't know for sure. It's really not an issue.

 

[Illuminator]

@dhh712 Enforced celibacy is indeed not Scriptural.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to "enforce" a free choice, it's a ridiculous contradiction, and celibacy is indeed scriptural. I listed 12 relevant scriptures in post #150 here, and it got ignored, rendering this discussion pointless.

I don't know where it's stated in Scripture that Paul was supposedly divorced, either; I know some ppl try to claim he was in order maybe to try to help whatever scheme it is that they may be arguing; but it';s essentially an argument from silence; something we point out that the cults try to do.

Paul was celibate, and recommended celibacy for full time ministers of the church, as did Jesus. post #150 here, It's not a command, not a doctrine, and not an imposition, celibacy is a gift. Read your Bible.

THE PRIESTHOOD - FATHERS, CELIBACY & WOMEN'S ORDINATION - Scripture Catholic
Mandatory celibacy (only) in the Latin rite was not formalized until the 11th century, but that does not mean there were no celibates before that.
The Practice of Celibacy by the Christian Faithful in the First Two Centuries

 

[Illuminator]

Catholic Sexuality: A Concise Explanation & Defense

Related Reading:

Sexual Revolution: Not “Liberation” But Societal Tragedy [8-6-01]

Christian Sexual Views and Support from Sociology (Discussions About Christian Sexual Morality and Marriage with Atheists) [12-8-06]

Q & A: Catholic Sexual Morality and Contraception [1-1-08]

Condoms as a Solution to AIDS & Other STDs? [6-1-09]

Bestiality: Anti-Christian Morals Reductio? [12-21-15]

Catholic Sexuality: Cordial Dialogue with an Agnostic [12-30-15]

Dialogue on NFP: Anti-Sex and Anti-Pleasure? [1-23-17]

Dialogues on the Sexual Revolution & Weinstein’s Victims [10-14-17]

Epstein and Weinstein: The Fruit of the Sexual Revolution [11-4-17; rev. 7-19-19]

I Condemned Society-Wide Sexual Coercion in 2007 [11-17-17]

Sex and Catholics: Our Views Briefly Explained [National Catholic Register, 2-2-18]

Sex, Lies, & Videotape (“Discussion” w Angry Atheist) [2-15-19]

Mini-Debate on Libertarianism and Laws About Sex [3-7-19]

Vs. Atheist David Madison #40: Jesus: All Sexual Desire is Lust? (Replies to some of the most clueless atheist “arguments” to ever enter the mind of a sentient human being . . .) [12-18-19]

 

[Ferris Bueller]

justification is ongoing, not a one-time event.

Which definition of 'justification' are you referring to?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Only faith that WORKS is genuine faith that can justify.

Anything else is an clangling cymbal - an empty shell (1 Cor. 13:1-13).

The faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is indeed the faith that works.
The important point being, the faith all by itself solicits the imputation of God's righteousness, not the works.
If the works did, that would be the works gospel that Paul says can NOT justify.

 

[theefaith]

You make a good point! Paul remained unmarried saying that is what he recommended, but if you can't contain yourself, then marry.

It may be a discipline with good intentions, but it's a man-made discipline when made mandatory, not according to Christ.

Some would say this is an example of many "traditions of men" found in the RCC.

the church is governed by men

with authority in a three fold office to teach: to govern:and to sanctify:

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

 

[theefaith]

How do works of charity, for example, MAKE a person born again in your 'faith + works of faith' interpretation of Romans 4?

born again by faith and baptism Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 8:37:38

United to God in His grace

 

[Ferris Bueller]

born again by faith and baptism Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 8:37:38

United to God in His grace

Baptism is a commanded obedience but it has zero power to change/ convert/ make born again.
Only God's forgiveness received by believing in that forgiveness can do that. That's what makes justification/salvation the gracious gift that it is. So that no man can boast.