What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God

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quietthinker

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You are clearly, desperately intent on reading into Scripture what is not there. If it was important for us to know he was God incarnate, why didn't he just come right out and say it - like he came right out and said he was the Messiah? Why is all the so called evidence vaguely worded and you have to read into it?
Mostly because God does not spoon feed us. He allows our own observations and the ability to draw our own conclusions.......he even adds, don't be tricked (deceived)
 

Matthias

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Jesus had nothing to do with the message Jeremiah received from Yahweh.

I checked the passage on Bible Gateway, looking to see if any translator capitalized the “w”. Only one did, NLV: “Now the Word of the Lord came to me saying, …”

That brings me to John 1:1.

Dabar is the word or message of God (it’s also the word or message of others). It first exists inwardly, in the mind. It is with a person (God or not God) as a person being alone with their thoughts. It then exists outwardly, in spoken, written or signaled expression of the mind.

That brings me to John 1:1.
 

Matthias

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John isn’t speaking about the Trinity in John 1:1 when John speaks about God.

Would you agree or disagree with that @RLT63?
 

Matthias

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In John 14:12 Jesus was speaking of the Father being in him and he in the father. Where it says greater works, works is in italics in the KJV. He could be speaking about the Apostles.

I’m thinking that and more. The greater works being the evangelism done on a larger scale by the apostles and on a still larger scale by disciples over the centuries as the gospel is spread throughout the entire world.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Jesus had nothing to do with the message Jeremiah received from Yahweh.

I checked the passage on Bible Gateway, looking to see if any translator capitalized the “w”. Only one did, NLV: “Now the Word of the Lord came to me saying, …”

That brings me to John 1:1.
1 Thessalonians 2:13....
“And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.” (ESV)

This definitely identifies the “word” of God as something heard from the apostles, conveyed to them by their teacher, Jesus Christ. It wasn’t the “word of men” but the “word of God” much of which later became the scriptures that we read today.

But “the Word” (Logos) is also used as a title for the son of God which is confirmed in John 1:14-15...
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’)” (ESV)

So we have two distinct meanings conveyed here....the written “word of God” conveyed in the scriptures....and the spoken word of God conveyed by his son. So the title means being a spokesman for God, which we can see by reading the words he spoke that were from his Father, not from himself.
 

Matthias

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1 Thessalonians 2:13....
“And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.” (ESV)

This definitely identifies the “word” of God as something heard from the apostles, conveyed to them by their teacher, Jesus Christ. It wasn’t the “word of men” but the “word of God” much of which later became the scriptures that we read today.

But “the Word” (Logos) is also used as a title for the son of God which is confirmed in John 1:14-15...
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’)” (ESV)

So we have two distinct meanings conveyed here....the written “word of God” conveyed in the scriptures....and the spoken word of God conveyed by his son. So the title means being a spokesman for God, which we can see by reading the words he spoke that were from his Father, not from himself.

Those are good points, but that’s not what I see going on in John 1:1.
 

quietthinker

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Wring! Of all books ever written in the Bible is especially credited with his directness written in stone, thou shall not, 1 C, Shema, etc.
The whole sanctuary system given to Israel was to make them think about the meaning of its symbols. It appears they never did. They turned the practices/symbols into having intrinsic value......they never understood what they pointed forward to. They became a glorified version of the practices of the Pagan nations around them. They assumed God needed appeasing with blood....the more they slaughtered, the happier God would be.

Christians are in a similar danger. They quote scripture wholesale and incessantly not understanding the objective. They have largely set up a system which qualifies as making a God in their own image.
 

Matthias

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John isn’t speaking about the Trinity in John 1:1 when John speaks about God.

Would you agree or disagree with that @RLT63?

In my experience, virtually all trinitarians do. I’ve spoken with a few who don’t.

John isn’t speaking about the Trinity in John 1:1.

Is John talking about two persons or only one person in John 1:1?

In my experience with them, trinitarians - with very few exceptions - will say that John is speaking about two persons, the Father and the Son.

Binitarians and most unitarians give the same answer to the question that the trinitarians give - two.

What I see in John 1:1 is John speaking about only one person, Yahweh.
 

RLT63

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In my experience, virtually all trinitarians do. I’ve spoken with a few who don’t.

John isn’t speaking about the Trinity in John 1:1.

Is John talking about two persons or only one person in John 1:1?

In my experience with them, trinitarians - with very few exceptions - will say that John is speaking about two persons, the Father and the Son.

Binitarians and most unitarians give the same answer to the question that the trinitarians give - two.

What I see in John 1:1 is John speaking about only one person, Yahweh.
What if I came home and there was a note from my wife that said, "I love you and I'm proud of you. Please take out the garbage and feed the dog." Then when she came home there were cars up and down the street and a lot of people in the house and she said "What's going on? " And I said " I liked your note so much I called my friends to study it. I have an English teacher here and he is explaining what each word means and the sentence structure, your note is so great!" And she said " Did you take out the garbage and feed the dog? " And I said " No, I was so busy studying your note I didn't have time to do what it said." I think we run the danger of being guilty of that with the Bible. I don't mean to direct that at you, it's just an observation. I think I need to try to do what the Bible says to do as much as I try to understand everything about it.
 
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Matthias

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What if I came home and there was a note from my wife that said, "I love you and I'm proud of you. Please take out the garbage and feed the dog." Then when she came home there were cars up and down the street and a lot of people in the house and she said "What's going on? " And I said " I liked your note so much I called my friends to study it. I have an English teacher here and he is explaining what each word means and the sentence structure, your note is so great!" And she said " Did you take out the garbage and feed the dog? " And I said " No, I was so busy studying your note I didn't have time to do what it said." I think we run the danger of being guilty of that with the Bible. I don't mean to direct that at you, it's just an observation. I think I need to try to do what the Bible says to do as much as I try to understand everything about it.

Do you see three persons in John 1:1? If not, you don’t see the Trinity in John 1:1. (I think this is why a few trinitarians I’ve spoken with have said they see three persons in the verse.) When John speaks about God in the verse he isn’t speaking about your deity. I believe he is speaking about the Messiah’s God.
 

RLT63

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Do you see three persons in John 1:1? If not, you don’t see the Trinity in John 1:1. (I think this is why a few trinitarians I’ve spoken with have said they see three persons in the verse.) When John speaks about God in the verse he isn’t speaking about your deity. I believe he is speaking about the Messiah’s God.
I see the Father and the Son. The book of John is about Jesus and I believe the opening is too.
 

Matthias

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I see the Father and the Son.

Two persons, not three persons; not the Trinity.

You don’t see the Trinity in John 1:1. Neither do I. That’s something we have in common. The binitarians and unitarians also have that in common with us.

The book of John is about Jesus and I believe the opening is too.

The book of John is about God and Jesus; God and man.

In John 1:1, I see John speaking only about God, not about Jesus. I see John setting the stage for his readers in verses 1-5. God did something in the past (the Genesis creation). That’s the set-up for what follows (the new creation).
 

RLT63

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Do you see three persons in John 1:1? If not, you don’t see the Trinity in John 1:1. (I think this is why a few trinitarians I’ve spoken with have said they see three persons in the verse.) When John speaks about God in the verse he isn’t speaking about your deity. I believe he is speaking about the Messiah’s God.
Now let me ask you something. Philippians 1:21-23 Paul speaks of wishing to die to be with Christ. What do you make of this?
 

Matthias

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Now let me ask you something. Philippians 1:21-23 Paul speaks of wishing to die to be with Christ. What do you make of this?

I don’t think Paul wished to die. Who wants to die? I don’t. Do you?

His race, his work, would be over if he died. There is good in that. He has completed the work he was given to do; he has run the race set before him and finished it. All that remains for him is receiving his reward.

There is good in remaining alive. He could continue his work, continue running his race. Who would that benefit? The people he had evangelized and people he hadn’t but potentially could.

Paul was torn between the two.

The work is good but it wears us down. We long to be present with the Messiah and receive our reward.

When will he / we be present with Christ? When will he / we receive the reward? At the resurrection.
 

RLT63

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I don’t think Paul wished to die. Who wants to die? I don’t. Do you?

His race, his work, would be over if he died. There is good in that. He has completed the work he was given to do; he has run the race set before him and finished it. All that remains for him is receiving his reward.

There is good in remaining alive. He could continue his work, continue running his race. Who would that benefit? The people he had evangelized and people he hadn’t but potentially could.

Paul was torn between the two.

The work is good but it wears us down. We long to be present with the Messiah and receive our reward.

When will he / we be present with Christ? When will he / we receive the reward? At the resurrection.
It sounds more like Paul thought he would be with Christ when he died
 
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