What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."

[Matthias]

Thats the KJV word..(vision)....and i agree with it, but, its not the same as we use that word today.
In other words, that word, means..>"what you have seen".
Not, a trancelike state.
You can check other versions and you'll see what i mean, or you can do a Koine Greek Word study.

"vision", in that verses means..>"what you have literally seen"

And in those verses, You see that the apostle was trying to interrupt the Transfiguration, and Jesus corrected him.
Jesus would not leave the Vision to deal with an Apostle that was trying to build alters for Moses and Elijah.

Matthew 17:9 Commentaries: As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."

 

[Behold]

Matthew 17:9 Commentaries: As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."

"tell no one what you have seen". "Literally".
-
Here is the Jewish Bible... "9 As they came down the mountain, Yeshua ordered them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”"""

Contemporary English version"..." On their way down from the mountain, Jesus warned his disciples not to tell anyone what they had seen until after the Son of Man had been raised from death."""


So, i can post 15 more but, that is not necessary.

"vision" is correct, but "what you have literally seen" is the word rightly divided.

They were not in a Trance.
Jesus was literally Transfigured.

 

[Matthias]

"tell no one what you have seen". "Literally".
-
Here is the Jewish Bible... "9 As they came down the mountain, Yeshua ordered them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”"""

Contemporary English version"..." On their way down from the mountain, Jesus warned his disciples not to tell anyone what they had seen until after the Son of Man had been raised from death."""


So, i can post 15 more but, that is not necessary.

"vision" is correct, but "what you have literally seen" is the word rightly divided.

They were not in a Trance.
Jesus was literally Transfigured.

Visions in the Bible

 

[Matthias]

Word search for “trance” in my posts.

Results: 0

There will be 1 now.

 

[Peterlag]

You would have to be Christ to know what that is! He is the only One who this has happened to, as far as us humans know.

The idea is that Christ for sure existed in heaven before the incarnation in the form of God, and became the Suffering Servant in the form of man. His existence was from the form of God to the form of man.

How this happened is a mystery performed by the Holy Spirit, we have no idea, and the Scripture does not explain how He did this. We know that a virgin conceived by the Holy Spirit and who we know now as Christ was born a man, the incarnation.

The glory that Christ spoke of that He had with the Father and the fact that John and Paul say Christ is the Creator, is the reputation that He emptied Himself of. He became a man in the flesh as we are, but left behind who He was with the Father before His incarnation..

At His ascension, He went back to that glory with the Father and has added to His resume of Creator the title of Creator/Saviour/ and Mediator. What He did as a man on this earth, redeeming mankind, the Father has made Him heir of all things, and He/Christ has promised to share that inheritance with all that believe and trust in Him.

Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

P. S. I don't suppose you have any Scripture that says God emptied Himself?

 

[Wrangler]

I Am the True Vine.

Yes but God is the gardener.

Yes, Christ is the Everlasting Father as Isaiah said.

Jesus is the son not the father. (Isaiah was not referring to the Messiah when he said, not what a man IS, but what a man will be called.) Jesus is not referred to as the father once in the NT. So, I think you know Jesus is not actually the father.

 

[Wrangler]

If I need correction, may I ask why you feel qualified to deliver it?

What Biblical qualifications are needed to correct someone? I don’t recall Ananias‘ qualifications being listed before he straightened out Saul’s sorry butt.

 

[Aunty Jane]

What Biblical qualifications are needed to correct someone? I don’t recall Ananias‘ qualifications being listed before he straightened out Saul’s sorry butt.

Warning! Scriptural response to the post above......

Ananias’ qualifications could not have been more excellent.....qualified by holy spirit.
Following the conversion of Saul, Ananias was given a vision in which Jesus gave him Saul’s name and where to find him, with instructions to visit him. Though at first hesitant because he knew of Saul’s fiery persecution of the Christians, Ananias responded and went to Saul, caused him to recover his sight, informed him of his commission to be God’s witness, and arranged for his baptism.

Saul who became Paul, in a later defense before opposing Jews, referred to Ananias as a man “reverent according to the Law, well reported on by all the Jews dwelling there [in Damascus].” In view of his being a Christian, such Jewish commendation was indeed a remarkable testimony to his conduct.
(Please read the accounts in Acts 9:10-18; Acts 22:12-16)

 

[Charlie24]

Yes but God is the gardener.



Jesus is the son not the father. (Isaiah was not referring to the Messiah when he said, not what a man IS, but what a man will be called.) Jesus is not referred to as the father once in the NT. So, I think you know Jesus is not actually the father.

No, Jesus is not the Father, they are two distinct beings, but it is much more complicated.

The relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, cannot be explained, in my opinion. It's from another realm and the Scripture takes no effort to explain it. The reason for all of this back and forth. Frankly, I don't think man is capable of understanding it, in this life anyway. Lots of folks try to explain it but they are only scratching the surface.

The Scripture makes it clear that Christ is the Creator of all things, and it was created for Him, without Him was nothing made that was made. By Him the universe is held together and sustains itself. Most credit this with being the Father, but the Scripture specifically credits Christ.

So if Christ is the Creator as we are told in Scripture by especially John and Paul, then Gen. 1:1 "in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" is a direct reference to Christ, or at least who we know now as Christ. There are many explanations for this, but do you see the complications that arise?

We all have our own thoughts and beliefs on what this means, but who is right? What kind of relationship is this with the word "God," are we capable of understanding it? That's where my mind goes and not to the assuming of explaining it.

 

[Wrangler]

Ananias’ qualifications could not have been more excellent.....qualified by holy spirit.

As are mine.

I felt prompted throughout the day yesterday before I made my 2 part post.

 

[Aunty Jane]

As are mine.

You keep shifting the goalposts mate.....first you imply that Ananias had no qualifications, and now you claim the ones you said he didn’t have.....

I felt prompted throughout the day yesterday before I made my 2 part post.

How can you be sure of “what” prompted you? The heart is treacherous...remember? (Jeremiah 17:9)

 

[Wrangler]

No, Jesus is not the Father, they are two distinct beings, but it is much more complicated.

ROFLMAO. It is no more complicated than Jesus is not God. Only the father is god.

That’s what the Bible says. Why is that not good enough for you?

 

[Charlie24]

ROFLMAO. It is no more complicated than Jesus is not God. Only the father is god.

That’s what the Bible says. Why is that not good enough for you?

Well, what was I thinking? Maybe I addressed the wrong person with this, you think?

This is too much for an "another Jesus" believer, especially when he's reading another Bible!

 

[Wrangler]

You keep shifting the goalposts mate.....first you imply that Ananias had no qualifications, and now you claim the ones you said he didn’t have.....

Not moving the goalposts at all. Not sure how you get that?

1st, you are not humble enough to admit Scripture does not state what Ananias qualifications were to straighten out Saul.

2nd, you rely on your intellect to ascribe you worldview - that he had qualifications listed - onto the information you’ve been provided.

3rd, your intellect has failed you because, like Paul, Ananias is nothing and has no qualifications. 1 Corinthians 15:10 None of the Apostles did. Neither did Jesus. See John 8:54.

Rather, they emptied themselves of self, not acting in their own authority or qualifications and like Abraham, they act on faith, on the prompting of the Spirit of God. Romans 4:1-3

We’ve talked about all this before but you don’t have ears to hear. You have great morals, intellect and knowledge but your pride blocks the Spirit.

How can you be sure of “what” prompted you? The heart is treacherous...remember? (Jeremiah 17:9)

Do you remember not to rely on your own understanding, Proverbs 3:5?

How does Scripture identify how Ananias was sure it was the HS? (For some reason, you practically blaspheme the HS as being merely my emotions.)

 

[Wrangler]

This will be my last post with you on this, @Aunty Jane.

The goal of Christianity is NOT to be a Bible student!

Can you admit this is true, yes or no?

I pray you consider what I've said and meditate on the Bible verses I referenced. Romans 14:10-14 & 1 Corinthians 9:19-23.

If you prayed and meditated on these verses and still feel acting as a pedant is the way for you, I’ll leave you to it.

Much love, sister.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, cannot be explained, in my opinion. It's from another realm and the Scripture takes no effort to explain it. The reason for all of this back and forth. Frankly, I don't think man is capable of understanding it, in this life anyway.

The fact is, it was never there in the first place. All of the Bible writers were Jewish and so was Jesus. The only scripture Jesus and the apostles used was the OT...the Jewish scripture where there is no trinity....and never was. Their God was “one” not three. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Jesus did not come to introduce a new God and a new religion.....he came to reintroduce the God that the Pharisees had lost, and to introduce a new covenant...one that they knew was foretold by Jeremiah. (Jeremiah 31:31-33)

The Scripture makes it clear that Christ is the Creator of all things, and it was created for Him, without Him was nothing made that was made. By Him the universe is held together and sustains itself. Most credit this with being the Father, but the Scripture specifically credits Christ.

Actually it doesn’t.....Jesus is not called “the Creator” in any verse of the scriptures. Only the Father is the Creator, but he was not alone. Genesis speaks of “us” and “our” so God was not talking to himself.

The one Paul describes as “the image of the invisible God” was “with” his Father as his “firstborn”. “Firstborn” means the first of your children and we know that God had many “sons”...yet none of them were like his unique “firstborn”........the pre-human Jesus was the agency “through” whom creation was made. If it was made “through him and for him”......so how can Jesus be God? Not only did God involve his son in the creative process, but he was going to gift the creation to him as well.

So if Christ is the Creator as we are told in Scripture by especially John and Paul, then Gen. 1:1 "in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" is a direct reference to Christ, or at least who we know now as Christ. There are many explanations for this, but do you see the complications that arise?

Most explanations are really interpretations....these do not agree with the Bible’ overall theme, nor does it fit God’s purpose in giving mankind a savior......the savior had to be mortal so that his life could be used to redeem the condemned human race. God is immortal and cannot die, nor would his life pay the price required to redeem Adam’s children.....it would have been an extreme overpayment....like using a hundred trillion cans of bug spray to deal with one mosquito.
Jesus’ life had to be the exact equivalent of Adam’s.....sinless.....which he had to come from outside of the fallen human race. He didn’t have to be God. The redeemer could not be God.

We all have our own thoughts and beliefs on what this means, but who is right?

That is the question that we all need to ponder. The scriptures themselves answer that question, but the ‘pet beliefs’ of an apostate church get in the way.....adding meanings to scripture that are out of harmony with everything else that it teaches.

We need to know what the entirety of scripture teaches so that the pieces of the puzzle all fit into one picture. In Christendom...they clearly do not.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This will be my last post with you on this, @Aunty Jane.

Probably a good idea.....

Can you admit this is true, yes or no?

A resounding NO! We must be students of God’s word because we are to preach to others about the Kingdom of God. We are sent forth by Christ to spread the word.....it requires study or how else would we be able to speak with any authority on the scriptures if we don’t know what they teach???? Why do we have a Bible in the first place? To ignore most of what is written in it?

If you prayed and meditated on these verses and still feel acting as a pedant is the way for you, I’ll leave you to it.

What you interpret as pedantic is just me being thorough.....the treasure is not lying around on the surface....we are told to dig for it.....why? Because it is hidden. What I post is what I have arrived at by years of study. I don’t know why that bothers you.

You don’t get blessed by God’s spirit unless you give it something to reward. If we make no effort to increase our knowledge, the Bible might as well stay on the shelf unopened.

Waving your finger doesn’t make me want to cower in the corner, somehow ashamed of what I have achieved after years of seeking answers to my own questions.

Your beliefs are yours....and mine are mine. We all have choices and our final destiny hinges on what we accept as truth....that is what I believe “separates the sheep from the goats”.

 

[APAK]

I'm a little late for this party although I will give my 2 cents in on at least Col 1:15-18. I agree with your OP...

I can add nearly the same commentary..

In verse 15: the image of God speaks volumes and certainly that an image surely cannot be God himself. The Son of man reflected perfectly, as the perfect completed image of his Father.

The 'first born' here refers to Jesus specifically after his resurrection from the dead by his Father. And of all creatures does mean all creatures of all time and the future. It relates to Christ being the firstborn to the new eternal life and 'all' the 'new' creatures of believers are those that follow(ed) him, the Father's elect.


Verse 16 is not about the creation act depicted in Genesis by God Almighty. Trinitarians and other who believe Yahshua pre-existed, make the error of suggesting that Paul is speaking of Genesis and creation of ‘all things.’ and this time by Jesus. This is a verse they claim says that Jesus is the creator of ‘all.’

‘All’ or the Greek transliteration ‘pas’ here, has an association and a definite limitation of scope and a limited context. It is related to Christ and the scope of what his Father gave him authority to create since his ascension. These things created in heaven and earth are such things as angels governance and order with their dedicated service to Christ’s body, and the nurture of new believers in the Spirit. As you pointed out..

The structure of verse 16 is conveyed as a beginning statement and a restatement of it at the end to ensure the reader understands the context or meaning is read in between them. (Beginning) In him 'all' things were created… things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities….’all’ (THESE things as a list are stated) things were created through him (End). So between ‘them’ spells out what this creation means, and it does not mean the creation of ‘all things’ as in Genesis. It is limited in scope and cannot mean ALL the universe etc. That exotic meaning would be way out of context.

In the beginning of Genesis 1 and now here what I call 'Genesis 2' as the new creation in his Son, God created the world and all things with a certain outcome in mind and with his word and spirit - the means by which to bring about salvation for mankind, so in this sense all things and the world were made with Jesus in mind, and through him. The things spoken of in this verse however are for the development and maturing of Kingdom in his Body or his church. As you also indicated..

Paul has certain expressions he used quite frequently. One is the expression “in him” as in “in Christ” or “in Jesus.”

The context and setting for verse 16, begins before it as in most cases of scripture.

The error in translation of the verse is critical.

(Col 1:16) For in him (by his Father’s word – my addition) were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things have been created on account of him and for him (by his Father’s word – my addition) . (NEV)

For through the Son (by his Father’s word – my addition) everything was created, both in the heavenly realm and on the earth, all that is seen and all that is unseen. Every seat of power, realm of government, principality, and authority—it was all created through him (by his Father’s word – my addition) and for his purpose! (TPT)

Many translations of Col 1:16 incorrectly read ‘ For by him…’ as if to say that Jesus himself actually created these things instead of his Father by his word and spirit. And then they go off context completely and extend this creation of the Son to old Genesis, and say he created the heavens and the earth. I guess I made this point already.

Everything pertinent to this world runs through Jesus Christ because his Father desires it and created it all. His mission given by his Father is to establish and grow the Kingdom of his Father. To tear down all powers and authorities, and to destroy evil and eliminate death completely. When completed, Jesus shall return the Kingdom of his Father, representing the full restoration of creation to his Father so his Father can dwell in or be in ‘all’ creation.

Verses 13 and 14 speaks to the Kingdom given to Jesus who was raises to immortality. In him we have redemption.

Verse 15 is about the new creation the Kingdom of God given to the head, the first risen. He is the head of all believers - the whole of creation.

And of verse 17, Christ is indeed before 'all' these same (the same limited scope) things, again he is in charge of all these things he created by him for the church's life. There is no mention of a Genesis creation here. And why should there be mention of it? It would stick out like a sore thumb indeed!

And again, in verse 17, Paul uses the same “in him” expression to mean “for him” he was ‘before’ or the first in rank and in preeminent, and from all believers within his body.

Verse 18 provides more context that the subject is all about Jesus in heaven. It reiterates the fact that Jesus is and became first, the firstborn of any dead human being. And also, Jesus should have pre-eminent in all things, of the Kingdom. God, his Father does not need to have pre-eminence of anything or to anyone. He already has it!. He gave authority to Jesus, and he then would require him being first in all things or the pre-eminent one in, or of all things in this Kingdom and in the heavens and on the earth. And he does have this as he sits in power at the right hand of his Father, in heaven.

In Christ and for Christ, God the Father brought all the new creation back to order. He uses Christ to fix creation on the earth, and in the heavens, both with the creation of believers of the Kingdom.

In verse 18b it explains more clearly verse 15b, that Christ is the beginning, not of Genesis because we are drawn to the word 'beginning,' He is the beginning, or even the father of the new life (cf. Isaiah 9:6 - everlasting father) and firstborn from the dead, indeed.

...end it now as it may well become a rant .....

 

[Peterlag]

Oy vey! I'm not going to answer tit for tat your defense mechanisms to defend your idol of knowledge.

Implied in this statement is you are the keeper of deeper knowledge than me. Pride this is.

Your preference to show off your knowledge may be a JW failing to not meet people where they are. For instance, in another thread, I asked a simple yes or no question; do JW's believe the angel Michael is the pre-carnate Jesus. A 2 or 3 letter reply would suffice. (Yes or no )Instead you pontificated for paragraphs!

It's a real turn off.

Clearly, you are not answering for my benefit. Your answer is to fluff yourself up, not to give glory to God but to give glory to yourself, your 50 years of Biblical study and the JW doctrines you adhere to.

I would enjoy if you could help me with a question I have. Others have called me a JW
on here and you also are using the term. Can you tell me what a JW is?

 

[Peterlag]

It's telling the trinitarian ran out of arguments. So, he has to invoke all kinds of irrelevant Scripture, hoping something sticks.

This thread is about Col 1:16.

There really is no 'ultimate' answer to why questions. We can have fun speculating. But why does it matter? This was the basic question of another thread that no one gave even close to an honest answer; what benefit is there to believing Jesus is God? Regardless of why Jesus said this, he is not God. If Jesus were God, he would not be praying to himself to ask himself to glorify himself with the glory he had with himself before the world was. The sentence plainly shows 1 Being praying to another Being.

A basic problem with trinitarianism is that there are inherent problems in trying to impose a trinitarian interpretation onto unitarian text. You are forced to ask such questions as 'why did Jesus say that,' wanting the answer to be that he must be god. But the problem is, there are unitarian answers that are just as legitimate. That is, the text does not, as trinitarians suppose, necessarily imply the trinity.

For instance, Jeremiah 1:5 states that God knew us before we were born. By extension, he knew Jesus before he was born. God also knows the glory has has in mind for us, Jeremiah 29:11. And by extension, the glory he has in mind for Jesus. Perhaps Jesus has this in mind when he prays for this. Insecure, scared to death, afraid, etc, Jesus was about the immediate future. That Jesus was insecure in his relationship with God cannot be denied since he asked God to pass the bitter cup. It confirms what the Bible repeatedly states explicitly, that Jesus was a man. Why is that not good enough for you?

God does not ask another to change his fate. God is our fate. Jesus' God is the only God. Amen.

[/QUOTE]

The benefit is that I don't have a relationship with some random guy the Father anointed to make my redemption possible. I have a relationship with God Himself in Christ. He not only created me, but lowered Himself in shame and died a cruel death that I might be delivered from my sin.

Not some random guy, but God Himself did this for me. Only He could do it and did do it and all because He loved us.

So you can have that relationship with that "other Jesus" if you like, but for me, my Saviour is exactly what Isaiah said He is, the Almighty God. My relationship is with the One who knows my true heart, my thoughts, what I will do and why I do it.

And I'll tell you something else, Wrangler. The One who told Moses to tell the people that "I Am that I Am" has sent you, is the same One, the same voice who said,

I Am the Bread of life.

I Am the Light of the world.

I Am the Door of the sheep.

I Am the good Shepherd.

I Am the Resurrection and the Life.

I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

I Am the True Vine.

Yes, Christ is the Everlasting Father as Isaiah said. And none of it can be explained as the Scripture reveals it.[/QUOTE]

Where in the Bible does it say Jesus was just some random guy? Perhaps God needs to be better taught so that He no longer makes statements like this is my beloved son in whom I am well please. And this is the verse that comes to mind when you say you have a relationship with your saviour...

1 John 4:2-3
Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: