What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."

[RLT63]

No. I wasn’t then and I’m not now.

They could cause offense. They could turn off. They could shut down. They could end conversation. They could end friendship.

It’s because of that potential that I don’t use them in conversation.

We’ve known one another on the Internet for several years now. I had a decision to make; a choice. The potential is there in your words but, because I know you as well as I do, there was no real chance of that happening. My decision, my choice, was an easy one to make.

Had it been said to me by someone I don’t know as well as I know you, I might have made a different decision.

I’m not chastising you over them. I’m thanking you for them. They gave me a segue - in a safe and friendly environment - to comment on something which has been weighing on my mind.

Our words are spirit and they have power. We all need to be careful with them. They can work for us and they can work against us.



Which is precisely what occurred with me in the course of our conversation.



I’ve never believed that a mortal human person can be in heaven. In fact, I’ve said that no mortal human person is in heaven, nor ever will be.

What I’ve said, and what I’ve believed for a long time now, is that an immortal human person is sitting at the right hand of his God and my God in heaven right now.

I don’t see anything in scripture which leads me to think that any other human person who will be clothed with immortality when resurrected from the dead will ever be in heaven at any time. I leave open the possibility that it could happen sometime but the action such persons will be involved in will take place on the earth.

"I don’t see anything in scripture which leads me to think that any other human person who will be clothed with immortality when resurrected from the dead will ever be in heaven at any time. I leave open the possibility that it could happen sometime but the action such persons will be involved in will take place on the earth"

Rev 4:4

And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Who are these people?

 

[Matthias]

"I don’t see anything in scripture which leads me to think that any other human person who will be clothed with immortality when resurrected from the dead will ever be in heaven at any time. I leave open the possibility that it could happen sometime but the action such persons will be involved in will take place on the earth"

Rev 4:4

And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Who are these people?

Have you consulted any commentaries? Scripture doesn’t elaborate on who they are and a wide variety of opinions / suggestions have been offered down through the centuries of Church history.

Who they are not, are those who are asleep in the grave, awaiting resurrection to life when the Messiah returns.

 

[Wrangler]

set aside His expression of deity

dude! We are not talking about expression or manifestation or form or image but the nature of a created being.

If God came to earth and merely appeared as a man, it means there was no actual sacrifice unto death, only the temporary stopping of expression. It totally destroys what Jesus did for us for many mortal hero’s actually sacrifice their lives.

 

[Peterlag]

Thank you. We are not called to be teachers either as Aunty Jane supposes. We are called to action, to sharpen iron as Proverbs 27:17 says; to be disciple makers, to love god and others.

This is the ends. The means may include us being students for time, to be teachers for a time. But the means and the ends are different. Knowledge is NOT an end onto itself. Knowledge is so we may possess the ful armor of God to successfully battle the spiritual forces of evil, Eph. 6:12 in achieving the great work before us, fulfulling the Great Commission.

I don't want to hear one more time what agape love means ... let's get 'er done!

Kind a like graduating from the class ha?

 

[Matthias]

"Express image" is used only one time in Scripture, Heb. 1:3.

It can be taken literally or figuratively, which one is correct? Meaning that Christ is the exact reproduction of God the Father in visual image, or the exact reproduction in character and essence.

The Scripture says that we have been predestined to be conformed into the image of God. Not the visual image of God, but the image of His character and essence. So I see it figuratively, spiritually speaking.

Christ is the exact reproduction of God the Father in character and essence. Which would mean, of course, Christ is Deity!

It’s easy to search for occurrences of the word “essence” in scripture. Have you done that?

 

[Peterlag]

What I'm saying is that the change from the form which He existed in heaven, to the existence of man on earth, was a change from Deity to that of a man, who set aside His expression of deity, but could not change the fact He is deity.

If you take in context Phil 2:6-7, which most don't, there is a huge difference in the appearance of who He was while "in the form of God" in heaven, and the "form of a servant" on earth, but at the same time He was always deity.

Being in the form of God, and thinking it not robbery to be equal with God can only be taken as Him being a co-participant in the Divine essence of Deity. This is the position He emptied Himself of to become "the Servant" through the incarnation, God becoming man.

The change from exercising His power of Deity in heaven, to the realm of setting aside that power and becoming man on this earth, is a change far beyond that of external appearance!

"Morphe" takes on a whole new dimension in Phil. 2:6-8, than that of His change on the road after His resurrection, if the context is taken in it's full meaning.

Just how in the world could God empty Himself? How would I do that? Just totally forget who I was and then remember later? Drain my blood and then die and then put it back again and raise myself? Just how does anyone empty himself? Just how would a God do that?

 

[RLT63]

Have you consulted any commentaries? Scripture doesn’t elaborate on who they are and a wide variety of opinions / suggestions have been offered down through the centuries of Church history.

Who they are not, are those who are asleep in the grave, awaiting resurrection to life when the Messiah returns.

John Darby says they are the apostles and patriarchs but they represent the Church. Dr. Ironside says that like King David appointed 24 elders to represent the Levitical priesthood, these represent the heavenly priesthood, all believers who have died. Dr. William R. Newell says they are elders over God's creation, heavenly beings, not representative of men.

 

[Matthias]

John Darby says they are the apostles and patriarchs but they represent the Church. Dr. Ironside says that like King David appointed 24 elders to represent the Levitical priesthood, these represent the heavenly priesthood, all believers who have died. Dr. William R. Newell says they are elders over God's creation, heavenly beings, not representative of men.

That’s a good, brief, survey.

 

[RLT63]

That’s a good, brief, survey.

There seems to be a split over whether they represent men or they are heavenly beings.

 

[Matthias]

There seems to be a split over whether they represent men or they are heavenly beings.

Yes. I leave it at that. I don’t think all questions must be, or even can be, answered by us at this time.

We’ll find out for sure and certain in due time.

 

[Charlie24]

dude! We are not talking about expression or manifestation or form or image but the nature of a created being.

If God came to earth and merely appeared as a man, it means there was no actual sacrifice unto death, only the temporary stopping of expression. It totally destroys what Jesus did for us for many mortal hero’s actually sacrifice their lives.

Did not Paul say that Christ made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Himself the form of a servant?

Who do you think Christ was before His incarnation? Why did He say, "glorify me with the glory I had with You before the world was?"

That goes back to before Gen. 1:1, and you say He was created at the virgin birth? Better think again.

And if you say He was created at another time, show us in Scripture when that was!

 

[Charlie24]

Just how in the world could God empty Himself? How would I do that? Just totally forget who I was and then remember later? Drain my blood and then die and then put it back again and raise myself? Just how does anyone empty himself? Just how would a God do that?

You would have to be Christ to know what that is! He is the only One who this has happened to, as far as us humans know.

The idea is that Christ for sure existed in heaven before the incarnation in the form of God, and became the Suffering Servant in the form of man. His existence was from the form of God to the form of man.

How this happened is a mystery performed by the Holy Spirit, we have no idea, and the Scripture does not explain how He did this. We know that a virgin conceived by the Holy Spirit and who we know now as Christ was born a man, the incarnation.

The glory that Christ spoke of that He had with the Father and the fact that John and Paul say Christ is the Creator, is the reputation that He emptied Himself of. He became a man in the flesh as we are, but left behind who He was with the Father before His incarnation..

At His ascension, He went back to that glory with the Father and has added to His resume of Creator the title of Creator/Saviour/ and Mediator. What He did as a man on this earth, redeeming mankind, the Father has made Him heir of all things, and He/Christ has promised to share that inheritance with all that believe and trust in Him.

 

[Wrangler]

Who do you think Christ was before His incarnation?

Nothing more than you were before you were born. What were you before you were born?

Why did He say, "glorify me with the glory I had with You before the world was?"

That goes back to before Gen. 1:1

It's telling the trinitarian ran out of arguments. So, he has to invoke all kinds of irrelevant Scripture, hoping something sticks.

This thread is about Col 1:16.

There really is no 'ultimate' answer to why questions. We can have fun speculating. But why does it matter? This was the basic question of another thread that no one gave even close to an honest answer; what benefit is there to believing Jesus is God? Regardless of why Jesus said this, he is not God. If Jesus were God, he would not be praying to himself to ask himself to glorify himself with the glory he had with himself before the world was. The sentence plainly shows 1 Being praying to another Being.

A basic problem with trinitarianism is that there are inherent problems in trying to impose a trinitarian interpretation onto unitarian text. You are forced to ask such questions as 'why did Jesus say that,' wanting the answer to be that he must be god. But the problem is, there are unitarian answers that are just as legitimate. That is, the text does not, as trinitarians suppose, necessarily imply the trinity.

For instance, Jeremiah 1:5 states that God knew us before we were born. By extension, he knew Jesus before he was born. God also knows the glory has has in mind for us, Jeremiah 29:11. And by extension, the glory he has in mind for Jesus. Perhaps Jesus has this in mind when he prays for this. Insecure, scared to death, afraid, etc, Jesus was about the immediate future. That Jesus was insecure in his relationship with God cannot be denied since he asked God to pass the bitter cup. It confirms what the Bible repeatedly states explicitly, that Jesus was a man. Why is that not good enough for you?

God does not ask another to change his fate. God is our fate. Jesus' God is the only God. Amen.

 

[Matthias]

It’s easy to search for occurrences of the word “essence” in scripture. Have you done that?

“Essence” (Gk. ousia) occurs only 2 times in scripture.

Strong's Greek: 3776. οὐσία (ousia) -- 2 Occurrences

It isn’t used in reference to God… in scripture.

It is is used in reference to God in post-biblical Church writings.

It’s an important Greek philosophical term.

When someone uses it in reference to God, he or she is - knowingly or unknowingly - using terminology in a way which the NT writers themselves didn’t.

Is that good or is that not good?

The Church - eventually - decided that it is good.

Whatever the reader thinks about that decision is a matter of conscience.

The point that I want to make is that the reader should be aware of where we’re getting it from; and where we’re getting it from isn’t the Bible.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You so love your Strawman arguments.

Feel better now getting all that off your chest? Sounds a bit like sour grapes to me....

If I need correction, may I ask why you feel qualified to deliver it? We will always disagree but character assassination is not warranted in these discussions. When your own knowledge was challenged, you immediately decided to make it personal......why?

Perhaps my offensive posts in defence of your accusations may warrant the ignore button so I won’t offend you with any more of my sharing of scripture. My responses are always detailed because the details are important to me....lack of them leaves subjects open to misinterpretation.

If it’s one thing I have learned about responding to you, it’s.....don’t wrangle with the Wrangler.

 

[Charlie24]

It's telling the trinitarian ran out of arguments. So, he has to invoke all kinds of irrelevant Scripture, hoping something sticks.

This thread is about Col 1:16.

There really is no 'ultimate' answer to why questions. We can have fun speculating. But why does it matter? This was the basic question of another thread that no one gave even close to an honest answer; what benefit is there to believing Jesus is God? Regardless of why Jesus said this, he is not God. If Jesus were God, he would not be praying to himself to ask himself to glorify himself with the glory he had with himself before the world was. The sentence plainly shows 1 Being praying to another Being.

A basic problem with trinitarianism is that there are inherent problems in trying to impose a trinitarian interpretation onto unitarian text. You are forced to ask such questions as 'why did Jesus say that,' wanting the answer to be that he must be god. But the problem is, there are unitarian answers that are just as legitimate. That is, the text does not, as trinitarians suppose, necessarily imply the trinity.

For instance, Jeremiah 1:5 states that God knew us before we were born. By extension, he knew Jesus before he was born. God also knows the glory has has in mind for us, Jeremiah 29:11. And by extension, the glory he has in mind for Jesus. Perhaps Jesus has this in mind when he prays for this. Insecure, scared to death, afraid, etc, Jesus was about the immediate future. That Jesus was insecure in his relationship with God cannot be denied since he asked God to pass the bitter cup. It confirms what the Bible repeatedly states explicitly, that Jesus was a man. Why is that not good enough for you?

God does not ask another to change his fate. God is our fate. Jesus' God is the only God. Amen.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

The benefit is that I don't have a relationship with some random guy the Father anointed to make my redemption possible. I have a relationship with God Himself in Christ. He not only created me, but lowered Himself in shame and died a cruel death that I might be delivered from my sin.

Not some random guy, but God Himself did this for me. Only He could do it and did do it and all because He loved us.

So you can have that relationship with that "other Jesus" if you like, but for me, my Saviour is exactly what Isaiah said He is, the Almighty God. My relationship is with the One who knows my true heart, my thoughts, what I will do and why I do it.

And I'll tell you something else, Wrangler. The One who told Moses to tell the people that "I Am that I Am" has sent you, is the same One, the same voice who said,

I Am the Bread of life.

I Am the Light of the world.

I Am the Door of the sheep.

I Am the good Shepherd.

I Am the Resurrection and the Life.

I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

I Am the True Vine.

Yes, Christ is the Everlasting Father as Isaiah said. And none of it can be explained as the Scripture reveals it.

 

[Matthias]

“Essence” (Gk. ousia) occurs only 2 times in scripture.

Strong's Greek: 3776. οὐσία (ousia) -- 2 Occurrences

It isn’t used in reference to God… in scripture.

It is is used in reference to God in post-biblical Church writings.

It’s an important Greek philosophical term.

When someone uses it in reference to God, he or she is - knowingly or unknowingly - using terminology in a way which the NT writers themselves didn’t.

Is that good or is that not good?

The Church - eventually - decided that it is good.

Whatever the reader thinks about that decision is a matter of conscience.

The point that I want to make is that the reader should be aware of where we’re getting it from; and where we’re getting it from isn’t the Bible.

I’m still trying to pin it down, but it looks like our old friend - the wild man of theology himself, Origen - is the key early figure in it’s use in reference to God.

He certainly isn’t the only one, and it’s in the 4th century when things really get hot with it.

Reading the early Church Fathers is something I wish more people would do.

How did we get here? If we want to know, we can.

A note to readers. When you hear people speaking about ousia in reference to God, you aren’t hearing Jesus and the NT writers. You’re hearing Origen, et. al. from centuries after the times of Jesus and the apostles.

 

[Behold]

It was a vision.

Jesus was in His own Vision?
He had a vision that He was Transfigured?
Really?

And, Over 5 people were in the same Vision, yet the Apostles never said it was a vision when they wrote about it.
They need to talk to you so that you can give them the update, Matthias.

So, It would be great to find out where you read or were told that the Transfiguration was a "vision".

And no, you didn't find that out in a bible., but its very possible that someone told you......"that was a vision".
So, was that your church, commentary, or someone on this forum perhaps?

 

[Matthias]

Jesus was in His own Vision?
He had a vision that He was Transfigured?
Really?

And, Over 5 people were in the same Vision, yet the Apostles never said it was a vision when they wrote about it.
They need to talk to you so that you can give them the update.

So, It would be great to find out where you read or were told that the Transfiguration was a "vision".

And no, you didn't find that out in a bible., but its very possible that someone told you......"that was a vision".
So, was that your church, commentary?

“As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, ‘Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.’”

(Matthew 17:9, NASB)

 

[Behold]

“As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, ‘Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.’”
(Matthew 17:9, NASB)

Thats the KJV word..(vision)....and i agree with it, but, its not the same as we use that word today.
In other words, that word, means..>"what you have seen".
Not, a trancelike state.
You can check other versions and you'll see what i mean, or you can do a Koine Greek Word study.

"vision", in that verses means..>"what you have literally seen"

And in those verses, You see that the apostle was trying to interrupt the Transfiguration, and Jesus corrected him.
Jesus would not leave a Vision to deal with an Apostle who was trying to build alters for Moses and Elijah.