What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."

[Charlie24]

Did you read the article?

No, I have not. I'm responding on what you have said about Dr. Patton.

So I'm not aware of anything he said in the article other than what you have said.

 

[Matthias]

No, I have not. I'm responding on what you have said about Dr. Patton.

So I'm not aware of anything he said in the article other than what you have said.

Thanks. I thought that might be the case.

I provided a link to the article in post #335.

It’s better to hear it directly from the source. The article should answer your question.

 

[Charlie24]

Thanks. I thought that might be the case.

I provided a link to the article in post #335.

It’s better to hear it directly from the source. The article should answer your question.

Just read the article and basically agree with Dr. Patton.

He stresses the need of explaining the wrong views of the Trinity rather than the attempt of what it is.

This is nothing new, I have been in this argument literally hundreds of times.

Every time this subject begins, one will point out to the other "that is not what the Trinity is revealed to be in Scripture."

So what the Trinity is not, is pointed out regularly in the arguments.

There is simply not enough information in Scripture for anyone, no matter how intelligent, to grasp the full meaning of the relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The truth is, God gave us what He wanted us to know and the rest is accepted by faith that no matter what, He is the Almighty God, and even though we don't have all the answers, everything is going to be just fine being in Christ.

 

[Matthias]

Just read the article and basically agree with Dr. Patton.

He stresses the need of explaining the wrong views of the Trinity rather than the attempt of what it is.

This is nothing new, I have been in this argument literally hundreds of times.

Every time this subject begins, one will point out to the other "that is not what the Trinity is revealed to be in Scripture."

So what the Trinity is not, is pointed out regularly in the arguments.

There is simply not enough information in Scripture for anyone, no matter how intelligent, to grasp the full meaning of the relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The truth is, God gave us what He wanted us to know and the rest is accepted by faith that no matter what, He is the Almighty God, and even though we don't have all the answers, everything is going to be just fine being in Christ.

When I was teaching, I used the article as a handout to my students. They were trinitarians and non-trinitarians. I thought then, and still think now, that it was / is beneficial to all.

 

[Charlie24]

When I was teaching, I used the article as a handout to my students. They were trinitarians and non-trinitarians. I thought then, and still think now, that it was / is beneficial to all.

I certainly agree you did a good thing! There is always more to be learned and understood from a teaching atmosphere rather than an argument based discussion.

 

[Aunty Jane]

John most certainly seen a Trinity when he wrote, "there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, these three are One."

Have you ever looked up this verse in any other English translation other than the KJV based Bibles?
These words do not exist...they were added later to promote a trinity.

1 John 5:7-8.....
NASB... “For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.”

ASV... “And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.”

ESV... “And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.”

See here in the Mounce Interlinear.....
“For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in accord.”

The addition in the KJV is bogus.....it was never in the original manuscripts. You have no idea how corrupt your favoured church system became very early in Christian history. The trinity did not even become official church doctrine until the latter part of the 4th century.....what is that telling you?

Trinities at that time, only existed in pagan religions....apostasy was foretold by Jesus and his apostles and this defection was snapping at the heels of the apostles when they were still alive, but Paul informs us that the apostles restrained the apostasy from becoming full blown until “men were sleeping” as Jesus indicated about the “weeds” that the devil planted. The “weeds” took over the whole world by feeding their ignorant flocks a corrupted form of counterfeit “Christianity” after the last apostle (John) died. The restraint was gone.

2 Thessalonians 2:2, 3, 6,7.....
“2 However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him . . . .3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction . . . 6 And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way.”

The “lawlessness” was the introduction of apostate ideas that actually took centuries to become officially accepted into church doctrine.....like....the trinity....immortality of the soul.....and hellfire....none of which originated with the Father or his son.

If you know what these “weeds” were in Jesus’ parable, you will see the illustration as Jesus’ Jewish audience saw it. It makes perfect sense. The “weed” is believed to be “bearded darnell”...a poisonous weed that looks exactly like wheat in its early growing stages, so that it was impossible to tell them apart until the plants were well established.....but by then, the root system had become intertwined and removing them meant uprooting the “wheat” along with them, which is why Jesus said to allow them to “grow together” until “the harvest” time, when the difference would become obvious. Only then would the “separation” take place. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42)

The “church” that provided your doctrines is not the one that Christ started. The Bible explains why...if your mind and heart are open. Please don’t close them.

Contrary to popular belief, no one can explain this three in One. We can only guess!

“This three in one” was never even in the minds of Christ and his apostles, so guessing about how it can be explained is a wasted exercise......it is messing with the very nature of God....presenting something that the God of Israel never stated, just the opposite in fact.....Deuteronomy 6:4 was the Shema.....recited by the Jews daily. “One God”...not three.

If Jesus never once said that he was “God” and his apostles never once said that they believed that he was the Almighty come in mortal flesh, (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) who benefits from inventing “this three in one” god. Who has always wanted to lead people away from God by telling lies? Getting people to break God’s law means separating them from God by convincing them that a lie is truth.....what a victory for satan!...just like he did in Eden. History is repeating right under people’s noses but they are blinded. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

What does Jesus say to those he rejects at the judgment?.... “I never knew you, get away from me you workers of lawlessness” (Matthew 7:21-23)
Can you see how these would be breaking God’s law without actually knowing it? This is the only “Christianity” that people know. Hopelessly divided and disagreeing on everything but the lies masquerading as truth in their accepted doctrines.....true Christianity is about unity, not division. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

If “Christians” put two other “gods” in the Father’s place, they have broken the first Commandment.
How important is that to you? Why do you think it was the “FIRST” Commandment that God gave his people?

 

[Charlie24]

Have you ever looked up this verse in any other English translation other than the KJV based Bibles?
These words do not exist...they were added later to promote a trinity.

1 John 5:7-8.....
NASB... “For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.”

ASV... “And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.”

ESV... “And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.”

See here in the Mounce Interlinear.....
“For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in accord.”

The addition in the KJV is bogus.....it was never in the original manuscripts. You have no idea how corrupt your favoured church system became very early in Christian history. The trinity did not even become official church doctrine until the latter part of the 4th century.....what is that telling you?

Trinities at that time, only existed in pagan religions....apostasy was foretold by Jesus and his apostles and this defection was snapping at the heels of the apostles when they were still alive, but Paul informs us that the apostles restrained the apostasy from becoming full blown until “men were sleeping” as Jesus indicated about the “weeds” that the devil planted. The “weeds” took over the whole world by feeding their ignorant flocks a corrupted form of counterfeit “Christianity” after the last apostle (John) died. The restraint was gone.

2 Thessalonians 2:2, 3, 6,7.....
“2 However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him . . . .3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction . . . 6 And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way.”

The “lawlessness” was the introduction of apostate ideas that actually took centuries to become officially accepted into church doctrine.....like....the trinity....immortality of the soul.....and hellfire....none of which originated with the Father or his son.

If you know what these “weeds” were in Jesus’ parable, you will see the illustration as Jesus’ Jewish audience saw it. It makes perfect sense. The “weed” is believed to be “bearded darnell”...a poisonous weed that looks exactly like wheat in its early growing stages, so that it was impossible to tell them apart until the plants were well established.....but by then, the root system had become intertwined and removing them meant uprooting the “wheat” along with them, which is why Jesus said to allow them to “grow together” until “the harvest” time, when the difference would become obvious. Only then would the “separation” take place. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42)

The “church” that provided your doctrines is not the one that Christ started. The Bible explains why...if your mind and heart are open. Please don’t close them.


“This three in one” was never even in the minds of Christ and his apostles, so guessing about how it can be explained is a wasted exercise......it is messing with the very nature of God....presenting something that the God of Israel never stated, just the opposite in fact.....Deuteronomy 6:4 was the Shema.....recited by the Jews daily. “One God”...not three.

If Jesus never once said that he was “God” and his apostles never once said that they believed that he was the Almighty come in mortal flesh, (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) who benefits from inventing “this three in one” god. Who has always wanted to lead people away from God by telling lies? Getting people to break God’s law means separating them from God by convincing them that a lie is truth.....what a victory for satan!...just like he did in Eden. History is repeating right under people’s noses but they are blinded. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

What does Jesus say to those he rejects at the judgment?.... “I never knew you, get away from me you workers of lawlessness” (Matthew 7:21-23)
Can you see how these would be breaking God’s law without actually knowing it? This is the only “Christianity” that people know. Hopelessly divided and disagreeing on everything but the lies masquerading as truth in their accepted doctrines.....true Christianity is about unity, not division. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

If “Christians” put two other “gods” in the Father’s place, they have broken the first Commandment.
How important is that to you? Why do you think it was the “FIRST” Commandment that God gave his people?

Yes, I'm very much aware that verse is marked as an add in. But how and why? This argument that has raged for centuries.

In Defense of the Authenticity of 1 John 5:7 (A review) – AV1611 Blog

In Defense of the Authenticity of 1 John 5:7 (A review)

"No verse of sacred writ has endured more assault than this wonderful testimony of the Heavenly Witnesses:

1 John 5:7 (KJV) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Obviously a clear proclamation of the triune nature of God, and a verse in partnership with John 10:30, it came under attack by Arians and other deniers of Christ’s deity soon after it was provided by the Holy Spirit. Due to this early and unrelenting violence against God’s revealed word in this verse, it is missing from the majority of Greek manuscripts (though not all).

Naturally, God’s promise to preserve his words was never in danger of breach of contract, and the true wording of this valuable passage, now called by many the Johannine Comma, survived in thousands of copies and translations. Early editors of Greek New Testaments included the text as genuine, even if only after publishing inadequate editions that left it out, because among the believing Church there was never any widespread doubt as to its genuineness before the 19th century.

After the insidious Drs. Westcott and Hort crafted a new profane, materialistic methodology for examining the text of the Bible, their concocted New Testament Text was thrust upon the Church as they sought to overturn the testimony of the Holy Spirit of 18 centuries. Their text was a compilation of readings which included many of the rejected and false variants scoured from ignored and useless manuscripts that survived if for no reason other than their lack of use, and combined to form a new “Bible” that no church prior to the late 19th century had ever possessed, copied, or read. This garbage text (some of which was, quite literally, rescued from a trash can in a monastery by Tischendorf) became the basis if the English Revised Version of 1885 and the American Standard Version of 1901.

Read the rest to get the other side of the story.

 

[RLT63]

Yes, I'm very much aware that verse is marked as an add in. But how and why? This argument that has raged for centuries.

In Defense of the Authenticity of 1 John 5:7 (A review) – AV1611 Blog

In Defense of the Authenticity of 1 John 5:7 (A review)

"No verse of sacred writ has endured more assault than this wonderful testimony of the Heavenly Witnesses:

1 John 5:7 (KJV) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Obviously a clear proclamation of the triune nature of God, and a verse in partnership with John 10:30, it came under attack by Arians and other deniers of Christ’s deity soon after it was provided by the Holy Spirit. Due to this early and unrelenting violence against God’s revealed word in this verse, it is missing from the majority of Greek manuscripts (though not all).

Naturally, God’s promise to preserve his words was never in danger of breach of contract, and the true wording of this valuable passage, now called by many the Johannine Comma, survived in thousands of copies and translations. Early editors of Greek New Testaments included the text as genuine, even if only after publishing inadequate editions that left it out, because among the believing Church there was never any widespread doubt as to its genuineness before the 19th century.

After the insidious Drs. Westcott and Hort crafted a new profane, materialistic methodology for examining the text of the Bible, their concocted New Testament Text was thrust upon the Church as they sought to overturn the testimony of the Holy Spirit of 18 centuries. Their text was a compilation of readings which included many of the rejected and false variants scoured from ignored and useless manuscripts that survived if for no reason other than their lack of use, and combined to form a new “Bible” that no church prior to the late 19th century had ever possessed, copied, or read. This garbage text (some of which was, quite literally, rescued from a trash can in a monastery by Tischendorf) became the basis if the English Revised Version of 1885 and the American Standard Version of 1901.

Read the rest to get the other side of the story.

The Codex Siniaticus was found in papers that were going to be burned so you could say it was found in the trash.

 

[Peterlag]

Yes but God is the gardener.



Jesus is the son not the father. (Isaiah was not referring to the Messiah when he said, not what a man IS, but what a man will be called.) Jesus is not referred to as the father once in the NT. So, I think you know Jesus is not actually the father.

You got me thinking about this when you said someone told you those who believe in the trinity do not have the fruit of the spirit. For that to be true it would mean they don't have the spirit of God. SO I asked this to another guy on here...
"Can the person who totally wiped out the Christ be saved? Can you have the spirit of God if you do not know who Jesus Christ is?"

Part of what he wrote back was this...

"It's not just who is the right Jesus Christ. It's even more importantly who is the right Father. If he is not God alone and only a member of a god, then no, that person CANNOT know who and why they believe in his Son! As far as I'm concerned they cannot possess the Father's Spirit within them because they do not even know who he is. How can the Son know them upon resurrection in the future if they do not know or never knew his Father?!! They cannot of course."

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, I'm very much aware that verse is marked as an add in. But how and why? This argument that has raged for centuries.

In Defense of the Authenticity of 1 John 5:7 (A review) – AV1611 Blog

In Defense of the Authenticity of 1 John 5:7 (A review)

"No verse of sacred writ has endured more assault than this wonderful testimony of the Heavenly Witnesses:

1 John 5:7 (KJV) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Obviously a clear proclamation of the triune nature of God, and a verse in partnership with John 10:30, it came under attack by Arians and other deniers of Christ’s deity soon after it was provided by the Holy Spirit. Due to this early and unrelenting violence against God’s revealed word in this verse, it is missing from the majority of Greek manuscripts (though not all).

Naturally, God’s promise to preserve his words was never in danger of breach of contract, and the true wording of this valuable passage, now called by many the Johannine Comma, survived in thousands of copies and translations. Early editors of Greek New Testaments included the text as genuine, even if only after publishing inadequate editions that left it out, because among the believing Church there was never any widespread doubt as to its genuineness before the 19th century.

After the insidious Drs. Westcott and Hort crafted a new profane, materialistic methodology for examining the text of the Bible, their concocted New Testament Text was thrust upon the Church as they sought to overturn the testimony of the Holy Spirit of 18 centuries. Their text was a compilation of readings which included many of the rejected and false variants scoured from ignored and useless manuscripts that survived if for no reason other than their lack of use, and combined to form a new “Bible” that no church prior to the late 19th century had ever possessed, copied, or read. This garbage text (some of which was, quite literally, rescued from a trash can in a monastery by Tischendorf) became the basis if the English Revised Version of 1885 and the American Standard Version of 1901.

Read the rest to get the other side of the story.

I have read all sides of the story and the only conclusion I can come to in the big picture is that if Christ never once said he was God incarnate....and the apostles never once said that their God was anyone other than the Father, (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) so an apostle church is not going to introduce ideas long after Christ’s death, to convince me that this lie is the truth.....

Those who oppose the devil and expose his deceptions will be met with stiff opposition (as Jesus and his disciples experienced)....but the truth remains the truth no matter what anyone says or believes. Christ is the judge, and by his own admission, “many” will try to excuse their errors but it will be too late to mend their ways. (Matthew 7:21-23) Their fate is sealed since they have had ample time to respond to the truth when they heard it. This is why Jesus sent his disciples out to preach about his Kingdom....how else were they going to hear the message? (Romans 10:13-15) If it was simply the actions of the holy spirit on the individuals then God could have spoken to everyone directly....but he didn't. How do we know? Because all those who claim to be informed by the holy spirit disagree with one another.....God does not speak with a forked tongue.
But we know the devil does....

I will go with the Bible every time. It does not, and never has taught that God is three separate persons in one “godhead”. That word does not exist in Greek and was invented by trinitarians to promote their doctrine. How anyone gets "godhead" from "fullness of deity" is beyond me.

The fact that the son is “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15) means that like all images, he is a reflection of the original. Like an image of you in a photograph is not you, but shows others what you look like. Jesus showed us the Father in his word and actions.....not because he was God.

 

[Peterlag]

I have read all sides of the story and the only conclusion I can come to in the big picture is that if Christ never once said he was God incarnate....and the apostles never once said that their God was anyone other than the Father, (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) so an apostle church is not going to introduce ideas long after Christ’s death, to convince me that this lie is the truth.....

Those who oppose the devil and expose his deceptions will be met with stiff opposition (as Jesus and his disciples experienced)....but the truth remains the truth no matter what anyone says or believes. Christ is the judge, and by his own admission, “many” will try to excuse their errors but it will be too late to mend their ways. (Matthew 7:21-23) Their fate is sealed since they have had ample time to respond to the truth when they heard it. This is why Jesus sent his disciples out to preach about his Kingdom....how else were they going to hear the message? (Romans 10:13-15) If it was simply the actions of the holy spirit on the individuals then God could have spoken to everyone directly....but he didn't. How do we know? Because all those who claim to be informed by the holy spirit disagree with one another.....God does not speak with a forked tongue.
But we know the devil does....

I will go with the Bible every time. It does not, and never has taught that God is three separate persons in one “godhead”. That word does not exist in Greek and was invented by trinitarians to promote their doctrine. How anyone gets "godhead" from "fullness of deity" is beyond me.

The fact that the son is “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15) means that like all images, he is a reflection of the original. Like an image of you in a photograph is not you, but shows others what you look like. Jesus showed us the Father in his word and actions.....not because he was God.

Well written. I could not have written it any better myself. May I add one question? Is the word "deity" in the Bible?

 

[Peterlag]

Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

 

[RLT63]

I have read all sides of the story and the only conclusion I can come to in the big picture is that if Christ never once said he was God incarnate....and the apostles never once said that their God was anyone other than the Father, (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) so an apostle church is not going to introduce ideas long after Christ’s death, to convince me that this lie is the truth.....

Those who oppose the devil and expose his deceptions will be met with stiff opposition (as Jesus and his disciples experienced)....but the truth remains the truth no matter what anyone says or believes. Christ is the judge, and by his own admission, “many” will try to excuse their errors but it will be too late to mend their ways. (Matthew 7:21-23) Their fate is sealed since they have had ample time to respond to the truth when they heard it. This is why Jesus sent his disciples out to preach about his Kingdom....how else were they going to hear the message? (Romans 10:13-15) If it was simply the actions of the holy spirit on the individuals then God could have spoken to everyone directly....but he didn't. How do we know? Because all those who claim to be informed by the holy spirit disagree with one another.....God does not speak with a forked tongue.
But we know the devil does....

I will go with the Bible every time. It does not, and never has taught that God is three separate persons in one “godhead”. That word does not exist in Greek and was invented by trinitarians to promote their doctrine. How anyone gets "godhead" from "fullness of deity" is beyond me.

The fact that the son is “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15) means that like all images, he is a reflection of the original. Like an image of you in a photograph is not you, but shows others what you look like. Jesus showed us the Father in his word and actions.....not because he was God.

What an evil God that would allow most of those who believe in him to perish. Who are these people who cry " Lord, Lord" since you say there is no resurrection for the lost?

 

[RLT63]

Well written. I could not have written it any better myself. May I add one question? Is the word "deity" in the Bible?

Deity appears in 7 versions. The most being in the NET Genesis 1:1 (NET)

 

[RLT63]

Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

It's amazing how many hoops you will jump through to deny what the Bible clearly says.

 

[Charlie24]

I have read all sides of the story and the only conclusion I can come to in the big picture is that if Christ never once said he was God incarnate....and the apostles never once said that their God was anyone other than the Father, (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) so an apostle church is not going to introduce ideas long after Christ’s death, to convince me that this lie is the truth.....

Those who oppose the devil and expose his deceptions will be met with stiff opposition (as Jesus and his disciples experienced)....but the truth remains the truth no matter what anyone says or believes. Christ is the judge, and by his own admission, “many” will try to excuse their errors but it will be too late to mend their ways. (Matthew 7:21-23) Their fate is sealed since they have had ample time to respond to the truth when they heard it. This is why Jesus sent his disciples out to preach about his Kingdom....how else were they going to hear the message? (Romans 10:13-15) If it was simply the actions of the holy spirit on the individuals then God could have spoken to everyone directly....but he didn't. How do we know? Because all those who claim to be informed by the holy spirit disagree with one another.....God does not speak with a forked tongue.
But we know the devil does....

I will go with the Bible every time. It does not, and never has taught that God is three separate persons in one “godhead”. That word does not exist in Greek and was invented by trinitarians to promote their doctrine. How anyone gets "godhead" from "fullness of deity" is beyond me.

The fact that the son is “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15) means that like all images, he is a reflection of the original. Like an image of you in a photograph is not you, but shows others what you look like. Jesus showed us the Father in his word and actions.....not because he was God.

OK, I've shown you that Paul and John both declare Christ as the Creator.

You refuse to believe that Creator is deity. How that is possible, I don't know.

Believe what you will, there comes a point where one is just banging their head against the wall!

 

[RLT63]

OK, I've shown you that Paul and John both declare Christ as the Creator.

You refuse to believe that Creator is deity. How that is possible, I don't know.

Believe what you will, there comes a point where one is just banging their head against the wall!

Yes God must be truly evil to let the majority of people who believe in him be deceived and only the JWs have it right.

 

[Matthias]

Just read the article and basically agree with Dr. Patton.

He stresses the need of explaining the wrong views of the Trinity rather than the attempt of what it is.

This is nothing new, I have been in this argument literally hundreds of times.

Every time this subject begins, one will point out to the other "that is not what the Trinity is revealed to be in Scripture."

So what the Trinity is not, is pointed out regularly in the arguments.

There is simply not enough information in Scripture for anyone, no matter how intelligent, to grasp the full meaning of the relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The truth is, God gave us what He wanted us to know and the rest is accepted by faith that no matter what, He is the Almighty God, and even though we don't have all the answers, everything is going to be just fine being in Christ.

All analogies of the Trinity give a wrong view of the Trinity.

The Trinity isn’t revealed in scripture.

The truth is Jesus is the answer. His God isn’t the Trinity.

 

[Mr E]

I have read all sides of the story and the only conclusion I can come to in the big picture is that if Christ never once said he was God incarnate....and the apostles never once said that their God was anyone other than the Father, (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) so an apostle church is not going to introduce ideas long after Christ’s death, to convince me that this lie is the truth.....

Are you consistent with this standard? An honest question...

“If Christ never once said....”

Did Jesus ever say that he was the archangel Michael?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Well written. I could not have written it any better myself. May I add one question? Is the word "deity" in the Bible?

The word in Greek is "theotēs" and it appears only once in scripture. It can mean either 'deity' or 'divinity'..... is not like the word "theos" which is translated "god or goddess", a general term for beings that are worshipped or who have divine authority.
"Theotēs" was grabbed by trinitarians and translated with the word "godhead" in English. There is no such thing as a "godhead" in scripture.